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citizensoldier
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« on: September 22, 2008, 01:49:54 AM »

When I was a cadet in the late 80's they were not a major factor as I never saw them worn.  Now the squadron I am joining has alot of people who wear them.  Do you still salute those who have them on or is it more informal.  This squadron is very laid back from what I have seen so far. 

Thanks,

CS
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2008, 02:02:10 AM »

Yes, internal to CAP, member wearing corporate uniforms are rendered the same courtesies, no matter what
uniform they are wearing.
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2008, 02:03:18 AM »

As far as I'm concerned, we salute the individual and not so much the uniform (I mean that in I respect the person and the uniform).  As a form of respect for our fellows.
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2008, 02:21:56 AM »

Yes, internal to CAP, member wearing corporate uniforms are rendered the same courtesies, no matter what
uniform they are wearing.

Thats what I was hoping was the case.  Id'ing rank is a pain in the 4th point of contact when they are wearing a polo.  Luckily for now everyone will outrank me and I can fire and forget. 
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citizensoldier
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2008, 02:25:14 AM »

Thanks for the fast responses folks.  It seems our senior members mostly ghost in early and leave late so you don't always catch them outside.  They also seem very informal compared to our cadets.  I am trying to guage my reactions a bit coming from the Army side of things.
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BuckeyeDEJ
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2008, 04:04:14 AM »

If they're in a polo/golf shirt, without either a visible indication of grade or personal knowledge, I don't salute unless I know what their grade is.

I would not expect a salute if I'm not in a uniform displaying my grade, nor, frankly, should I.

Sometimes, when I'm in civvies, I get salutes from members of my unit -- it's a personal courtesy/gesture, and it's appreciated and returned, because it's a sign of respect and camaraderie from unit members. But again, that salute is not expected when I'm out of uniform.

My personal opinion: If the rank doesn't mean so much to you that you would wear a uniform in a paramilitary organization that relies on some measure of rank, grade and authority, you shouldn't get a salute. Wear your rank and it will be recognized.

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citizensoldier
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 04:19:49 AM »

If they're in a polo/golf shirt, without either a visible indication of grade or personal knowledge, I don't salute unless I know what their grade is.

I would not expect a salute if I'm not in a uniform displaying my grade, nor, frankly, should I.

Sometimes, when I'm in civvies, I get salutes from members of my unit -- it's a personal courtesy/gesture, and it's appreciated and returned, because it's a sign of respect and camaraderie from unit members. But again, that salute is not expected when I'm out of uniform.

My personal opinion: If the rank doesn't mean so much to you that you would wear a uniform in a paramilitary organization that relies on some measure of rank, grade and authority, you shouldn't get a salute. Wear your rank and it will be recognized.



That makes sense.  I just remember more of the days when everyone wore the military uniform.
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 04:24:44 AM »

On golf shirts I wish only the personalize one was authorized, it makes working with people happen "faster" to be able to see their name and grade.

As to salutes, I will go with what was written in an above post...If I recognize a person of grade I will render salutes out of respect.  But with no name nor grade, how can one do that?
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SarDragon
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2008, 07:54:55 AM »

Grade is not worn on the personalized polo shirts, only name and specialty.

As for C&C, I have a common sense approach that carries over from my AD days - no hat, no salute. If I, in my hatless corporate uniforms, receive a salute, I will return it, but I neither expect, nor initiate salutes w/o a hat.

YMMV.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 03:07:09 PM »

I found it!

Quote from: CAP/CC Letter, 25 Jan 08
g. Customs and Courtesies in the Corporate Uniform. Effective
20 November 2006, the NEC clarified the policy concerning customs and courtesies
when wearing either of the new Corporate uniforms. Members wearing the Corporate
Service Coat or the white aviator shirt and blue pants/skirt combination should observe
the same customs and courtesies as members wearing the Air Force-style uniform.
Members will stand at attention for the National Anthem and the presentation of the
colors and will salute superior officers as necessary.

Says nothing of the CAP distinctive uniforms, so I would not infer that it applies to those uniforms as well... Only the TPU.

Personal opinion that will anger many:  There should be Air Force style uniforms and there should be non-military style uniforms that are not the quasi-military uniforms we have now.  Field uniform = Golf shirt and blue BDU trousers, aviator shirts with blazer nametags, blazer... and no saluting.
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 06:38:35 PM »

This question actually came up at our squadron so we looked it up.  Whether or not you salute is determined by what uniform YOU are wearing, not what the other person is wearing.  So, if you are in uniform and see someone with higher grade, you should salute them.

Of course, if you don't recognize the other person who isn't wearing obvious rank insignia, you won't know to salute.
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stratoflyer
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 06:53:35 PM »

The CSU (TPU) is a direct alternative to the AF blues and is rendered the same C&C as the AF blues. Same with the BBBBBDU (there's like 30 different shades of blue on that one).  ::)

But, I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

Same goes with C&C within CAP and senior members: Cadets should render appropriate salutes and seniors should expect it AND set the example by saluting others with AF or CSU wear.

And please, no more first name basis among the seniors while in uniform when cadets are around.
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 07:13:17 PM »

I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 07:15:49 PM »

I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.

Seniors working with cadets must wear a uniform.  Doesn't matter what one, just "a uniform."
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 07:18:59 PM »

I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.
I have never seen an official mandate or 'suggestion', but it really is common sense (yeah, yeah, I know its not that common..). Cadets work better with SMs that adhere to the same standards that the cadets have to.

But, on the same stroke, a cadet is more likely to respect and follow a SM that can look sharp in the golf shirt, rather than a SM the wears blues, but can't seem to do it right.
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PHall
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 08:04:22 PM »

I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.
I have never seen an official mandate or 'suggestion', but it really is common sense (yeah, yeah, I know its not that common..). Cadets work better with SMs that adhere to the same standards that the cadets have to.

But, on the same stroke, a cadet is more likely to respect and follow a SM that can look sharp in the golf shirt, rather than a SM the wears blues, but can't seem to do it right.

39-1 just says that a member will wear a "uniform" while conducting or participating in the cadet program.
It does not specify which uniform.
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davidsinn
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 08:14:51 PM »

I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.
I have never seen an official mandate or 'suggestion', but it really is common sense (yeah, yeah, I know its not that common..). Cadets work better with SMs that adhere to the same standards that the cadets have to.

