Nevada Wing's NEW emblem

[alamrcn]

I heard months ago that Nevada Wing had redesigned their emblem and wing shoulder patch which has been in use since 1953. However, I have yet to actually see the design. I've heard it uses the typical USAF shield shape and is AFI 84-105 compliant, which would be a first.

Does anyone here maybe have a picture?

-Ace

[Eclipse]

...and is AFI 84-105 compliant, which would be a first.

A first for whom?  A lot of units have compliant insignia.

[DC]

...and is AFI 84-105 compliant, which would be a first.

A first for whom?  A lot of units have compliant insignia.

Most wings do not. I cannot think of a single wing off the top of my head who has the proper patch style for a Wing.

[O-Rex]

Florida is working on one that will be compliant.

[RiverAux]

...and is AFI 84-105 compliant, which would be a first.

A first for whom?  A lot of units have compliant insignia.

Most wings do not. I cannot think of a single wing off the top of my head who has the proper patch style for a Wing.

As discussed here http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5530.0 you are correct, but there wasn't much enthusiasm for becoming "compliant" even at the wing level. 

[DNall]

most wing patches are from the Army Air Corps era, or drawn from heritage wing patches of that era. So, there is not a lot of support for changing them & they're basically grandfathered in. Newer unit patches should be compliant, but it's not required in CAP regs, but a lot of us would like to see it put in.

[stratoflyer]

I'm still waiting to see if someone would put up a pic.............

[lordmonar]

Here it is!

[alamrcn]

Here it is!

Woah, PLEASE SELL ME ONE!



Combing the state flag with the original Maj Comm emblem is about as simple of a concpt as you get, and it works pretty well here. The dirrectional ellements are correct, the colors/metals are correct. The "CAP" within the field is questionable, but it is what National did.

So, can you hook a guy up with one or even a couple? I'd be willing to pay a mark-up!

-Ace

[MIKE]

The CAP looks a little weird centered with the offset tri-prop.  Not that it's needed anyway.

[RiverAux]

Seems kind of odd putting two national CAP references on a wing patch, but its way better than what Florida did. 

[alamrcn]

but its way better than what Florida did. 

Agreed. If ever there was [and there won't be] a standardized design like was TP's vision with the Florida Wing emblem, this would be a good way to go in giving the upper-left corner to the state for their flag, seal, mascot, etc.

-Ace

[stratoflyer]

Very nice.

In all fairness, the current FL wing patch looked better than the red patch with the alligator, especially on Blues uniform.

[alamrcn]

especially on Blues uniform.

ON THE WHAT?!     I know what you meant... It DID look nice, when it WAS on the Blues.

The National Capital Wing patch looked sharp too, although it was often referred to as the "SECURITY GUARD" patch.

[lordmonar]

Here it is!

Woah, PLEASE SELL ME ONE!



Combing the state flag with the original Maj Comm emblem is about as simple of a concpt as you get, and it works pretty well here. The dirrectional ellements are correct, the colors/metals are correct. The "CAP" within the field is questionable, but it is what National did.

So, can you hook a guy up with one or even a couple? I'd be willing to pay a mark-up!

-Ace

PM me.....$3 Free shipping.

[DC]

That is a sweet looking patch. It is simple, but discriptive, and it complies with proper heraldry.  :clap:

I really wish FLWG would bring back the old alligator patch, it was before my time, but it has much more 'character' than the current patch. But, I think every wing should be required conform to the proper heraldry, and a regulation governing squadron patch design should be passed requiring all new patches being designed to conform to AF heraldry standards. Non-conformal squadron patches already in use should be allowed to stay, simply because of the cost involved in redesigning and reprinting patches. My squadron alone would probably have to spend over $1,000 to replace decals, signs, printed materials, and actual patches. But, I don't think having 52 patches redone is too big of a hurdle.

[LtCol White]

VERY nicely done NVWG!!!!!!

[BigMojo]

Florida is working on one that will be compliant.

Shhhh!

[MIKE]

At least it won't look like [butt] on a zoom bag, which is the only place you'll wear them anyway. 

[cap235629]

unless your wing commander takes the optional out of the bdu wing patch requirement

[lordmonar]

unless your wing commander takes the optional out of the bdu wing patch requirement

Or subordinate unit...if higher HQ guidance is lacking.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The patch does NOT comply with Air Force heraldry directives.

If I remember correctly, existing emblems, or those of parent organizations, cannot be repeated within other units' emblems.

