SLS Uniform

[A.Member]

... but I'm not going to send someone home  from a non-ES activity for something like that.

It's Squadron Leadership School.  I couldn't think of a place where such an action would be more approriate!  As arajca indicated, it's leading by example and setting expectations.

As for your membership/participation issues, that's another subject and there will always be the quality v. quantity arguments. 

[Eagle400]

I'll reach over and zip up a waist jacket,

Wouldn't it be more prudent to just ask the fellow with the jacket to zip it up?

Then again, I am a very hands-off person.

[jimmydeanno]

You know, many times these "problems" are self-correcting.  The last SLS I directed, I just said "wear any authorized uniform."  Everyone but two people showed up in blues, one was in the polo and the other in BDUs.  The next day, everyone was in blues. 

[Gunner C]

The quality of SLS and CLC is directly related to the quality of instructors. 

The new formats and material can be improved - but it is a great improvement over the previous versions.  At least one of the courses (I forget if it was both or which one if only one) was put together as a Air Command and Staff College project by a team of students (normally all USAF Majors).  It strongly reflects how ACSC trains future Colonels.  Most Seminars at ACSC are taught by the students in the seminar - based on the Instructor Guide material they are issued when picked to lead the seminar.

I have added extra sessions (e-Services & ES qualifications) based on class experience and desires but not dropped any sessions.  Remember - people attending these courses EXPECT to come away with something they didn't know.  Don't let them leave thinking they just went through a rehash of stuff they got before.

Uniforms really should be required - any authorized CAP uniform with the exception of "field" uniforms like BDUs, BBDUs, Utility Uniforms, and Flight Suits.   

Agree 85%.  You are correct, but the uniform should be within one group of uniforms.  Example:  Choose AF blue short sleeved shirt w/o tie and no ribbons.  Acceptable substitutes would be corporate uniform with short sleeves and no ribbons or aviator shirt with grey pants and no ribbons.

This keeps it simple, inexpensive, and uniform.  I can tell you it makes a huge difference in the atmosphere.  If you make it "any authorized CAP uniform" (minus field/flight uniforms) you can have anything from polo shirts to full service uniform to mess dress (exaggeration for clarity).

In our class, we found that when everyone looked pretty much the same you could tell that everyone made an effort to be there, follow the rules, and learn something.  It helped with cohesion, teamwork, and gave everyone a feeling that they'd graduated from something special and worthwhile.

Once again, the higher the standards, the greater the worth to the student.

GC

[afgeo4]

Aren't you required to have a uniform to get past Level One?

That's just unacceptable to me. How long does it take to get an aviator shirt and a nameplate from Vanguard, and a pair of gray pants and belt from a civilian clothing store? Maybe a week? About the same for a polo shirt?

Technically, you aren't required a uniform to get past any level.

When I took my SLS we had a few SMWOG in the class and a couple of them didn't have their dress uniforms yet (their unit usually met in BDUs, which they did have). I have no problems with active members who wear suits to meetings or training.

[davidsinn]

I'm a 1st Lt(reg promotions) and don't have a dress uniform yet. I don't have the money for one and I'm trying to lose weight before my wedding so it's pointless to get one until afterwards.

[Gunner C]

Aren't you required to have a uniform to get past Level One?

That's just unacceptable to me. How long does it take to get an aviator shirt and a nameplate from Vanguard, and a pair of gray pants and belt from a civilian clothing store? Maybe a week? About the same for a polo shirt?

Technically, you aren't required a uniform to get past any level.

When I took my SLS we had a few SMWOG in the class and a couple of them didn't have their dress uniforms yet (their unit usually met in BDUs, which they did have). I have no problems with active members who wear suits to meetings or training.

I'm wondering if they should have been there - if they've only been in CAP for less than 6 months, the value they would have gotten from the training would be greatly reduced.  IMO, commanders should wait until an officer is ready for schooling and promotions.  When they're completely ready (or ripe, I guess) then they can go.  Let them get some T-shirt time so they'll understand what's being presented and will be in a position to use it.

I'm a 1st Lt(reg promotions) and don't have a dress uniform yet. I don't have the money for one and I'm trying to lose weight before my wedding so it's pointless to get one until afterwards.