But, on the same stroke, a cadet is more likely to respect and follow a SM that can look sharp in the golf shirt, rather than a SM the wears blues, but can't seem to do it right.

39-1 just says that a member will wear a "uniform" while conducting or participating in the cadet program.
It does not specify which uniform.

I would suggest the UOD or corp equivalent (CSU or BBDU)
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David Sinn
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 08:39:42 PM »

Whats does UOD stand for?
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Eeyore
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 08:50:04 PM »

UOD = Uniform of the Day
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notaNCO forever
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 08:53:18 PM »

Thanks, CAP needs a acronym of the day calender.
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DC
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 08:57:12 PM »

Thanks, CAP needs a acronym of the day calender.
There are all kinds of acronym lists, both CAP specific, and general military, all over the internet. Google is your friend.
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JoeTomasone
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2008, 02:01:27 AM »

You don't render the C&C based on what uniform a member is wearing.  You render C&C based on your ability to determine that the individual in question is recognizable as someone superior to you whom you are required to render said C&C to. 

If you see a member in the Golf Shirt uniform and don't know who he is or what grade, you are not required to render C&C. 

If you see a member in the Golf Shirt Uniform and realize that the member is superior to you (however that comes to pass), then you render C&C. 

This has nothing to do with the uniform.   If you see the grade or know the grade (or the office), you render whatever is due to that grade/office.   The golf uniform makes that difficult (since there is no grade displayed) but not impossible since you might know who it is or be told.  Spacing - MIKE
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PHall
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2008, 02:08:41 AM »

On golf shirts I wish only the personalize one was authorized, it makes working with people happen "faster" to be able to see their name and grade.


Well, the personalized shirt don't have your grade on them, just your name and wings/badge.

And being the cheap sucker I am, my golf shirt is not personalized.

If we're at an activity and you need to know my name you find it out the old fashioned way.

Ask...
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CAP Producer
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2008, 02:18:30 AM »

The golf uniform makes that difficult (since there is no grade displayed) but not impossible since you might know who it is or be told.

Not for me.  I try to greet people by saying Good Morning Sir/Maam (with a smile) no matter their grade. Sure helps when I am dealing with 60+ year old Lt in the golf shirt or the C/Lt Col in full blingage.
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AL PABON, Major, CAP
Major Carrales
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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2008, 02:24:33 AM »

On golf shirts I wish only the personalize one was authorized, it makes working with people happen "faster" to be able to see their name and grade.


Well, the personalized shirt don't have your grade on them, just your name and wings/badge.

And being the cheap sucker I am, my golf shirt is not personalized.

If we're at an activity and you need to know my name you find it out the old fashioned way.

Ask...

Hardie-har-har!!!  I think it is a courtesy in itself to make yourself identifiable to your fellows, most people will know you by reputation already (unless you are doing WING to WING...Fibber McGee and Molly's themesong ;D).  At least when wearing BDUs or Blues (or Corp equivs) people will know you you are and make quick name recognition.  I had thought this allowed a person to learn one's name faster.

I sometimes get mixed signal from you guys.
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2008, 02:29:34 AM »

All of this is probably going to serve to keep me in BDUs or AF blues as appropriate. 
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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 07:30:08 PM »

I am in a Senior Squadron, and we have all different ranks Capt's, Lt.Col's etc.. I don't believe we need to salute everyone. I understand that if you are reporting to the Commander in his office, and you are in uniform, you would render the appropriate motion on entering his officer and snapping a salute......am I correct?

 
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davidsinn
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2008, 07:31:01 PM »

I am in a Senior Squadron, and we have all different ranks Capt's, Lt.Col's etc.. I don't believe we need to salute everyone. I understand that if you are reporting to the Commander in his office, and you are in uniform, you would render the appropriate motion on entering his officer and snapping a salute......am I correct?

 

Yes and if you encounter them outside you salute all superior officers all the time.
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David Sinn
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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2008, 07:52:53 PM »

I am in a Senior Squadron, and we have all different ranks Capt's, Lt.Col's etc.. I don't believe we need to salute everyone. I understand that if you are reporting to the Commander in his office, and you are in uniform, you would render the appropriate motion on entering his officer and snapping a salute......am I correct?

No.  You need to salute everyone who is superior to you in grade.  If you're a SMWOG, or have chosen to wear your
NCO stripes from another service instead of accepting CAP grade, that's everyone.

And if they give you any guff about "this ain't the military" make a point to salute them every time.

The unit designation doesn't relieve courtesies and cause issues when the GOB's try and participate outside the hanger.
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davidsinn
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2008, 08:07:26 PM »

I am in a Senior Squadron, and we have all different ranks Capt's, Lt.Col's etc.. I don't believe we need to salute everyone. I understand that if you are reporting to the Commander in his office, and you are in uniform, you would render the appropriate motion on entering his officer and snapping a salute......am I correct?

 

Yes and if you encounter them outside you salute all superior officers all the time.

To clarify I was referring to the bold section. I my line about outside was trying to say the same as Eclipse.
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David Sinn
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2008, 08:12:12 PM »

I find that many don't know how to react when they are on the receiving end of a salute.  I've coached many a sr member on the what-how-why's of the salute.  In my opinion, it is incredibly rude to not return a salute and start talking to the "saluter" as if their hand is normally stuck to the brim of their hat.  It's like they've never seen it done in the movies or something. As pointed out, I salute darn near everyone. 

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ricecakecm
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2008, 02:09:16 AM »

The golf uniform makes that difficult (since there is no grade displayed) but not impossible since you might know who it is or be told.

Not for me.  I try to greet people by saying Good Morning Sir/Maam (with a smile) no matter their grade. Sure helps when I am dealing with 60+ year old Lt in the golf shirt or the C/Lt Col in full blingage.

I prefer the "Hey Dude!" approach.  :)  But then again, no one's ever accused me of being overly formal in CAP.
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BuckeyeDEJ
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2008, 02:58:58 AM »

"HEY, DUDE!"

Not too much different from "Hey, you in the blue!" (Of course, that gets harder when you start seeing gray and green.)

