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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
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Author Topic: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo  (Read 11127 times)
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2008, 02:02:29 AM »

I got quite and earful from cadets who participated last year.  :o
Would they be cadets if we didn't get earfuls after every event?

There were cadets there who took the good with the bad and tried to make the best of it and there were cadets who sat in dark corners whining all day long. Many weren't prepared to work. Most were expecting McGuire Hilton with 3 catered meals.

Now I don't think the event went right, but honestly, I think many units sent cadets and senior members who weren't ready for overnight activities far from home too. Thankfully, there are many lessons that we've all learned from this that will help us all to be better members of CAP.
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GEORGE LURYE
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,132
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2008, 08:39:54 AM »

Now I don't think the event went right, but honestly, I think many units sent cadets and senior members who weren't ready for overnight activities far from home too. Thankfully, there are many lessons that we've all learned from this that will help us all to be better members of CAP.

Actually, I think a more accurate description would be that many units sent members expecting things like water, food, shelter, basic human needs, personnel accountability and cadet protection would be provided for.  Instead, they found out that after they worked a 12-hour day in the sun, that water was perpetually unavailable even during the hottest parts of the day, cadets went without meals for up to 18+ hours due to food shortages and distribution problems, cadets of both genders were mingling inappropriately at night with no supervision nor plans for such, radio communication went down at night, scheduling was non-existent, nobody knew where cadets were assigned or where they were half of the time, there were dozens of unsafe situations and all around it was a complete charlie foxtrot right down to the very basics.

Members found out quickly that it was very truthfully every man for himself at times.  Yes, there was a lot of complaining and rightfully so.  If a cadet didn't complain loudly about not having eaten or not getting any water to their duty station in the sun for over 4 hours, they wouldn't have gotten anything at all.  You had to complain regularly to get the very basics.

Furthermore, I didn't learn any lessons that would make me a better member of CAP except that my squadron will never participate in anything hosted or organized by New Jersey wing again.  I know a squadron commander of a unit with 120+ cadets who has said the same thing.  We're not alone.

But hey, if you want to pay New Jersey Wing $60 to go be unsupported, unfed, unhydrated slave labor emptying trash bins or hawking $20 program books for a private company for hours on end -  be my guest.  You might even be granted the privilege of wearing your CAP uniform!   ::) :P
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2008, 12:34:45 PM »

^ Well said Mike.  It was terrible, there was no accountability, and the organizers last year really had no regard for the welfare of the members attending the event.  When I got the call that my 12 Cadets got one slice of pizza (the day they ran out of undercooked hamburgers) and one can of soda and NJWG totally trashed the building they were living in, I went to McGuire last summer and drove them all back that night.

(Funny story, some Navy Cadet type tried to tell me I couldn't take them without them cleaning up their living areas first.  hahahahha.  I was even in ACU's and reminded said Cadet, "When you decide to talk back to an Officer, do it at attention")  However, first I took them all to the PX and got them dinner (which I paid for, and should have sent a bill to NJWG). 

I even outfitted my attendees in proper CAP uniform (BDU Covers instead of Orange ball caps, sans PAWG)....and they still got shafted.  So ya, $60.00 to "pay and play" NOT Worth my time, my members time or anyone else's efforts this year. 

2007 McGuire Air Show= Worst organized event in NER EVER.  2008 McGuire Air Show=lame and not worth $60.00 (which I need to decide to either put toward renewing membership, or Taco Bell next week)

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What's up monkeys?
notaNCO forever
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 647

« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2008, 12:37:39 PM »

2007 McGuire Air Show= Worst organized event in NER EVER.  2008 McGuire Air Show=lame and not worth $60.00 (which I need to decide to either put toward renewing membership, or Taco Bell next week)



Taco Bell would be the better choice.
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mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2008, 01:08:52 PM »

2007 McGuire Air Show= Worst organized event in NER EVER.  2008 McGuire Air Show=lame and not worth $60.00 (which I need to decide to either put toward renewing membership, or Taco Bell next week)



Taco Bell would be the better choice.

It is looking like I may be moving that way as well.  I want to keep my membership up when I am forcibly airdropped into some god forsaken thrift market in Afghanistan, but I think I am getting burned out with CAP.  I don't have any respect for the Wing Leadership anymore, and have turned down various positions on Wing Staff because they treat their staffers like total crap.  A 1 to 1.55 year leave from CAP may be warranted.  Plus, I can use my money I would have dropped on CAP to really "live the good life".  Taco Bell or Chinese food everynight, I can start my Walmart DVD collecting back up, I will actually be able to get through a week of not having Cadets call me (and their parents) to go over information that I already presented to them 50 times previous. 

