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Gunner C
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« Reply #100 on: February 07, 2009, 11:43:39 AM »

Perhaps sir, but I think it's still in the same spirit.

It's a volunteer organization. If you disagree with a regulation, push for a change.
Or leave.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #101 on: February 07, 2009, 03:48:22 PM »

Quote
But the second there's a regulation we don't agree with, it's "unrealistic."
There is a big difference in agreeing with the spirit of a regulation and understanding the severe limitations CAP has in enforcing compliance with any particular regulation. 

Using my example, I might actually think it is a great idea for CAP members to wear purple underwear underneath our uniforms, but as a thinking adult I understand that it is someething that we're not going to be able to enforce.  And if something can't be enforced, then maybe having that rule is a waste of time. 

Yes, in an ideal world everyone would follow every regulation based on their sense of honor.  However, that is not ever going to happen.  Hence, we have police officers, and in CAP we have compliance inspections, IGs, etc.   So, at some point you have to sit down and think about every part of a regulation and say to yourself, "Can this really work?".

By the way, these are just general observations on regulatory theory.  I don't have a particular opinion about this particular thread topic.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2009, 04:04:05 PM »

I dont mind cadets dating.  I dont promote it, but Im not going to loose sleep over it.  But they need to keep it away from the meeting and activities.  Its also good to know about it when you see 17 yr old C/Col. Joe Smith and 16 yr old C/Capt. Jenny Jones walking away for a staff meeting 3 times per meeting.
Think about it, a bunch of teenagers? Good luck actually enforcing it.  Especially when most cadets live in the same communities and go to school together.  If they are inappropriate, lock them on.  On the other hand, if you know an older cadet who is keeping their CAP relationship in check, pull him/her aside and tell them you appreciate how professional they are conducting themselves.  I specify older.  Whatever your definition is.   I dont personally advocate telling 13 yr old A1C that. 
Personally, if I find out about your CAP relationship based on your actions at CAP, there is a problem.  When I was a cadet, my high school girlfriend joined CAP. I was a C/FO (Flight Officer for you youngins') and she was a C/B.  As a teenager, we wernt going to break up because she joined. But we were also both in JROTC and kept it away from CAP.   A good sign of maturity in cadets is when they can keep their emotions in check at the right times.  Social Awareness.  You dont ALWAYS need to have your hand on her or him!  Hey...sounds like a class for a Chaplain.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 04:12:04 PM by Flying Pig » Report to moderator   Logged
JoeTomasone
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« Reply #103 on: February 07, 2009, 04:43:56 PM »


I can't believe that this is still being debated.


The regs are pretty clear:

Prohibited:  Cadet/Senior dating.

Discouraged:  Cadet/Cadet dating when the cadets are of significantly different grades or when one is in the chain of command of the other.


When do you enforce the Cadet/Cadet dating issue?  When it is both known and becomes a problem.   If Cadet Major Jones (the Cadet Commander) is dating Cadet Captain Smith and it's not causing problems with favoritism, insubordination, etc, then it's not hurting anything.    If it becomes an issue, then you deal with it.   Same if Cadet Smith is a Cadet Airman who just joined a while ago.

If Cadet Jones is in line to become the Cadet Commander and you think that the relationship might cause issues, then you let Cadet Jones know that getting and keeping the position is dependent on it not being the cause of issues.    If that happens, you fix it.


Obviously you cannot (and should not) regulate what Cadets do on their own time.   But you can certainly can (and should) mitigate any detrimental effects on the Unit.   


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Pumbaa
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« Reply #104 on: February 07, 2009, 09:29:39 PM »

Thanks Joe, it only took 103 posts to get my answer.
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JoeTomasone
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« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2009, 01:56:19 AM »

Thanks Joe, it only took 103 posts to get my answer.

Actually, you had it in post two.   I just rehashed and added some color to the quote I posted way back then.

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Earhart1971
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« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2009, 02:18:11 AM »

kids will be kids.... just keep it under control.... and yes I dated my fair share of female cadets when I was a cadet

Pretty much: What happens on NON CAP TIME is not CAPs business. I tell Cadets no touching or PDA on a CAP site or function. If you date keep it off CAP TIME and away from CAP site and buildings. What happens off duty at the Movie Theater or elsewhere is between you, your friend and your parents and God.  And use some common sense.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2009, 02:26:36 AM »

kids will be kids.... just keep it under control.... and yes I dated my fair share of female cadets when I was a cadet

Pretty much: What happens on NON CAP TIME is not CAPs business. I tell Cadets no touching or PDA on a CAP site or function. If you date keep it off CAP TIME and away from CAP site and buildings. What happens off duty at the Movie Theater or elsewhere is between you, your friend and your parents and God.  And use some common sense.

Spin again, or re-read this thread.  Plenty of what happens on non-CAP time is potentially open to disciplinary action internal to CAP, with the potential for civil liability and even criminal penalties.