If you don't wear your grade, don't expect the courtesy. We can't read your ID in your wallet, nor should we in order to decipher your status.
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stratoflyer
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2008, 04:14:57 AM »

I've seen that it don't matter what seniors wear. They usually tend to be very slack and not adhere to any customs and/or courtesies.

Last time I was in the middle of a gaggle of seniors standing outside, some were wearing their covers, some weren't. Nobody seemed to mind and kept sipping coffee and munching donuts. True for the AF wearers as well as the CSU folks.

I felt the cadet within cringe.
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2008, 06:24:12 AM »

"HEY, DUDE!"

Not too much different from "Hey, you in the blue!" (Of course, that gets harder when you start seeing gray and green.)

If you don't wear your grade, don't expect the courtesy. We can't read your ID in your wallet, nor should we in order to decipher your status.

My philosophy - no hat, no salute; no rank visible, no salute. Singular exception - the unit commander always gets one.

YMMV. *Batteries not included.
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2008, 08:38:53 AM »

"HEY, DUDE!"

Not too much different from "Hey, you in the blue!" (Of course, that gets harder when you start seeing gray and green.)

If you don't wear your grade, don't expect the courtesy. We can't read your ID in your wallet, nor should we in order to decipher your status.

My philosophy - no hat, no salute; no rank visible, no salute. Singular exception - the unit commander always gets one.

Not if I outrank the unit commander, whether he's in a golf shirt or in the Air Force uniforms. The salute goes with grade, not position. (To be fair: I have lieutenant colonels under my command, and I salute them.)
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citizensoldier
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2008, 02:36:38 PM »

I find that many don't know how to react when they are on the receiving end of a salute.  I've coached many a sr member on the what-how-why's of the salute.  In my opinion, it is incredibly rude to not return a salute and start talking to the "saluter" as if their hand is normally stuck to the brim of their hat.  It's like they've never seen it done in the movies or something. As pointed out, I salute darn near everyone. 



To my mind not returning a salute like not shaking hands when one is offered. It just violates the social contract.
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2008, 03:41:13 PM »

I hate it when people don't salute back. I always try to salute back when someone walks by.
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PaulR
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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2008, 03:21:40 PM »

As far as I'm concerned, we salute the individual and not so much the uniform (I mean that in I respect the person and the uniform).  As a form of respect for our fellows.

I definitely understand where you are coming from... but it is the other way around.  It is the rank is what is being saluted, NOT the individual.   This point was hit home when enlisted members at a past unit brought it this topic up to their Chief.  They had issues with rendering honors to an officer who they considered to be "inept officers"(BTW their assumption was correct... he was a real piece of crap).   The Chief rightfully snapped at them, saying the were to render the proper honors to the rank.  Not the individual. 

This is the reason officers out of uniform (and out of a decaled vehicle) are not saluted. 
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billford1
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« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2008, 11:22:34 PM »

The information I have is that whatever uniform a senior member is in if he is saluted the salute must be returned. If you're unaware that's understandable. It's important to anticipate that you may be saluted. It will look really bad if the salute is not returned promptly. Cadets are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies. Senior members need to encourage Cadets to be enthusiastic about being in CAP by having a positive attitude and overall setting a good example. Cadets watch us closely.
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davidsinn
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« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2008, 01:31:03 AM »

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you  ;)
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« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2008, 02:29:45 AM »

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you  ;)

False.
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2008, 02:55:59 AM »


As for C&C, I have a common sense approach that carries over from my AD days - no hat, no salute. If I, in my hatless corporate uniforms, receive a salute, I will return it, but I neither expect, nor initiate salutes w/o a hat.

YMMV.

I remember years ago my grandfather telling me when he was a Marine, if an officer was outside with several enlisted men, a lot of times they would remove their cap so they wouldn't be saluted time and time again.

That doesn't apply today.  Regardless of whether or not you're wearing a cap, you salute those officers senior in grade to you.
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« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2008, 02:58:20 AM »

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you  ;)

False.

Which part? That we are all subject to customs and courtesies or my definition of which uniforms it applies to? I realize I left out the blazer which it does not apply to but it's not a common uniform.
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« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2008, 03:29:37 AM »

From page 1: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6074.msg115099#msg115099
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« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2008, 03:50:45 AM »

From page 1: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6074.msg115099#msg115099

Ok I see where you are coming from but I disagree. That merely states the policy for the new uniforms and says nothing of the old ones. If you are wearing rank you should practice C&C just as if you are in AF blue. The only exception I can see is the blazer uniform which is nothing more than a sports coat anyway.
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« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2008, 04:07:53 AM »

Therein lies my problem with your argument, since CAPP 151 doesn't cover CAP distinctive uniforms as they exist today (only as they did in 1989), and the ICL only covers the Corporate Uniform... All you have left is your opinion.
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« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2008, 05:23:54 AM »


As for C&C, I have a common sense approach that carries over from my AD days - no hat, no salute. If I, in my hatless corporate uniforms, receive a salute, I will return it, but I neither expect, nor initiate salutes w/o a hat.

YMMV.

I remember years ago my grandfather telling me when he was a Marine, if an officer was outside with several enlisted men, a lot of times they would remove their cap so they wouldn't be saluted time and time again.

That doesn't apply today.  Regardless of whether or not you're wearing a cap, you salute those officers senior in grade to you.

Where's the rule book that covers that?

A review of USA, USAF, USN, and USMC D&C and uniform regs shows essentially consistent policy for the following:

Headgear is worn only outdoors, with specified exceptions. Salutes are rendered only outdoors, with specified exceptions. It follows, IMHO, that you do not render salutes when not covered. Since most corporate uniforms do not have headgear, salutes are not rendered.

The blazer uniform does have rank insignia on the nametag. I have never seen salutes rendered on a routine basis by its wearers, except in specified situations. This, to me, sets a precedent for the remainder of the hatless corporate uniforms.

YMMV.
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« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2008, 01:17:34 PM »

I don't salute if they are not wearing a uniform cap (I say that because baseball caps seem to be common with white/greys...) , and that is what I teach my cadets.

So: TPU - Salute
      White/Grey - No Salute
      Blazer - No Salute
I'm not going to list all of the possiblities, but you see where I am going.