Ya......getting the burn out here.   :'(
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What's up monkeys?
0
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 630

« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2008, 01:13:51 PM »

I was hoping to go to the Air Show, but things look to crazy for me to get there. 
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1st Lt Ricky Walsh, CAP
Boston Cadet Squadron
NER-MA002 SE, AEO & ESO
mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2008, 02:10:14 PM »

^ I highly reccomend going to see the show, but I do not reccomend working the show.  It actually is not a bad airshow. 
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What's up monkeys?
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2008, 06:24:39 PM »

Here's what puzzles me:

1) CAP personnel are working free for USAF
2) CAP personnel are being charged to stay in barracks

Am I the only one sees something wrong with this picture?

While I'm on the subject, why is NJW getting their own Teeshirts made, then selling them to participants?

And who is the genius, CAP or USAF, who decided black was the best color to use in NJ heat & humidity? Ah, the special sound of cadets passing out on the tarmac!!
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mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2008, 06:49:46 PM »

^ There are T-Shirts being made by the Event organizers, given free to military personell.  There is a generic "Staff t-shirt" that just says "Staff" on the back, no writing on the front for 12 bucks.  CAP (NJWG) is silkscreening an emblem and "Civil Air Patrol" on the front of the ones they are mandating. 

Billeting is free to all personell at Ft Dix working the Air Show.  I called. 

Billeting is 25 bucks per night if you want to stay on the McGuire side in the VEQ.

I can't believe we really need "Staff" T-Shirts to begin with.  I can't believe the AF said "PAY $60.00".  I also can't believe anyone in CAP would want to work their buts off to make the Air Show Company money.  Really......assigned to the Beer and Hotdog booth making money for the Air Show Company is crap.  If anything CAP should have a few booths there selling soda and bottles of water. 

I understand there are costs associated with CAP membership, but paying to serve the AF, when our service should be welcomed by them is crazy. 

I think this was a ploy on someones part to either make money, or the AF trying to make sure CAP does not participate.  Where the crap was our State Director when this craziness came out.  He is rarely in his office, and never can be found. 
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What's up monkeys?
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,457
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2008, 06:51:13 PM »

And who is the genius, CAP or USAF, who decided black was the best color to use in NJ heat & humidity? Ah, the special sound of cadets passing out on the tarmac!!

Army brown isn't that much better.  At least a "compliant" black t-shirt can be worn with either the BDU or Field Uniform.
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Mike Johnston
JC004
[Insert Cool Title Here]
Global Moderator

Posts: 4,516

« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2008, 06:58:17 PM »

I'm glad to hear people are cherishing their memories of this event.  It sounded like it went really well last year.  I heard the same stuff from other folks who went and I talked to after the weekend.  At least the feelings seem pretty unanimous. 
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CASH172
Seasoned Member

Posts: 347

« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2008, 08:42:55 PM »

I just looked at the airshow map.  It appears the CAP static display is the MOST farthest away from the show public entrance.   ???
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mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2008, 09:17:54 PM »

^ Maybe the AF is embarrassed of CAP.  Thats what I am starting to think.  Can't wear your uniforms, can't be billeted with all the other staffers, and CAP is not operating any for profit vending tents or booths. 

hmmmm..........
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What's up monkeys?
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2008, 01:17:28 AM »

1. One of the main reasons why so many people showed up last time is the promise of money being made at concessions that would go back to the volunteer's unit. That didn't happen. It's not happening this year either, but at least they're not telling us it will.

2. The black t-shirt is used so it can be worn under the BDU blouse (it's an authorized uniform item, so saves someone the cost of buying another black t-shirt at some point in time). However, I'm not sure that USAF didn't tell CAP to have a unique shirt. How else can USAF people identify CAP personnel as non-USAF? Remember, it's going to be blouses off, so everyone is going to look the same. BDU pants, black boots, blue belts, black t-shirts. At least CAP shirts will allow for less confusion.

3. If billeting is free, why the $60 charge? I read 2 meals  per day will be provided by 305/514th Services Squadrons at the dining hall and that should be just a couple of dollars per meal.

4. I think HQ/USAF, the host and organizer of the event should eat all expenses associated with CAP volunteers, including fuel for transportation to/from/during event and all associated expenses. Why? They're getting free labor that they wouldn't get otherwise. Labor that's fairly organized and easy to deal with (I hope).
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GEORGE LURYE
DOD_Tcom
Newbie

Posts: 3

« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2008, 09:37:34 AM »

The second result for a YAHOO search of McGuire AFB Air show leads to a message board of whiny CAPS???  Frankly, it was a sad enough display for this veteran and dept. of defense employee to register and point it out, just in case you were unaware.   