I completely understand that.  Go to the training when you ready.  You're not ready, yet.

If there was something beyond your control, then it would be different (like preggers vis a vis the comment earlier).  There's a time and season for everything - it's just not yours yet. 

"Not the minimum standard, but the highest standard possible - that's what makes leaders."

GC

[davidsinn]

I went to an SLS last year. I instructed at one this year. At neither one did I need a dress uniform. I think you misunderstood me as I used n abbreviation where I shouldn't have. I meant REGular promotion not a special case. So I've been in almost 2 years. So far I have not had an occasion to need one yet. Although since my 2d Lt fiance wants me in uniform at the wedding I have some weight to lose to hit that mark.

[Short Field]

Agree 85%.  You are correct, but the uniform should be within one group of uniforms.  Example:  Choose AF blue short sleeved shirt w/o tie and no ribbons.  Acceptable substitutes would be corporate uniform with short sleeves and no ribbons or aviator shirt with grey pants and no ribbons.

This keeps it simple, inexpensive, and uniform.  I can tell you it makes a huge difference in the atmosphere.  If you make it "any authorized CAP uniform" (minus field/flight uniforms) you can have anything from polo shirts to full service uniform to mess dress (exaggeration for clarity).

In our class, we found that when everyone looked pretty much the same you could tell that everyone made an effort to be there, follow the rules, and learn something.  It helped with cohesion, teamwork, and gave everyone a feeling that they'd graduated from something special and worthwhile.

Once again, the higher the standards, the greater the worth to the student.

GC

I guess I just have a different philosophy than a lot of people in CAP.  I am a inclusion type of guy - not a exclusion type.   I believe in including as many people as I can in events and activities.  I follow the regulations - and don't impose higher standards just because I want to.   Uniforms don't make a great training experience - it is the quality of instruction that provides worth to the student.   It is also not the uniform that makes a person commit to CAP.  I personally don't care what they look like or what they wear (within regulation) as long as they show up on work details, training opportunities, and just in general commit their time and personal effort to ensure we can accomplish our missions when called upon.   The more people we train, the greater the pool of people we have to do our mission. 

[A.Member]

I guess I just have a different philosophy than a lot of people in CAP.  I am a inclusion type of guy - not a exclusion type.   I believe in including as many people as I can in events and activities.  I follow the regulations - and don't impose higher standards just because I want to.

Yep, different philosophy.  Sounds like you're more from the "quantity" viewpoint.   That's a view that doesn't benefit anyone IMO.  I too take an inclusionary approach...to the extent that those wishing to be included are willing to uphold the high standards expected of them.  Having more people is not necessarily better nor is it always desired.  We cannot nor should we attempt to be all things to all people. 

Uniforms don't make a great training experience - it is the quality of instruction that provides worth to the student.   It is also not the uniform that makes a person commit to CAP.  I personally don't care what they look like or what they wear (within regulation) as long as they show up on work details, training opportunities, and just in general commit their time and personal effort to ensure we can accomplish our missions when called upon.   

Like it or not, what uniforms do is reflect us as an organization - to people both inside and outside the organization.  They are a reflection of us, without a word being said; which is probably why there is so much discussion around them here as well.   There certainly is more to us than a uniform but they help to convey an image of consistent professionalism and attention to detail...when worn correctly.

[dwb]

Update: I just got back from teaching at the SLS that started this whole discussion.  Most students were in blues or the so-called TPU.  A couple of newer members in appropriate civilian attire.

As it turns out, the people in civilian attire are just as professional and contributed just as much to the discussion (in my two seminars, anyway) as the uniformed attendees.

As far as I can tell, the 40 students are all having a great time working together, meeting each other, and learning new things.  I'm going to have dinner with some of them tonight, I can ask if anyone was offended at the couple of non-uniformed personnel, although I expect the answer will be a resounding "no".

BTW, there's a difference between "inclusion" and "taking any warm body that rolls in".  I'm not going to turn a good student away from an SLS because they don't have blues.  If that means I'm "lowering the standards", well, we'll just agree to disagree on that point.