The one exception to this is Mess Dress, which does not have any headgear, but is a USAF style uniform.
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« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2008, 02:47:54 PM »

The one exception to this is Mess Dress, which does not have any headgear, but is a USAF style uniform.

Salutes are not required with mess dress since there is no headgear prescribed, but are highly encouraged.

Just remember, when in doubt, pop one off!
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« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2008, 03:02:23 PM »

I don't salute if they are not wearing a uniform cap (I say that because baseball caps seem to be common with white/greys...) , and that is what I teach my cadets.

So: TPU - Salute
      White/Grey - No Salute
      Blazer - No Salute
I'm not going to list all of the possiblities, but you see where I am going.

The one exception to this is Mess Dress, which does not have any headgear, but is a USAF style uniform.

What about the BBDU? It does not require a hat but I've always seen it worn with one.
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« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2008, 03:56:40 PM »


As for C&C, I have a common sense approach that carries over from my AD days - no hat, no salute. If I, in my hatless corporate uniforms, receive a salute, I will return it, but I neither expect, nor initiate salutes w/o a hat.

YMMV.

I remember years ago my grandfather telling me when he was a Marine, if an officer was outside with several enlisted men, a lot of times they would remove their cap so they wouldn't be saluted time and time again.

That doesn't apply today.  Regardless of whether or not you're wearing a cap, you salute those officers senior in grade to you.

Where's the rule book that covers that?

CAPP 151, which says when you salute and when you do not salute.



A review of USA, USAF, USN, and USMC D&C and uniform regs shows essentially consistent policy for the following:

Headgear is worn only outdoors, with specified exceptions. Salutes are rendered only outdoors, with specified exceptions.

We follow CIVIL AIR PATROL regulations, but they are consistent here.



It follows, IMHO, that you do not render salutes when not covered. Since most corporate uniforms do not have headgear, salutes are not rendered.

And that is both an unreasonable thread of logic and inconsistent with CAPP 151, which says that you salute when in military-style uniform. 

Your logic is akin to this:

Pilots wear flight suits.   Pilots fly airplanes.  Therefore, anyone in a flight suit can fly an airplane.


The blazer uniform does have rank insignia on the nametag. I have never seen salutes rendered on a routine basis by its wearers, except in specified situations. This, to me, sets a precedent for the remainder of the hatless corporate uniforms.

YMMV.

And I would disagree.   CAPM 39-1 (Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform -- pp. 87) states which uniforms are equivalent to USAF uniforms, and the only one left out (besides the not-yet-created Corporate uniform) is the Golf shirt.    That also happens to be the only uniform on which no grade insignia is worn IIRC, although you have the OPTION not to wear it on the Blazer.

Just because someone is not acting in accordance with regulations doesn't mean that there is a precedent by which you can or should ignore said regulation.   I ALWAYS see members, cadet and senior, leave their BDU caps on tables, or tuck them in the rolled sleeve, etc.   This is against regulations (must be stowed in cargo pocket on BDU pants), but just because a lot of people are doing it doesn't mean that somehow the regulation is not in effect.   Rather, it provides an opportunity to assist said member(s) in learning the proper regulation so that it can be followed.
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« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2008, 04:00:14 PM »

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you  ;)


Not accurate either.  Members in polo shirts are still required to observe customs and courtesies but are NOT required to salute.    They still must use sir/ma'am and address members with the proper titles, etc.
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« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2008, 04:30:57 PM »

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you  ;)


Not accurate either.  Members in polo shirts are still required to observe customs and courtesies but are NOT required to salute.    They still must use sir/ma'am and address members with the proper titles, etc.

You have a point and are correct but this thread was about salutes and similar actions.
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« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2008, 06:07:39 PM »

You have a point and are correct but this thread was about salutes and similar actions.


Okay, I'll bite -- what "similar actions"?

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« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2008, 07:41:01 PM »

You have a point and are correct but this thread was about salutes and similar actions.


Okay, I'll bite -- what "similar actions"?



OK you got me  ;D I probably shouldn't have put that. I was trying to not be too specific and box myself into a corner and it backfired.
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« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2008, 08:03:44 PM »

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you  ;)

You didn't fix it for me. You fixed it for you. This whole thing about not saluting seniors not in the Military Uniform is counterproductive regardless of what the CAP Pamphlet says. I was a member in a SC Sqn in 2003. There the Cadets all saluted me except a Cadet Major who absolutely refused. I didn't make an issue about it. I'm in a different state now and most Cadets salute me and I've even had Soldiers salute me. Why is this an issue?
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« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2008, 08:17:21 PM »

It follows, IMHO, that you do not render salutes when not covered. Since most corporate uniforms do not have headgear, salutes are not rendered.

And that is both an unreasonable thread of logic and inconsistent with CAPP 151, which says that you salute when in military-style uniform. 

Your logic is akin to this:

Pilots wear flight suits.   Pilots fly airplanes.  Therefore, anyone in a flight suit can fly an airplane.

Nope. You said it all - military style uniform. How many militery uniforms do not have headgear? AFAIK, only the mess dress. Folks in mess dress do not usually exchange salutes. I think my logic still holds up.

The blazer uniform does have rank insignia on the nametag. I have never seen salutes rendered on a routine basis by its wearers, except in specified situations. This, to me, sets a precedent for the remainder of the hatless corporate uniforms.

YMMV.

And I would disagree.   CAPM 39-1 (Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform -- pp. 87) states which uniforms are equivalent to USAF uniforms, and the only one left out (besides the not-yet-created Corporate uniform) is the Golf shirt.    That also happens to be the only uniform on which no grade insignia is worn IIRC, although you have the OPTION not to wear it on the Blazer.

Now we're just talking about equivalencies. That's like telling an Army guy he needs to wear Class A's to an AF event where the UOD is Service Dress. Has nothing to do directly with C&C.

I have presented my ideas, and will now stop. We're in the dead horse arena now, and nothing either one of us says will change the other's mind, so I'm outta here.
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« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2008, 08:31:38 PM »

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« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2008, 10:09:29 PM »

I am in a Senior Squadron, and we have all different ranks Capt's, Lt.Col's etc.. I don't believe we need to salute everyone. I understand that if you are reporting to the Commander in his office, and you are in uniform, you would render the appropriate motion on entering his officer and snapping a salute......am I correct?