Certainly, complaining about investing resources and volunteering is an interesting approach to educating and welcoming the public sector, who are just trying to find information on the Air Show, and gripes about the $60 is a also a unique way of showing your appreciation and dedication to our all volunteer Armed Forces.  Maybe not the public relations tactic that I would use to demonstrate PRIDE in our Armed Forces, but that just alludes to the unwillingness of a CAP to help Team McGuire show the Public their capabilities and say Thank You for their support.  The Air Expo and Open House is the AF way of saying thank you to all the communities that support Team McGuire throughout the year. Anyone attending the event will enjoy FREE admission and FREE parking throughout the weekend.

FREE for the public, not for the thousands of Team McGuire personell who are "donating" their entire weekend to help provide this event to the public, not to mention the 1000s of hours spent preparing the base like the base beautification of the last 2 weeks. 

Trying to instill a sense of military pride in the community by displaying the might of the Air Force, and the capabilities of all it's dedicated volunteers, active duty or civilian...you're doing it wrong!

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mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2008, 11:23:26 AM »

The second result for a YAHOO search of McGuire AFB Air show leads to a message board of whiny CAPS???  Frankly, it was a sad enough display for this veteran and dept. of defense employee to register and point it out, just in case you were unaware.   

Certainly, complaining about investing resources and volunteering is an interesting approach to educating and welcoming the public sector, who are just trying to find information on the Air Show, and gripes about the $60 is a also a unique way of showing your appreciation and dedication to our all volunteer Armed Forces.  Maybe not the public relations tactic that I would use to demonstrate PRIDE in our Armed Forces, but that just alludes to the unwillingness of a CAP to help Team McGuire show the Public their capabilities and say Thank You for their support.  The Air Expo and Open House is the AF way of saying thank you to all the communities that support Team McGuire throughout the year. Anyone attending the event will enjoy FREE admission and FREE parking throughout the weekend.

FREE for the public, not for the thousands of Team McGuire personell who are "donating" their entire weekend to help provide this event to the public, not to mention the 1000s of hours spent preparing the base like the base beautification of the last 2 weeks. 

Trying to instill a sense of military pride in the community by displaying the might of the Air Force, and the capabilities of all it's dedicated volunteers, active duty or civilian...you're doing it wrong!



I suggest you go back inside your little world inside your DOD Cubicle. 

First, manhours are being provided by Reserve and Guard Soldiers, Sailors and Airman.  They are getting paid for it, because they are doing the work during (and get this ) their drill weekend, while others are making up drill time they need to make up because they could not make it to regular drill.  The Active Duty Component is getting paid to do this work because (and get this too) they just rework their daily schedules and fit in Airshow duties in place of Office work. 

Wow, you speak of free admission and parking.  They have to offer free parking and admission, because face it.......no ONE would show up other wise. 

"Team McGuire" is only a small percentage of people supporting this show.  Security, billeting, and other functions are being handled by DIX. 

As far as we should throw 60 dollars toward the military and Airshow CORPORATION so we can get used (most likely worse than last year) is an insult.  We already pay to perform services for USAF and our communities.  Cleaning up trash at an Airshow is not an Air Force Mission for CAP.  Hell CAP did not even get a decent recruiting booth. 

We all have pride in the members of our Armed Forces, but we don't have to PAY CASH to prove it. 

Finally, we didn't create that site you surfed across.  If you want a website to look for airshow info, try the freaking airshow website hosted off the "team McGuire" website.

CAP is not a slave labor pool that can just be called upon to clean up trash, collect money for a mutli-million dollar airshow company, or perform any and all menial labor tasking. 

As far as cleaning up McGuire.....thats  along time coming.  The base is disgusting.  However, they do have civilian contractors for that type of daily work, and CAP should never ever be used for anything like that.

I suggest you use the search button above and see why so many people are upset with the 2007 McGuire Air Show.

OH ya.....this is only a small thing in the much larger Air Force Week in Philadelphia.  All of the Philly events are free to the public, and CAP is more than welcome to attend, no charge. 

Question......if your boss came to you and said "Mr DOD employee, to do your job from now on, you need to give the DOD $60.00 every other month.  Your 60 bucks would get you a distinctive shirt, access to bathrooms, and a donut in the morning".  Would you pay it??  How about if he said, it would be used to show your support for our soldier, but the money is going to milion dollar companies.     

 
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What's up monkeys?
JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,338

« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2008, 11:29:18 AM »

The second result for a YAHOO search of McGuire AFB Air show leads to a message board of whiny CAPS???  Frankly, it was a sad enough display for this veteran and dept. of defense employee to register and point it out, just in case you were unaware.   