[Gunner C]

Agree 85%.  You are correct, but the uniform should be within one group of uniforms.  Example:  Choose AF blue short sleeved shirt w/o tie and no ribbons.  Acceptable substitutes would be corporate uniform with short sleeves and no ribbons or aviator shirt with grey pants and no ribbons.

This keeps it simple, inexpensive, and uniform.  I can tell you it makes a huge difference in the atmosphere.  If you make it "any authorized CAP uniform" (minus field/flight uniforms) you can have anything from polo shirts to full service uniform to mess dress (exaggeration for clarity).

In our class, we found that when everyone looked pretty much the same you could tell that everyone made an effort to be there, follow the rules, and learn something.  It helped with cohesion, teamwork, and gave everyone a feeling that they'd graduated from something special and worthwhile.

Once again, the higher the standards, the greater the worth to the student.

GC

I guess I just have a different philosophy than a lot of people in CAP.  I am a inclusion type of guy - not a exclusion type.   I believe in including as many people as I can in events and activities.  I follow the regulations - and don't impose higher standards just because I want to.   Uniforms don't make a great training experience - it is the quality of instruction that provides worth to the student.   It is also not the uniform that makes a person commit to CAP.  I personally don't care what they look like or what they wear (within regulation) as long as they show up on work details, training opportunities, and just in general commit their time and personal effort to ensure we can accomplish our missions when called upon.   The more people we train, the greater the pool of people we have to do our mission.

That is one of the reasons that USAF looks at us as a club rather than a professional force - we telegraph to them that we're rank amateurs - wannabees.  If you set the standard, then people will meet them.  No bar, no chin-ups. 

This has a direct bearing on the missions we get from 1st AF (notice that we're not swimming in them?)  That's because they don't have confidence in us as a whole.  If we won't do the basics, like wearing uniforms (much less wearing them correctly and showing pride in the organization) then they're not going to ask us to do the hard stuff (even dangerous stuff) because we aren't dedicated to what we do in their eyes.

As my boss told me before I retired: "Remember, It's not how you play, it's how you look."  If you don't think that the military really believes this, then you're kidding yourself.

The folks who choose not to wear uniforms are good people.  They're just not helping our cause with Mother Air Force.  We aren't either when we don't tell our people that ___________ is expected.

GC

Tag spacing - MIKE

[arajca]

Update: I just got back from teaching at the SLS that started this whole discussion.  Most students were in blues or the so-called TPU.  A couple of newer members in appropriate civilian attire.

As it turns out, the people in civilian attire are just as professional and contributed just as much to the discussion (in my two seminars, anyway) as the uniformed attendees.

As far as I can tell, the 40 students are all having a great time working together, meeting each other, and learning new things.  I'm going to have dinner with some of them tonight, I can ask if anyone was offended at the couple of non-uniformed personnel, although I expect the answer will be a resounding "no".

BTW, there's a difference between "inclusion" and "taking any warm body that rolls in".  I'm not going to turn a good student away from an SLS because they don't have blues.  If that means I'm "lowering the standards", well, we'll just agree to disagree on that point.

While I don't think folks would be offended by the folks not in uniform, I would wonder why they're not in uniform. Is it because they're new and do not have the appropriate uniform or is it because they don't want to wear the uniform?

[RiverAux]

This has a direct bearing on the missions we get from 1st AF (notice that we're not swimming in them?)  That's because they don't have confidence in us as a whole. 

The reason we don't get many missions from 1AF is that there just aren't that many missions that can be performed by our airplanes that would be of much help to them.  It has nothing to do with our uniform wear. 

[Eclipse]

While I don't think folks would be offended by the folks not in uniform, I would wonder why they're not in uniform. Is it because they're new and do not have the appropriate uniform or is it because they don't want to wear the uniform?

Its not about >a< uniform, its about setting a UOD in situations where not everyone has it.

Unlike our MC$ brethren, we are not issued uniforms, do not receive uniform subsidies, nor do we get consistent training or tasking between units, let alone on a wing or national scale.

Think its only our problem?  Poll some of you active duty members, especially flight or operations people - guys going to work as AD everyday and see how many of them have current service dress that fits - check you CAP RAPs.