No.  You need to salute everyone who is superior to you in grade.  If you're a SMWOG, or have chosen to wear your
NCO stripes from another service instead of accepting CAP grade, that's everyone.

And if they give you any guff about "this ain't the military" make a point to salute them every time.

The unit designation doesn't relieve courtesies and cause issues when the GOB's try and participate outside the hanger.

 :clap:
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« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2008, 11:01:42 PM »

First,

I don't know how many of you have any recent military experince....but we don't really salute that much.

No really. 

We of course salute when we pass officers on the street and during retreat....but we don't "report" when we stick our head in the CC's office.  If a bunch of us are outside for some function...we use the "sporting event" rule.

Working in the field we just don't do it.  (show me in any regulation that you don't saluet "in the field  ;D).

Second,

151 is older than the current CPU.  They still have not worked the bugs out of the CPU in 39-1 let alone any of the other regs/manuals/pamphlets.

Bottom line.....we in CAP do a pretty good job with C&C on the whole.  Usually it is someone who wants to turn CAP into basic training or "full metal jacket" who makes makes the most noise about C&C..

As for the technical answer....I think as I can't back this up in regs....is the intention of CPU and to an extent the aviator shirt uniforms was for them to act as if they were in USAF style....hence the "military style" working in 151 instead of "USAF uniforms".

Either way....I'm not going to get bent out of shape if some CAP 2d Lt or SM fails to snap to and render a crisp one....I got better things to do.
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« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2008, 12:32:27 AM »

Gen. Patton insisted that in his command that everyone salute everyone. If two privates passed each other on the street, they were supposed to saluteeach other not wave. Patton didn't think that it was unthinkable for an officer to salute an enlisted man first. The reason he thought this way was that he wanted to instill a sense of pride and  unit cohesion in his men as well as a mutual respect for all members of their unit. To do this a wave wouldn't cut it. If I see my wing king, who is also a good friend of mine, out on the street and we are both in civvies, I will render the salute out of respect. This is what I was taught in the RM. Whether a person is wearing a uniform or not, he is still a COL, BG, MG, etc. If you don't know who a person is that is different.
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2008, 08:47:11 PM »

I'll add my question/comment here... from my recollection about C&C in the AF as well as CAP as a cadet 25 yrs ago, you saluted the rank or position. IE... if I'm a 1LT and my assistant is also a 1LT, she would salute me out of respect for me, being a commander and in a command position over her. This just makes sense and follows proper courtesies. Sometimes a commander is also a lower ranking officer than those under his/her command, they should still follow C&C and render a salute because that person is their commander. Am I right here or sinking off the deep end? ???
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« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2008, 09:19:01 PM »

Normal C&C is based off what's on your uniform.  Positional C&C applies in drill and ceremonies.
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« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2008, 09:22:21 PM »

I'll add my question/comment here... from my recollection about C&C in the AF as well as CAP as a cadet 25 yrs ago, you saluted the rank or position. IE... if I'm a 1LT and my assistant is also a 1LT, she would salute me out of respect for me, being a commander and in a command position over her. This just makes sense and follows proper courtesies. Sometimes a commander is also a lower ranking officer than those under his/her command, they should still follow C&C and render a salute because that person is their commander. Am I right here or sinking off the deep end? ???

The shoulder always wins, even when the person of higher grade is your subordinate, except in cases where the subordinate is reporting to the lower grade. (A good Commander should be able to seperate the courtesy of a grade-based salute from who in the room is in charge, and you'd be surprised how far that little bit of "honey / respect" will get you with your "bees", especially if they are expecting less...)

I take Lord's comments above as truth.  Day-to-day, there's not a lot of need for saluting, if that's not your world, fine, but there are many of us who are active in the encampment program (where you'll wear out your arm returning salutes) and / or have offices on active bases - in some cases we are the face of CAP to another service, and in many case, the face of the Air Force, too.  We're just trying to get it right to avoid anyone looking foolish, or belaboring the situation beyond the 2-second acknowledgment its supposed to be.
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« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2008, 09:30:09 PM »

The shoulder always wins, even when the person of higher grade is your subordinate, except in cases where the subordinate is reporting to the lower grade.

Quote from: CAPP 151
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.
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« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2008, 02:04:44 AM »

Quote from: CAPP 151
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....
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« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2008, 03:29:43 AM »


Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....


Quote from: CAPP 151
Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of
the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a
greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never
inappropriate to salute another individual.


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« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2008, 05:31:15 AM »

Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....
Quote from: CAPP 151
Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual.
I'm going to be blunt: CAPP 151 is a vague waste of paper. Every senior member should get a copy of the same drill and ceremonies manual cadets get. That book? Air Force Manual 36-2203.

If you're a senior member, you lead by example. AFM 36-2203 is what cadets get, with a different cover on it. Seniors should get a copy, too -- and live by it, unless they want to spend their CAP career wearing a golf shirt. If you wear the Air Force uniform, you should absolutely know when to salute, how to stand at attention and how to keep your hands out of your pockets. (The latter thing is actually in the Air Force dress and appearance manual. Really. It's not some military urban legend.)

Seniors who understand D&C and customs and courtesies are the best teachers for cadets and set the best example for CAP, which after all is a paramilitary organization.

Quote from: AFMAN 36-2203
3.6. Exchange of Salutes. The salute is a courteous exchange of greetings, with the junior member always saluting first. When returning or rendering an individual salute, the head and eyes are turned toward the Colors or person saluted. When in ranks, the position of attention is maintained unless otherwise directed. Members of the Armed Forces in uniform exchange salutes under the following conditions:

3.6.1. Outdoors, salutes are exchanged upon recognition between officers and warrant officers and between officers or warrant officers and cadets or enlisted members of the Armed Forces. Saluting outdoors means salutes are exchanged when the persons involved are outside of a building. For example, if a person is on a porch, a covered sidewalk, a bus stop, a covered or open entryway, or a reviewing stand, the salute will be exchanged with a person on the sidewalk outside of the structure or with a person approaching or in the same structure. This applies both on and off military installations. The junior member should initiate the salute in time to allow the senior officer to return it. To prescribe an exact distance for all circumstances is not practical, but good judgment indicates when salutes should be
exchanged. A superior carrying articles in both hands need not return the salute, but he or she should nod in return or verbally acknowledge the salute. If the junior member is carrying articles in both hands, verbal greetings should be exchanged. Also, use these procedures when greeting an officer of a friendly foreign nation.