Certainly, complaining about investing resources and volunteering is an interesting approach to educating and welcoming the public sector, who are just trying to find information on the Air Show, and gripes about the $60 is a also a unique way of showing your appreciation and dedication to our all volunteer Armed Forces.  Maybe not the public relations tactic that I would use to demonstrate PRIDE in our Armed Forces, but that just alludes to the unwillingness of a CAP to help Team McGuire show the Public their capabilities and say Thank You for their support.  The Air Expo and Open House is the AF way of saying thank you to all the communities that support Team McGuire throughout the year. Anyone attending the event will enjoy FREE admission and FREE parking throughout the weekend.

FREE for the public, not for the thousands of Team McGuire personell who are "donating" their entire weekend to help provide this event to the public, not to mention the 1000s of hours spent preparing the base like the base beautification of the last 2 weeks. 

Trying to instill a sense of military pride in the community by displaying the might of the Air Force, and the capabilities of all it's dedicated volunteers, active duty or civilian...you're doing it wrong!



Sir

Last year we had cadets, some as young as twelve years old, stuck out on locations for hours without relief or water.

We had cadets, some as young as twelve years old, have uniforms and gear stolen out of barracks.

We had cadets, some as young as twelve years old, not being fed, or being promised to attend certain activties which were later denied.

We had adult members who had to drive cadets from out of their area to health clincs and other locations with no maps, no directions, and minimal instruction.

We had cadets of both sexes billeted improberly.

Shall I go on?

Our people are volunteers. We're not Soldiers, or Airmen, DoD workers, or private contractors.
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
Cecil DP
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,208

« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2008, 01:29:03 PM »

Mr DOD_Tcom

We are all proud of all the men and women of all the services. Most of the veteran members of this board are past and present members of the military, both active duty and reserve. The comments you have taken umbridge to refer to the costs associated with attending a "free" event and the seeming lack of support from all associated with the event including our Wing (State) Headquarters in New Jersey. As stated by an earlier poster, most of the participants in the Air Show were in a pay status of some type. The CAP members not only weren't but were required to pay $60 for the privilege. If I as a reservist had drilled for those two days, I would have earned close to $1,000 for the weekend. (E-8x 4 drills). So if someone was earning up to 4/5 drills for the weekend, why not give some concern for those who are there without compensation, and not nickel and dime them to death.
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Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85
DOD_Tcom
Newbie

Posts: 3

« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2008, 02:14:19 PM »

I read every post in this thread, and it sounds like there are many valid complaints for the event organizers.  Maybe the base commander should ultimately make sure the right people are organizing this event and that  procedures are in place so that considerations are given to the volunteers out in the sun. 

I don't dispute that you have valid issues that should be addressed in the chain of command.  I find it a litte sad that the average citizen, who is interested enough to look for information on the air show, finds this site as the 2nd result.  Not that it's the fault of anyone on this board, but I wanted to make you all aware of that.  It can inadvertently undermine the effort of the armed forces to identify with the citizensí interest, seek informed support, and deliver first-person accounts of capabilities. 

I never meant to call into question the efforts of the CAP.  I personally saw they had a large presence at last year's event. 

I don't think of an air show as a venue for entertainment, no matter how anyone want to market the event.  A flightline is not a place to have fun for any small child in the summer.  So, I can see how CAP personell would be upset when subjected to that enviroment without a good plan in place. 
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DOD_Tcom
Newbie

Posts: 3

« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2008, 03:25:18 PM »

Quote
Question......if your boss came to you and said "Mr DOD employee, to do your job from now on, you need to give the DOD $60.00 every other month.  Your 60 bucks would get you a distinctive shirt, access to bathrooms, and a donut in the morning".  Would you pay it??  How about if he said, it would be used to show your support for our soldier, but the money is going to milion dollar companies.

I think I made it pretty clear I didn't think it was the fault of the message board.  I just wanted to point it out to the people using the board.  My boss has never come to me and said I have to pay $60.00 every other month for anything.  He never said I had to use my POV as a GOV either.  (But I do)  He never said I had to chip in for all of the retirement and PCS collections either.  (But I do)  He never said to stay after work late without pay.  (But I do) Actually, the Commander usually calls me late at least once a week to order me out of the office.   And no he never said I had to buy the squadron teeshirt either.  (But I own about 5 at $15.00 a pop)  Yes, they're black.

As for going back to my cubicle...don't have one.  I do have an office, but for the most part my office is out in the field.  Technically, I could work behind a desk all day, but that's not a good way to stay on top in the communications field.  The technology changes so fast that hands-on application and implementation is the best way to stay relevent and get things done. 

Tags - MIKE
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 03:30:38 PM by MIKE » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: 2008 McGuire AFB Air Expo
 


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