The Nevada emblem is a shield, cut down the middle diagonally, with the Nevada state flag detail above and the CAP triangle below. It may say "Nevada" and "CAP," but is not a distinctive unit insignia.

If Florida's working on a new insignia, I suggest they go back to the gator. Many of the old CAP wing patches could translate into the shield quite nicely, and the World War II-era emblems would be done justice just fine. Just put the old emblem into the shield. It's nothing the Air Force hasn't done repeatedly.

[alamrcn]

If I remember correctly, existing emblems, or those of parent organizations, cannot be repeated within other units' emblems.

I believe that the part of Nevada's flag is considered a "standard" and not an emblem. There are a few people who know way more about these things than I can even pretend to.

The triangle with tri-prop is Civil Air Patrol's basic symbol, and it is PART of a larger emblem. But Civil Air Patrol isn't our parent organization, it IS our organization. If using this form of emblem is not USAF heraldry compliant, it is the one place where we need to break those rules so our emblems are distinctive from Air Force emblems.

FWIW, Air Force yellow isn't really a CAP color. If CAP ever created its own heraldry guidelines, which I still don't see happening, the "colors" required would probably be ultramarine blue and scarlet red. White/silver could be possible to replace yellow/gold as a "metal" as well.

I don't think FLWG is looking to bring back Mosley's alligator in its entirety, but I'll bet there will be some kind of symbolic "reference" to it in the new design. Whatever happens, it's always good to glance back to the past, before we jump into the future.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Hey, if the Flying Tigers can keep their cartoon tiger, Florida Wing can bring back the gator!

I agree that Air Force Yellow isn't a CAP color. I disagree that the CAP triangle has to be in Every. Friggin. Patch. In. CAP. You don't see the Air Force eagle or the AF shield detail in every wing/group/squadron emblem. We know by the shape of the emblem that it's an Air Force organization (whether the boiler shield or the disc).

In CAP, the same logic should apply. Otherwise, we might as well use a cheapo clip-art CD from Office Depot and say, "hey, this is our original insignia!"

An emblem should speak to the unit's history and capabilities, not mirror someone else's emblems, whether they're a parent organization or not. That's where Nevada's new patch doesn't hold up. Even melding the Nevada flag emblem and the CAP triangle TOGETHER would have been more original.

[alamrcn]

I agree, very few USAF patches have the stylized wings or other identifiable AF icon. But if we're going to base our emblem designs off the AF - in particular, the shape - SOMETHING has to make it unique to CAP. Something has to set it apart from an AF emblem, or even an AFJROTC emblem. Literally stating "CAP" or "Civil Air Patrol" may not be as easy as the tri-prop, and at times it gets a little redundant all over the uniform.

Yes, the emblem should identify and represent the members that will wear it. However, our units do not have single or dedicated purposes like the AF - except for the so called "rapid responce groups" out there. So highlighting a unit strengths or capabilities isn't always a good idea, especially because that can change in just a few years. CAP's three missions are for all of us, and are not for picking and choosing. Sure a unit might be talented and gung-ho in Search and Rescue, but it should strive to meet the other two missions with equal effort and skill level.

One of the regs, not sure which, suggests naming a new unit for it's geographical area, and I think that is a good focus for the emblem as well. In addition to involving other stuff. Our wings are divided why state boarders anyway, and it's hard to represent an entire state with an easy to identify subject.

Several of our wing patches already use their state's flag - AZ and CO come to mind. Or a state icon, like the keystone for PA or bear for CA. Symbols of history, like Rushmore for SD and the Wright Flyer for NC. Etc. Etc. What easily identifies Nevada? I mean, other than that!

Thank you for the discussion.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

You've hit on it -- the emblems should represent the locality, since most (if not all) CAP units have the same mission. But copping an existing emblem isn't quite the way to do it. Every area has a local identity, and it can be parlayed into what CAP units do somehow.

It may take a little bit of creative thinking, some reflection, whatever, but it can be done!

[SJFedor]

I scored one of those patches from a certain CAPTalk'er after he did an outstanding job on his initial CAPF 91 checkride.

[lordmonar]

I'm not quite sure what you object to on the new NVWG patch?

Because we were not creative enough?

The old patch was a bloody blue circle with the silhouette of the state and the word Nevada on it......as far as USAF heraldry standards.....there are NO standards....a lot of units got stuck with someone else's emblem when Gen I'llnotsayhisname decided that some unit's history was more important then existing units.