3.6.2. Indoors, except for formal reporting, salutes are not rendered.

3.6.3. In formation, members do not salute or return a salute unless given the command to do so. Normally the person in charge salutes and acknowledges salutes for the whole formation.

3.6.4. In groups, but not in formation, when a senior officer approaches, the first individual noticing the officer calls the group to attention. All members face the officer and salute. If the officer addresses an individual or the group, all remain at attention (unless otherwise ordered) until the end of the conversation, at which time they salute the officer.

3.6.5. In public gatherings, such as sporting events, meetings, or when a salute would be inappropriate or impractical, salutes between individuals need not be rendered.

3.6.6. Exchange of salutes between military pedestrians (including gate sentries) and officers in moving military vehicles is not mandatory. However, when officer passengers are readily identifiable (for example, officers in appropriately marked vehicles), the salute must be rendered.

3.6.7. Civilians may be saluted by persons in uniform. The President of the United States, as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, is always accorded the honor of a salute. Also, if the exchange of salutes is otherwise appropriate, it is customary for military members in civilian clothes to exchange salutes upon recognition.

3.6.8. Prisoners whose sentences include punitive discharges do not render the salute. All other prisoners, regardless of custody or grade, render the prescribed salute except when under armed guard.

3.6.9. In a work detail, individual workers do not salute. The person in charge salutes for the entire detail.

3.6.10. Any airman, NCO, or officer recognizing a need to salute or a need to return one may do so anywhere at any time.
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JoeTomasone
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« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2008, 06:16:19 AM »

I'm going to be blunt: CAPP 151 is a vague waste of paper. Every senior member should get a copy of the same drill and ceremonies manual cadets get. That book? Air Force Manual 36-2203.

I'd be all for that -- but that's not what we have to work with at this date.  Unfortunately, even when it's badly written, horribly out of date, or otherwise distasteful, our regs/manuals/pamphlets dictate our conduct even when they conflict with USAF.   USAF has slightly different uniform regs than CAP does; but this does not mean that we can ignore 39-1 and just "Go Air Force" when it suits us.

With all due respect, if you feel that strongly about it (and that's a good thing), send it up the chain of command.  My suggestions for changes have all died somewhere enroute.

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Rob Sherlin
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« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2008, 08:53:46 AM »

  Jeez! I didn't even see this one!...A whole other thread on saluting?...How many of these are there?

  My POV stands the same as before. I see someone in uniform that displays officers rank, I will salute out of respect, courtesy, and honor, and will do so until someone points out something that "bans" me from doing so.

  I too, think it's more out of respect for the person and their rank....Not the uniform. I've been at airshows in regular clothes and took my nephew up to a pilot and said, "Captain, this is my nephew and he wanted to meet you and ask you about the Thunderbirds". When I did so, I saluted him without even thinking...The funny thing is...He saluted me back.

  It shows respect, and it's not going to kill you to lift your arm and snap your hand to your brow.

  If you are a CAP officer, and you meet at a military base, you approach the guard post at the entrance where a seargant is posted. Upon approaching him, he notices your rank, and salutes you......What would you do?
       Ignore the salute?
       Tell him he doesn't have to salute you?
       Accept the respect and salute him back?
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« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2008, 02:27:30 PM »

Boy, I start a thread, get some answers and walk away for a bit and come back. 
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« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2008, 02:58:33 PM »

Back when I was a mere PVT - 2, I had a Platoon Leader that sumed it up rather nicely for me. Salute when you recognize someone of a higher grade than yourself, weather in or out of uniform. I have never had anybody get uptight over being saluted.
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« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2008, 03:03:04 PM »

I'm always amazed about all the fuss that's made over a simple salute.  What its it?  Are there folks out there who don't think they should have to salute anyone?  Do the think initiating a salute makes them inferior?  Maybe they shouldn't be a part of an organization with military trappings.

I'll agree that the regs and pamphlets need to be udated and clarified, but really, what's the big deal?
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« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2008, 03:10:58 PM »

I'm always amazed about all the fuss that's made over a simple salute.  What its it?  Are there folks out there who don't think they should have to salute anyone?  Do the think initiating a salute makes them inferior?  Maybe they shouldn't be a part of an organization with military trappings.

I'll agree that the regs and pamphlets need to be udated and clarified, but really, what's the big deal?

I hear ya.  I am Army Guard.  I just want to know when I have to.  I believe firmly in salute when in doubt but I want the to know the facts.
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« Reply #75 on: December 12, 2008, 12:19:11 AM »

Quote from: CAPP 151
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....

Why not? I salute my 1Lt commander all the time. My Major DOR predates her joined date. No biggie. Goes with the territory of being a commander.

YMMV.
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« Reply #76 on: December 12, 2008, 02:42:23 AM »

I'm going to be blunt: CAPP 151 is a vague waste of paper. Every senior member should get a copy of the same drill and ceremonies manual cadets get. That book? Air Force Manual 36-2203.

I'd be all for that -- but that's not what we have to work with at this date.  Unfortunately, even when it's badly written, horribly out of date, or otherwise distasteful, our regs/manuals/pamphlets dictate our conduct even when they conflict with USAF.   USAF has slightly different uniform regs than CAP does; but this does not mean that we can ignore 39-1 and just "Go Air Force" when it suits us.

With all due respect, if you feel that strongly about it (and that's a good thing), send it up the chain of command.  My suggestions for changes have all died somewhere enroute.

Man, it's already there -- cadets are trained in it!
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« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2008, 06:00:17 AM »

I'm always amazed about all the fuss that's made over a simple salute.  What its it?  Are there folks out there who don't think they should have to salute anyone?  Do the think initiating a salute makes them inferior?  Maybe they shouldn't be a part of an organization with military trappings.

I'll agree that the regs and pamphlets need to be udated and clarified, but really, what's the big deal?

