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Author Topic: Is there a speed limit for CAP vehicles with cadets on board?  (Read 8799 times)
ascorbate
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« on: December 12, 2008, 01:43:04 PM »

Do the CAP regulations specifiy a maximum speed limit that a CAP senior officer can operate a CAP vehicle at.... with CAP cadets on board?
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 01:45:18 PM »

National, no - it says operate within legal posted speed limits.  However, I have seen wing supplements that restricted 15 passenger vans to posted speed limit or 55 MPH maximum.
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
ascorbate
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 01:48:29 PM »

How would I determine if a wing supplement exists and over-rides the national standard?

Also, in some states like mine, the interstate highway speed limit is 65 MPH... would this then be the national limit in my state?
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Dr. Mark A. Kukucka, Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 02:01:26 PM »

Wing supplements are supposed to be published publicly, and most require NHQ approval.  MOst Wings have them on their
web site(s).

Otherwise, the person to check with is your unit's LGT, through the chain to the Wing LGT.

A quick check of Maryland's web site does seem to indicate there are some published supplements - SAREX activities in the calendar reference 60-series supplements, but it appears you need an ID to access them.

If you see them, you might want to mention to those gents from Group II that we don't wear grade on our baseball caps.  >:D
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 02:04:54 PM »

Also, in some states like mine, the interstate highway speed limit is 65 MPH... would this then be the national limit in my state?

CAP NHQ and your state law requires you to not exceed posted speed limits.  So in MD, where the interstate says 65MPH, (unless there is a supplement stating otherwise) the fastest you would be permitted to go is 65 MPH - regardless of who's on board.

If you were to cross the AL state line though, where there are sections posted 70 MPH, you can do 70, unless otherwise told not to.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 02:14:51 PM »

A 12- or 15- 11-pack fully-loaded isn't going to be able to safely go much faster than 65, but those mini-vans don't really have that limitation, and we all know "Maj. Leadfoot" who thinks he has to be first on scene or to the conference.

considering all the other regs, I'm surprised there aren't logs, etc., that show how long it took point-to-point, and like OTR truckers, if you get there too fast, its an issue.
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ascorbate
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 02:28:24 PM »

I found the following Maryland Wing Supplements that don't mention anything about speed limits:

CAPR 60-3  - Maryland Wing Supplement #1 dated 18 September 06 and approved by CAP/NHQ

CAPR 39-1  - Maryland Wing Supplement approved by CAP/MER

I also found on the wing website "15 Passenger Van Safety" that would be revelant but it makes no mention of observing posted speed limit(s) or not exceeding a posted speed limit.
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ascorbate
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 02:42:33 PM »

Since I don't seem to be able to locate any over-riding Maryland Wing regs/supplements, what national regulation would cover operating a CAP van within the posted speed limit, what is considered a speeding infraction, how does one properly report an infraction and who has primary responsibility for reporting observed infractions since I only know of this alleged infraction (14 MPH over the posted highway speed limit) secondhand?
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Dr. Mark A. Kukucka, Lt Col, CAP
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notaNCO forever
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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 02:46:18 PM »

 If you don't know for a fact that the speeding infraction was committed I would not report it. You could encourage the person that was there at the time of the infraction to report it.
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ascorbate
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 02:55:19 PM »

If you don't know for a fact that the speeding infraction was committed I would not report it. You could encourage the person that was there at the time of the infraction to report it.

AGREED.... I have already told the senior officer involved that he has a "responsibility" to report this violation!

But because he told me about it, I now feel like I have a responsibility to insure that he *does* report it considering the highway speeds supposedly involved with CAP cadets in tow.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 02:56:33 PM »

What national regulation would cover operating a CAP van within the posted speed limit

77-1 : Operation and Maintenance of Civil Air Patrol Vehicles
Quote

5. ...Vehicle operators will:
a. Operate COVs in strict compliance with federal, state, commonwealth, local laws, regulations, and ordinances governing the operation of motor vehicles.

g. Operators of all vehicles, but especially 15 passenger vans, should not make sharp turns, use excessive speed and should avoid abrupt maneuvers.


Quote
what is considered a speeding infraction?

Any time that someone exceeds the posted speed limit or violates a state speed law.