I know several who are "good fells" - guy syou want in your unit and watching the wall, guys that spend their lives in a flightsuit or BDU's / ABU's, and when the odd day for a cermony comes up, they are digging into their CAP uniforms because they haven't worn a flightcap / service coat, whatever, in 5 years.

[Short Field]

As my boss told me before I retired: "Remember, It's not how you play, it's how you look."  If you don't think that the military really believes this, then you're kidding yourself.

The folks who choose not to wear uniforms are good people.  They're just not helping our cause with Mother Air Force.  We aren't either when we don't tell our people that ___________ is expected.
Tag spacing - MIKE

I am not talking about people who choose not to wear uniforms, just which ones they should have to wear.  And I have no question in my mind that Mother Air Force could care less about which CAP uniform we are wearing as long as we can get the mission accomplished.   

I also TOTALLY fail to see where trying to TRAIN more CAP MEMBERS is a "quanity" vs "quality" issue.  They are CAP members - the only way to improve the quality of the members is to train them.    I think the motto "The Few, The Proud" is already taken by another group.

[Gunner C]

As my boss told me before I retired: "Remember, It's not how you play, it's how you look."  If you don't think that the military really believes this, then you're kidding yourself.

The folks who choose not to wear uniforms are good people.  They're just not helping our cause with Mother Air Force.  We aren't either when we don't tell our people that ___________ is expected.

I am not talking about people who choose not to wear uniforms, just which ones they should have to wear.  And I have no question in my mind that Mother Air Force could care less about which CAP uniform we are wearing as long as we can get the mission accomplished.   

I also TOTALLY fail to see where trying to TRAIN more CAP MEMBERS is a "quanity" vs "quality" issue.  They are CAP members - the only way to improve the quality of the members is to train them.    I think the motto "The Few, The Proud" is already taken by another group.

I would have to disagree.  We could be a  better force if we were smaller but with higher standards.  The espirit de corps would be infectuous and there would be force multiplying effect.  I've seen it happen as a squadron and group commander. We had an initial drop in membership, then the numbers tripled.  The guys who left weren't doing anything, anyway. 

Higher standards works and has worked every time i've seen it tried.

Tag spacing - MIKE

[Short Field]

 

[A.Member]

I also TOTALLY fail to see where trying to TRAIN more CAP MEMBERS is a "quanity" vs "quality" issue.  They are CAP members - the only way to improve the quality of the members is to train them.    I think the motto "The Few, The Proud" is already taken by another group.

Who said training is a quantity v. quality issue?  I sure didn't.  However, what I did suggest is that what we are willing to accept of our membership is an indication of a quality v. quantity issue.  As an example, I'm interested very much in training people that demonstate both through actions and words that they want to be part of a team and are dedicated to the highest standards.  If a person is unable or unwilling to work at the "little" things - the low hanging fruit, if you will - what confidence should I or anyone else have in their ability to accurately/successfully complete more complex/important tasks?  I'm curious as to whether you've ever completed any type of professional officer's courses?  

[A.Member]

While I don't think folks would be offended by the folks not in uniform, I would wonder why they're not in uniform. Is it because they're new and do not have the appropriate uniform or is it because they don't want to wear the uniform?

Its not about >a< uniform, its about setting a UOD in situations where not everyone has it.

Unlike our MC$ brethren, we are not issued uniforms, do not receive uniform subsidies, nor do we get consistent training or tasking between units, let alone on a wing or national scale.

Think its only our problem?  Poll some of you active duty members, especially flight or operations people - guys going to work as AD everyday and see how many of them have current service dress that fits - check you CAP RAPs.

I know several who are "good fells" - guy syou want in your unit and watching the wall, guys that spend their lives in a flightsuit or BDU's / ABU's, and when the odd day for a cermony comes up, they are digging into their CAP uniforms because they haven't worn a flightcap / service coat, whatever, in 5 years.

Another big difference: it's known that they will perform and they get called no matter what.  We don't.  In otherwords, we have something to prove, they do not.  The result?  We must set our expectations high, across the board, and consistently meet and/or exceed them.  We've simply got to do it better.