I agree.  Being afforded the privilege of rendering/receiving salutes is something that should bind us together in this brotherhood/sisterhood that we call CAP.  Without the uniforms, customs, and courtesies, it's just another club.  We need to think of it as something cool.

Gunner
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« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2008, 04:36:03 AM »

I wear gray & whites; if someone salutes me (I'm a lt col) I will return it, since I was taught (as a cadet) first and foremost it is a GREETING (and also  a sign of respect for the officer's position & grade)!

It would seem rude to explain to someone why their courtesy is misplaced because of my clothing!

And if I see anyone wearing stars or eagles and we're in a place where one would normally salute, you'd better believe I'll "whip it out".

In fact, I have done so with CAP generals, colonels, and RM colonels, and nobody ever says "don't" (see first sentence).
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« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2008, 05:09:27 AM »

Why not? I salute my 1Lt commander all the time. My Major DOR predates her joined date. No biggie. Goes with the territory of being a commander.

The salute is initiated by someone of junior rank and grade, and returned by the senior. The senior drops the salute first. Position is not a factor -- if it was, wouldn't the commanders of USCENTCOM or USSOCOM, both four-star generals, salute the bird-colonel commander of the 6 ARW, who's the base commander at MacDill?

I have three light colonels in my unit, and because of their grade, I salute them, even though I'm their squadron commander. (Well, two of them, but they're also retired O-5s and B-52 drivers, so they came by their leaves the hard way. Why not the third? She only wears a golf shirt.)

With all due respect, if you choose to salute a first lieutenant, that's your prerogative, but while the intent may be to give respect to someone whose neck is majorly stuck out for CAP, it trivializes the relationship rank and grade have in a paramilitary organization. If that contention doesn't hold water, this one will: It sends a message contrary to what cadets are taught, and what the real military does, which is what I said in my first couple of sentences. We should lead by example, not by 'do as I say, not as I do.'
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« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2008, 05:45:12 AM »

The salute is initiated by someone of junior rank and grade, and returned by the senior. The senior drops the salute first. Position is not a factor -- if it was, wouldn't the commanders of USCENTCOM or USSOCOM, both four-star generals, salute the bird-colonel commander of the 6 ARW, who's the base commander at MacDill?

Point of order -- the Base Commander is not in the chain of command of the CENTCOM/SOCOM commanders.   But we have Lt. Col. Squadron Commanders who should and do salute their Group Commander, a Major. 

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« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2008, 10:43:04 PM »

The salute is initiated by someone of junior rank and grade, and returned by the senior. The senior drops the salute first. Position is not a factor -- if it was, wouldn't the commanders of USCENTCOM or USSOCOM, both four-star generals, salute the bird-colonel commander of the 6 ARW, who's the base commander at MacDill?

Point of order -- the Base Commander is not in the chain of command of the CENTCOM/SOCOM commanders.   But we have Lt. Col. Squadron Commanders who should and do salute their Group Commander, a Major. 

The point I was trying to make is that salutes are given based on grade, not on occupation. The example I reached for may not have been quite the same, but the base commander has responsibility for everything on the base, so by that standard, I reached for the comparison.
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« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2008, 03:30:47 PM »

Quote from: CAPP 151
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....

Why not? I salute my 1Lt commander all the time. My Major DOR predates her joined date. No biggie. Goes with the territory of being a commander.

YMMV.

Why not?  Because you are a Major.  Staff positions do not receive the salute.  The grade is saluted.  I wouldn't expect any of my Lt Col's to salute me.  I may be the commander, but that is just an administrative position.
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« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2008, 03:49:52 PM »

I wouldn't expect any of my Lt Col's to salute me.  I may be the commander, but that is just an administrative position.

"Commander" is neither a staff nor an administrative position, they are the only person in the room who has the final say, can terminate membership, and say "Yes" or "No" with a period on the end of the sentence.  They are the only people in the room who have personal responsibility for everyone else in that room.

Saluting one on that basis is not inappropriate and required when reporting.

In all other cases I would agree the shoulder wins, however when bringing a room to attention, or when a subordinate is reporting to a commander, the subordinate should salute the commander, regardless of grade.

Otherwise you're setting up a situation where a 1st Lt. CC should come to attention when a Major subordinate enters a room to be disciplined?  I don't think so.

In every situation, there is only one Commander, and teaching our people to salute based on shoulder, with the exception of a commander, is not going to break anything, and in turn if the commanders are doing the same thing, then at most you'll have commanders saluting each other (not a bad thing), and in the cases of subordinates, the salutes initiated at the same time.
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« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2008, 05:01:25 PM »

^ Umm....no?!?

The Commander is the Commander....yes, but he or she still salutes those that wear grade insignia that is superior to their own. 

So unless their is a policy at your unit that the SQD CC gets the room called to attention for him or her no matter who else is in the room, it should be the reverse of everything you typed.

CAP is weird that rank and grade have been mismanaged through the years to a point that it is reverse of what actually happens in the military. 

The 1st Lt would always salute the the Lt Col on the street when passing, and they would still call them sir or Ma'am, why not in the situation you described. 

My advice....lets not try to mix the "CAP Way" with the "Real World Military Way", it just confuses people!  
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« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2008, 09:31:00 AM »

Once upon a time, I was offered command of Headquarters Company, US Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School.  (Turned it down - I couldn't afford to loose HALO and SCUBA pay).  Among the members of that unit were two general officers, four colonels, and a boat-load of lieutenant colonels.  Trust me, even tho I would have been their commander, none of them would have saluted and I would have been doing the standing when the general came in.

This pseudo-system we have in CAP where anyone can be the commander regardless of rank is dumb, but thinking that a lieutenant outranking a major is a good idea is unreal.  No wonder so many people want to get rid of rank/grade in CAP.  If it doesn't mean anything, then why does saluting superiors mean anything?

Gunner
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« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2008, 02:38:08 PM »

At Katrina, the Command Chief Master Sargeant for the 1st Air Force put an image into my head I will never forget.

As he stepped from my GA-8 after a flight from Navy N'Orleans to Hagler AAF at Camp Shelby in Hattiesburg.

A CAP 1LT in an Air Force style CAP uniform was there to greet him and to help open the door for him to assist if possible in his exit from the aircraft.