Quote
how does one properly report an infraction and who has primary responsibility for reporting observed infractions since I only know of this alleged infraction (14 MPH over the posted highway speed limit) secondhand?

If someone has told you that a specific operator is driving unsafely, you have a responsibility to notify that persons unit commander.  Let them know what someone told you and they can figure out how to deal with the information provided.  
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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 03:13:16 PM »

But because he told me about it, I now feel like I have a responsibility to insure that he *does* report it considering the highway speeds supposedly involved with CAP cadets in tow.

A second hand report of speeding that "supposedly" involved cadets is not likely to get a lot of attention.

Also, don't assume that because you haven't heard back about the report or consequences, none was made.

Since it wasn't you involved, and you advised whom you believed was responsible to report it, your work is done.  All you can do from there is be diligent yourself if you are involved with this driver again.
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ascorbate
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 03:25:25 PM »


 ...your work is done. 



This is the part that I am struggling with! And that is why I posted my original question in this forum.

The senior officer involved has not reported anything thus far. At this point, I want to provide this senior officer with the necessary info to properly report this infraction.... if it really is report-worthy.... which I think it is!
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2008, 03:45:36 PM »

People report things that they didn't witness first hand all the time.  To me this is like being an encampment TAC officer and having your cadets come back from an event telling you that the guy driving the van was swerving and speeding and running stop lights.

Or, how about your child coming home and telling you that the school bus driver was driving like a crazy person?  I'm sure you'd report that.

You didn't witness it, but wouldn't you agree that you have an obligation to at least notify the persons commander that you have reports of the driver driving wrecklessly? 

From there though - there isn't much you can do.  The commander can find out what's going on and prohibit the person from driving or give them a warning.

 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 03:53:06 PM »

If the people involved did not feel it warranted a report, the likelihood that anything would come of it is slim to none.

I'm not saying don't report it.  If your conscious is bothering you send a quick note to the person's CC, and move on.

Just don't expect earth-shattering consequences for a second-hand report of speeding.
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Sleepwalker
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2008, 05:29:03 PM »

   Whether or not something was "done" or not, you still might have done some good.  Even if the person was only talked to, then the guy will probably realize he is being watched and not speed any more.   
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A Thiarna, déan trócaire
davedove
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2008, 11:02:36 PM »

If you see them, you might want to mention to those gents from Group II that we don't wear grade on our baseball caps.  >:D

Although it's off topic, Maryland Wing has an approved supplement authorizing those caps with the grade.  I don't particularly care for it, but it is approved.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 11:19:12 PM »

If you see them, you might want to mention to those gents from Group II that we don't wear grade on our baseball caps.  >:D

Although it's off topic, Maryland Wing has an approved supplement authorizing those caps with the grade.  I don't particularly care for it, but it is approved.

By NHQ?  Doubt it.
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Pingree1492
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2008, 05:48:26 PM »

I think creating a "National Speed Limit" would be very bad idea.  As long as you are operating the vehicle in a safe manner, and observing the posted speed limit, then there should be no problem.  The speed limit on CO highways is 75 MPH.  If National came out with a reg saying I couldn't drive faster than 55 MPH, then that would create a dangerous situation in itself, as I'd be going 20 MPH slower than the surrounding traffic, and just in general creating a mess. 

You didn't witness it, but wouldn't you agree that you have an obligation to at least notify the persons commander that you have reports of the driver driving wrecklessly? 

As far as reporting the issue, I would agree with the above statement.
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SM-MADDOG
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2009, 09:36:09 AM »

speed limit in State of Indiana is 70 on interstates. They said it went to 70. I know certain parts of Indiana the interstate is 70. It use to be 65. As for Kentucky im not sure if they are all 70 on the interstates or not. 65 mostly in ohio depending upon location. Sometimes 55.

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2nd Lt, CAP
openmind
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2009, 02:14:24 AM »

The speed limit on CO highways is 75 MPH.  If National came out with a reg saying I couldn't drive faster than 55 MPH, then that would create a dangerous situation in itself, as I'd be going 20 MPH slower than the surrounding traffic, and just in general creating a mess. 

Actually, that exact situation exists in many parts of the world, including much of Western Europe.  Large Trucks over 7.5 tons (18 wheelers, dump trucks, large box vans, etc.) are limited to 90 KPH (56 MPH) and limited to the Rightmost lane, except for emergencies or passing very slow vehicles like tractors.  (Leftmost lane for the UK, obviously.)  This works just fine, keeping large trucks at a speed less likely to result in serious accidents, and keeping the left lanes free for the faster personal vehicles.