Some of it is relevant to this dating discussion, some relevant to operations, and some just "What were you thinking?", but it is what it is.  I won't spin the thread with examples of the hair-brained / lights off things cadets and seniors do that gets them in trouble with CAP even though they are "off duty", but bear in mind the line if not so bright, especially if what you do involves a uniform, COV or other equipment.
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Earhart1971
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« Reply #108 on: April 08, 2009, 04:26:18 AM »

CAP and off duty time is seperate. What is the point of CAP trying to expand liability to CAP or a Squadron Commander, after or off duty, away from Civil Air Patrol?

There is no way a Squadron Commander can control two Cadets with Drivers licenses from driving away from a meeting and then having a date. How you going to stop that? Again, Common Sense.





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DBlair
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« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2009, 05:29:42 AM »

I can't believe that this is still being debated.


The regs are pretty clear:

Prohibited:  Cadet/Senior dating.

Discouraged:  Cadet/Cadet dating when the cadets are of significantly different grades or when one is in the chain of command of the other.


When do you enforce the Cadet/Cadet dating issue?  When it is both known and becomes a problem.   If Cadet Major Jones (the Cadet Commander) is dating Cadet Captain Smith and it's not causing problems with favoritism, insubordination, etc, then it's not hurting anything.    If it becomes an issue, then you deal with it.   Same if Cadet Smith is a Cadet Airman who just joined a while ago.

If Cadet Jones is in line to become the Cadet Commander and you think that the relationship might cause issues, then you let Cadet Jones know that getting and keeping the position is dependent on it not being the cause of issues.    If that happens, you fix it.


Obviously you cannot (and should not) regulate what Cadets do on their own time.   But you can certainly can (and should) mitigate any detrimental effects on the Unit.   

Well said/explained.

I'll add another scenario I've seen before that needs to be handled carefully...

If two potential/new Cadets join a unit and are open about the fact that they are dating, then a quick explanation should be provided that once they are at a CAP function or in uniform, any 'relationship' is to be put aside and they must behave as if they were any other Cadet.

While this would often seem straightforward, I've seen times where it was left unexplained and so the 'couple' claimed the policy was never explained to them when a SM later confronted them about their behavior. Sometimes, a bit of proactive problem-solving can be helpful.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 01:46:47 PM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
DANIEL BLAIR, Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #110 on: April 08, 2009, 06:17:43 AM »

CAP and off duty time is seperate. What is the point of CAP trying to expand liability to CAP or a Squadron Commander, after or off duty, away from Civil Air Patrol?

There is no way a Squadron Commander can control two Cadets with Drivers licenses from driving away from a meeting and then having a date. How you going to stop that? Again, Common Sense.

The above is not against the rules, however if it happens to be illegal because of the cadets' ages (i.e. one's 14 and one's 18, etc.), and the Squadron Commander finds out, different deal - held responsible for reporting it both inside and outside CAP in many states.

My point was not the specific situation, but the fact that that the bright line people believe exists between CAP "on" and "off" duty time, is not as bright and clear as they think it is.

Most examples would take this thread off-topic.
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Pingree1492
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« Reply #111 on: April 08, 2009, 06:04:54 PM »

My point was not the specific situation, but the fact that that the bright line people believe exists between CAP "on" and "off" duty time, is not as bright and clear as they think it is.

^+1

If you are an adult (cadet or senior), holding a leadership position within your squadron (but especially if you're a senior), then you are a "person in a place of trust".  If you are dating a younger cadet, and things go south, then you could be facing some very serious charges, with potential for hefty prison time. 

Here's a recent example.  I don't know anything other than this person was a former cadet and is no longer in CAP, as I was not involved in any way in this other than reading the article, and it's not in my squadron.  I'm not putting this link on here to debate what happened, as there is still an investigation going on, and there is no other information available, so please, please, please, don't go down that road. 

Just take a look at the headline- how would YOU like to see it in your local paper, eh?  My blood ran cold when I saw it- yours probably will too.  http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2009/mar/13/former-civil-air-patrol-officer-accused-sexually-a/

Tread carefully out there, and be sure to report properly- you'll regret it if you don't.
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« Reply #112 on: April 08, 2009, 07:04:29 PM »

Technically it was impossible for him to be a Lieutenant at 20, as this is the age of flight officer transition grades. But he has brought shame to his squadron and his morals are questionable. I'm glad to see that CAP put CPPT in place for this type of situation.

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Jorvon Brison, SFO, CAP
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cap235629
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« Reply #113 on: April 08, 2009, 11:30:47 PM »

Technically it was impossible for him to be a Lieutenant at 20,

Uh wrong, FO is not required, can be a cadet until 21st birthday.

The article is poorly written.  He was a CADET officer in a CADET squadron
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 11:35:15 PM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
Bill Hobbs, Major, CAP
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« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2009, 04:02:57 AM »

Technically it was impossible for him to be a Lieutenant at 20,

Uh wrong, FO is not required, can be a cadet until 21st birthday.

The article is poorly written.  He was a CADET officer in a CADET squadron

Based on the information given.  ;D but thanks for the update.
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Jorvon Brison, SFO, CAP
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