Immediately after stepping from the GA-8, stepping down from the right front seat to the ground, the Command Chief snapped a salute to the CAP 1LT in the most professional and impressive manner and form I have ever seen.

And the CAP 1LT (a good kid attending college at Auburn University) returned the salute.  To the Command Chief.

I don't think that the 1LT or I or anyone witnessing that professional display of customs and courtesies that day, will ever forget it.
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« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2008, 03:00:48 PM »

^ Thats Cool!  You will find many in the military will salute CAP Officers, either out of respect or because "it is just another Officer".  That is why I find it so disgusting that so many CAP members will go out of their way to tell the enlisted people "oh you don't have to salute me or anyone else in CAP", while at the same time not returning the salute.  That is both disrespectful to the enlisted person who saluted the CAP member and to all CAP members, and makes that CAP member come off as a jerk.

If you find someone in the military saluting you (as a CAP Officer) just return it, and think they are saluting you because you are volunteering your time to do things many other people in this world get paid to do.

Back to Corporate uniforms and Customs and Courtesies.......stop be lazy and do what is expected from even the newest Cadet.  Act like you are in the AF Auxiliary, if you don't want to do those fancy customs and courtesies things......you can always non-renewal and join the Boy Scouts or Coast Guard AUX who do them very infrequently.       
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« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2008, 03:01:49 PM »

^ Thats Cool!  You will find many in the military will salute CAP Officers, either out of respect or because "it is just another Officer".  That is why I find it so disgusting that so many CAP members will go out of their way to tell the enlisted people "oh you don't have to salute me or anyone else in CAP", while at the same time not returning the salute.  That is both disrespectful to the enlisted person who saluted the CAP member and to all CAP members, and makes that CAP member come off as a jerk.

If you find someone in the military saluting you (as a CAP Officer) just return it, and think they are saluting you because you are volunteering your time to do things many other people in this world get paid to do.

Back to Corporate uniforms and Customs and Courtesies.......stop be lazy and do what is expected from even the newest Cadet.  Act like you are in the AF Auxiliary, if you don't want to do those fancy customs and courtesies things......you can always non-renewal and join the Boy Scouts or Coast Guard AUX who do them very infrequently.       

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2008, 07:48:36 PM »

^ Thats Cool!  You will find many in the military will salute CAP Officers, either out of respect or because "it is just another Officer".  That is why I find it so disgusting that so many CAP members will go out of their way to tell the enlisted people "oh you don't have to salute me or anyone else in CAP", while at the same time not returning the salute.  That is both disrespectful to the enlisted person who saluted the CAP member and to all CAP members, and makes that CAP member come off as a jerk.

If you find someone in the military saluting you (as a CAP Officer) just return it, and think they are saluting you because you are volunteering your time to do things many other people in this world get paid to do.

Back to Corporate uniforms and Customs and Courtesies.......stop be lazy and do what is expected from even the newest Cadet.  Act like you are in the AF Auxiliary, if you don't want to do those fancy customs and courtesies things......you can always non-renewal and join the Boy Scouts or Coast Guard AUX who do them very infrequently.       

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Ditto!

Two years ago at the Wreaths Across America I had Marine NCOs saluting me right and left.  They were doing it because they were proud to be Marines.  I was returning them because I appreciate their service and sacrifice.  I don't think that any of us lost anything and gained a great deal.

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« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2008, 02:08:58 AM »

Coming back to the CAP after nearly twenty years the whole polo shirt thing has been an adjustment.  I tend towards BDUs or Blues once I procure some.  To my mind it has been the move towards more "civilian" looking uniforms that has accelerated this whole confused state.  It is like the rank for senior members has become "Hey look how cool I am" and not a means of knowing who is in charge hence my choice to retain my NCO rank.

CS
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« Reply #91 on: December 18, 2008, 02:19:54 AM »

Coming back to the CAP after nearly twenty years the whole polo shirt thing has been an adjustment.  I tend toward BDUs or Blues once I procure some.  To my mind it has been the move toward more "civilian" looking uniforms that has accelerated this whole confused state.  It is like the rank for senior members has become "Hey look how cool I am" and not a means of knowing who is in charge hence my choice to retain my NCO rank.

CS

The group that want less military stuff in CAP seems to be taking over.  It will self correct.  First we need to get the customs and courtesies pamphlet turned into a reg. 

It is sad to see Cadets expected of one thing and those Officers that are there to instruct them do something totally different or not at all.  Polo shirts have no place walking around in front of Cadets EVER.  Unless the Cadets are also wearing a polo for a very special circumstance.   
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« Reply #92 on: December 18, 2008, 02:46:20 AM »

Coming back to the CAP after nearly twenty years the whole polo shirt thing has been an adjustment.  I tend toward BDUs or Blues once I procure some.  To my mind it has been the move toward more "civilian" looking uniforms that has accelerated this whole confused state.  It is like the rank for senior members has become "Hey look how cool I am" and not a means of knowing who is in charge hence my choice to retain my NCO rank.

CS

The group that want less military stuff in CAP seems to be taking over.  It will self correct.  First we need to get the customs and courtesies pamphlet turned into a reg. 

It is sad to see Cadets expected of one thing and those Officers that are there to instruct them do something totally different or not at all.  Polo shirts have no place walking around in front of Cadets EVER.  Unless the Cadets are also wearing a polo for a very special circumstance.   

I am totally with you.  I am only one of two senior members in our squadron who wears BDUs regularly.  It is just me and the 2LT who works with the cadets.  The other senior members show up in polos and charcoal slacks.  The 2LT and I are drawing a line in the sand and trying to lead from the front around the cadets.

CS
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« Reply #93 on: December 18, 2008, 04:33:14 AM »

It still amazes me that on page 5 we have folks still trying to figure out how they can avoid saluting someone.   

What is it with these folks??????

You don't want to salute....just wear only your underwear.  It's just about as silly as a discussion on how to avoid saluting.
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« Reply #94 on: December 18, 2008, 05:31:44 AM »

It still amazes me that on page 5 we have folks still trying to figure out how they can avoid saluting someone.   

What is it with these folks??????

You don't want to salute....just wear only your underwear.  It's just about as silly as a discussion on how to avoid saluting.

I know.  I just wanted to know what the standard is.

CS
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