Oh, wait, you meant in the US, with our undertrained drivers.  Heck, No!  It would be a disaster here.

openmind
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Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2009, 02:30:55 AM »

The speed limit on CO highways is 75 MPH.  If National came out with a reg saying I couldn't drive faster than 55 MPH, then that would create a dangerous situation in itself, as I'd be going 20 MPH slower than the surrounding traffic, and just in general creating a mess. 

Nice try - 75 is the speed limit, not speed requirement.

"Keeping up with traffic..." doesn't generally fly when you're pulled over for speeding, nor would it fly in this case if NHQ were to adopt a national COV speedlimit.

Pull to the right and move on...
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RiverAux
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2009, 02:34:18 AM »

Nice try - 75 is the speed limit, not speed requirement.
"Keeping up with traffic..." doesn't generally fly when you're pulled over for speeding, nor would it fly in this case if NHQ were to adopt a national COV speedlimit.
Pull to the right and move on...
Keep in mind that there are also usually minimum speed limits on interstates as well...
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2009, 02:39:23 AM »

Keep in mind that there are also usually minimum speed limits on interstates as well...

I've seen these but honestly cannot remember ever seeing them in NC or Virginia.  What then?
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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2009, 02:54:30 AM »

Nice try - 75 is the speed limit, not speed requirement.
"Keeping up with traffic..." doesn't generally fly when you're pulled over for speeding, nor would it fly in this case if NHQ were to adopt a national COV speedlimit.
Pull to the right and move on...
Keep in mind that there are also usually minimum speed limits on interstates as well...

Yes, in CO its 55.
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flyguync
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2009, 03:01:52 AM »

Min speed on a controlled access highway is 45 mph.

As far as driving with cadets use the gray stuff between your ears and always ask yourself what would the 12 idiots sitting in the jury box say. DWHUA will get you in more trouble than you can get out of.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2009, 03:09:22 AM »

Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

I've helped with that quite a bit lately. Five funerals in less than three weeks.  I don't need to hear about a CAP one because they were driving too fast.

Best to not be judged at all and do the right thing, not the fastest.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2009, 03:15:09 AM »

Okay.....let's for a moment say that NHQ or some subordinate unit issued a max speed for COV's....how would it be enforced?

Unless you are sitting right seat or got a speed gun....how are you going to prove that SM Leadfoot was buzzing down the interstate at 70 MPH?

So let's just pass another unenforceable regulation.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2009, 03:34:00 AM »

Okay.....let's for a moment say that NHQ or some subordinate unit issued a max speed for COV's....how would it be enforced?

As are most safety-related regulations.

1) Self-discipline and adherence to published rules (i.e. core values).

2) Enforcement by others in the vehicle either by direct "slow down" or later filing a complaint.

3) Through disciplinary action should a member receive a speeding ticket in excess of the NHQ COV limit.

4) After the fact in the event of an accident or incident involving a COV where speed can be calculated by whatever means possible, including "How did you make it from 'x' to 'y' in 'z' time frame".

There's a lot of regulations and policies based around safety that are self-policing (until there is a problem) - a lot of them regarding aircraft - but a big one is the inspection of the vehicle before you drive it.
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afgeo4
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2009, 03:52:00 AM »

A state speed limit doesn't account for safe operating speed limits for particular vehicles.

I believe the most common vehicle in the CAP fleet is the 15 pax van such as the Ford E-350. When fully loaded with 10 cadets and their luggage/gear it is a very heavy vehicle with a high center of gravity. Although the speed limit may be 75 or 85 or in some states none at all (Montana I believe) it does not mean that it's safe to operate the specific vehicle under specific conditions at such speeds.

I know that in the State of New York, where the speed limit is 65, you will easily catch a speeding ticket for doing 60 if the weather conditions are poor. Why? Because it's unsafe for the conditions. Same with these vehicles. Vans, trucks and SUVs need extra care. Especially so when you're loading them with minors. At that time it's not an issue of speed, it's an issue of child welfare.

I do think that CAP should institute a speed limit advisory for CAP vehicles of say 55-65mph.
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