So....when we....and I mean me and someone else....decided to submit an change, we specifically wanted to use something that represented the state and something that represented CAP. 

So...we went simple....no need to fake any symbolism, or make the patch too busy.

[SSgt Rudin]

That is a sweet looking patch. It is simple, but discriptive, and it complies with proper heraldry.  :clap:

I really wish FLWG would bring back the old alligator patch, it was before my time, but it has much more 'character' than the current patch. ............

If you have ever or ever get a chance to see the national historian's stuff, they have an (unauthorized) subdued version of the gator patch that someone had made.

Side note, they have a lot of cool "unauthorized" stuff from CAP's history; i.e. a "Civil Air Patrol Air Police" brassard from WWII

[DC]

That is a sweet looking patch. It is simple, but discriptive, and it complies with proper heraldry.  :clap:

I really wish FLWG would bring back the old alligator patch, it was before my time, but it has much more 'character' than the current patch. ............

If you have ever or ever get a chance to see the national historian's stuff, they have an (unauthorized) subdued version of the gator patch that someone had made.

I want to say I've seen a picture of that somewhere...

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Lordmonar:

My criticism isn't a matter of "creativity." The emblem has a clip-art feel. Surely there is some imagery that better reflects Nevada than the flag detail. After all, it's "the Silver State." No silver, no sense of the state's natural features, or how CAP's missions in Nevada work with them... 

I agree the emblem needs not be "busy." Heaven knows there's a bunch of CAP patches that don't reproduce well as patches. But while the Nevada patch may not be "busy," it doesn't reflect anything but someone else's logos and emblems, co-opted.

Does that help?

[lordmonar]

Lordmonar:

My criticism isn't a matter of "creativity." The emblem has a clip-art feel. Surely there is some imagery that better reflects Nevada than the flag detail. After all, it's "the Silver State." No silver, no sense of the state's natural features, or how CAP's missions in Nevada work with them... 

I agree the emblem needs not be "busy." Heaven knows there's a bunch of CAP patches that don't reproduce well as patches. But while the Nevada patch may not be "busy," it doesn't reflect anything but someone else's logos and emblems, co-opted.

Does that help?

So it is about lack of creativity.  Nevada's patch represents our state and our organisation in a simple cut and paste operation. 

[RiverAux]

C'mon, isn't anyone going to complain about a CAP patch referencing combat?   

Actually, I think Nevada using the phrase "battle born" is pretty darn cheesy.  Just because they happened to become a state during the Civil War, doesn't mean you were "battle born".  Its not like they had to fight to become a state. 

[Major Carrales]

I am afraid that this is a bit asinine, the NEVADA BASHING MUST STOP!!! 

I don't mind the design at all, it looks professional to me...the Nevada specific items and CAP symbols display a good WING Patch.

Just don't suddenly call for a RADICAL REDESIGN of all the Wing Patches based on that.  Let is happen in its own time.

[alamrcn]

If you have ever or ever get a chance to see the national historian's stuff, they have an (unauthorized) subdued version of the gator patch that someone had made.

This one?


I think that the Nevada Wing members will be pleased with their new emblem over the old one they've used for the last 55 years - authorized February 5, 1953.

My copy of the patch is on its way to me (I hope), and I'll be posting its image and as much history about it as I can on the CAP Patches website.

[PHall]

C'mon, isn't anyone going to complain about a CAP patch referencing combat?   

Actually, I think Nevada using the phrase "battle born" is pretty darn cheesy.  Just because they happened to become a state during the Civil War, doesn't mean you were "battle born".  Its not like they had to fight to become a state. 

Just happens to be the State Motto. It's also on the state flag.

So what's your point?

[RiverAux]

My point was that its silly to be on the state flag given that the state really wasn't born in battle.  I'd say West Virginia has a better claim to it than Nevada.  At least they were fought over in the Civil War.

Being that it is there, I don't have a particular problem with CAP using it as part of a wing patch though. 

[PHall]

My point was that its silly to be on the state flag given that the state really wasn't born in battle.  I'd say West Virginia has a better claim to it than Nevada.  At least they were fought over in the Civil War.

Being that it is there, I don't have a particular problem with CAP using it as part of a wing patch though. 

See, there's your problem. You think they're referring to the Civil War.

You think they were referring to something else, like maybe the Indians (aka Native Americans).

The "Indian Wars" were fairly nasty and went on from the 1840's all the way thru the 1890's.

[DC]

My point was that its silly to be on the state flag given that the state really wasn't born in battle.  I'd say West Virginia has a better claim to it than Nevada.  At least they were fought over in the Civil War.

Being that it is there, I don't have a particular problem with CAP using it as part of a wing patch though. 

See, there's your problem. You think they're referring to the Civil War.

You think they were referring to something else, like maybe the Indians (aka Native Americans).

The "Indian Wars" were fairly nasty and went on from the 1840's all the way thru the 1890's.

Nope. "Battle Born" refers to the Civil War.

In 1864, Nevada became the 36th state to enter the union, and the phrase "Battle Born" on the state flag reflects the state's entry on the Union side during the American Civil War. Its first settlement was called Mormon Station.

[RiverAux]

Don't worry, I did my research before shooting my mouth off.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Lordmonar:

My criticism isn't a matter of "creativity." The emblem has a clip-art feel. Surely there is some imagery that better reflects Nevada than the flag detail. After all, it's "the Silver State." No silver, no sense of the state's natural features, or how CAP's missions in Nevada work with them... 

I agree the emblem needs not be "busy." Heaven knows there's a bunch of CAP patches that don't reproduce well as patches. But while the Nevada patch may not be "busy," it doesn't reflect anything but someone else's logos and emblems, co-opted.

Does that help?

So it is about lack of creativity.  Nevada's patch represents our state and our organisation in a simple cut and paste operation. 

I don't say that to offend, by any means. Please don't take it that way. I'm sure the best of intentions went into it, and that makes it difficult for anyone to criticize, even in a constructive way.

If "creativity" is innovating within a set of constraints, then you could say "creativity" is the issue. If it's too late, this discussion is a moot point. But it's a good learning experience for wings like Mississippi, Arkansas and Florida, which adopted new wing emblems that don't display much original thinking, and instead either uses a state flag or tourism logo, or the CAP seal itself.

[Eclipse]

If "creativity" is innovating within a set of constraints, then you could say "creativity" is the issue. If it's too late, this discussion is a moot point. But it's a good learning experience for wings like Mississippi, Arkansas and Florida, which adopted new wing emblems that don't display much original thinking, and instead either uses a state flag or tourism logo, or the CAP seal itself.

How about displaying some of your work?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

How about displaying some of your work?

I'd love to, but the best I can do online is show you my portfolio of newspaper pages, graphics and illustrations, from my last five gigs (you'll have to get to at least page three to start seeing graphics and illos). From work at the weekly I edit now, major-metro papers in Detroit and Pittsburgh, a mid-market NYT paper in Sarasota, and from my hometown in Ohio....

http://www.newspagedesigner.com/portfolios/portfolio1.php?UserID=388

[Pylon]

I agree, very few USAF patches have the stylized wings or other identifiable AF icon. But if we're going to base our emblem designs off the AF - in particular, the shape - SOMETHING has to make it unique to CAP. Something has to set it apart from an AF emblem, or even an AFJROTC emblem. Literally stating "CAP" or "Civil Air Patrol" may not be as easy as the tri-prop, and at times it gets a little redundant all over the uniform.

The fact that any time it would be worn, it would be worn on a CAP uniform that has "Civil Air Patrol" on it somewhere should be pretty clear.   Any time it would appear on letterhead, it would be accompanied by text which includes "Civil Air Patrol". 

I really don't think a unit patch needs to have any direct reference to Civil Air Patrol on it.  People aren't going to confuse it with anything else because anytime it will be used, it will be in a Civil Air Patrol context (a CAP uniform, a CAP document, a CAP website, etc.).

How many times do we need to put "Civil Air Patrol" on our uniforms?  The first one or two times people will get it.

[alamrcn]

On a Civil Air Patrol uniform, sure it's obvious that the patch is of Civil Air Patrol use. Well, not always, my wing wore a USAF patch as an encampment patch.

Anyway, say some guy 35 years from now finds an old "F.R. Sussey" patch at a flea market that was long ago ripped from one of those "BDUs" their dad told them about. Curious looking thing, well designed, looks to maybe be from one of those Air Force bases that closed after the end of the Russian-Georgian conflict and the second cold war.

Just razing you...

Luckily, I've set up a history patch for that patch...
http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/NY/notmine/ny408.html

But I haven't been able to preserve one yet! Can you help a guy out? Don't want the one found at the flea market 35 years in the future to be the only one known to exsist! heh heh Yeah, I'm a little self serving, but I do care about preserving our uniform history... Especially at the lowest local levels where it is most likely to be lost and forgotten.