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♠SARKID♠
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Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« on: February 26, 2008, 02:38:07 PM »

CAPR 77-1 says that CAP can not own water trailers.  Why is this?  I remember an incident as a boy scout when one of them fell on an army explorer's leg (gruesome sight).  What prompted NHQ to say nay nay on water trailers?

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           Capt. Dan Turkal
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sarmed1
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008, 02:56:30 PM »

I imagine its more about the sanitation than anything else.  If not cleaned and maintained properly you can make ill your entire activity.  Imagine the ramifications if CAP's trailer is just filled and refilled each activity with "potable" water and never cleaned or sanitized, then one days CAP's water source for encampment gives eveeryone one the runs...or worse. 

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
arajca
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 03:26:18 PM »

Another issue is towing a sloshing load. Ask any fuel tank driver about the effects of 1600 lbs of anything shifting while driving. (typical 200gal tank of water) Also consider few CAP drivers have trailer towing experience and few of these have dealt with shifting loads.
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NIN
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2008, 04:07:55 PM »

Another issue is towing a sloshing load. Ask any fuel tank driver about the effects of 1600 lbs of anything shifting while driving. (typical 200gal tank of water) Also consider few CAP drivers have trailer towing experience and few of these have dealt with shifting loads.

Recipe for disaster:

  • 400gal water buffalo
  • 2 1/2 ton truck
  • rain slicked Korean road
  • bus driver with crummy distance estimation skills.

Water weighs, what, 8lbs per gallon?   Plus 4 cooks and supplies for the field site in the back.  Oh, that was a fun day...

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008, 04:34:46 PM »

Most states have special license endorsements if you are going to be towing or driving anything with a tank.

When I turned 18, I got a job doing residential septic system inspections (I heard all the jokes) and had to get a license to drive what came with the job.

I was required to get a Class B with Tank, HAZMAT and Air Brake endorsements.  There was an obvious difference in stopping distances, corner speeds, etc with even a 1/4 of a tank (2000 gallons) of "sludge." 

The small water trailers like that also don't have baffles inside the tank to reduce the surge when stopping which in many cases can increase your stopping distance by almost 100 feet or more (depending on load).

Most people in CAP have trouble driving the 15 pack vans, nevermind one with a tank on the back.

As for why CAP prohibits their use, it might be an license endorsement issue or a health and sanitation issue as stated.
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SSgt Rudin
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Posts: 291

« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2008, 07:01:53 PM »

As for why CAP prohibits their use, it might be an license endorsement issue or a health and sanitation issue as stated.

I would just like to point out, that CAPR 77-1 does not prohibit their use, it prohibits CAP units from owning them. This is the same paragraph that prohibits us from owning ATV's, Buses, and Boats.

As to WHY we can't own them I would probably go with needing special licensing, and chances are this caused what ever insurance company CAP has to say "no" to water trailers. However, it's a trailer and depending on you states law's if you are using one and towing it with your trusty CAP van be careful because you may be on the hook, not CAP Inc, if something happens.
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SSgt Jordan Rudin, CAP
sarmed1
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2008, 01:09:09 AM »

Another thought comes to registering/plating them.  Maybe urban legend...but CAP's fleet (and thus its insurance costs) are based on a fixed number of vehicles (increases annualy as funding allows) Putting a plate on a trailer is the same as putting one on a van.  Which has overall more use to the program a 400 gallon water trailer or a 15 passenger van?

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
SarDragon
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2008, 01:21:23 AM »

Another thought comes to registering/plating them.  Maybe urban legend...but CAP's fleet (and thus its insurance costs) are based on a fixed number of vehicles (increases annualy as funding allows) Putting a plate on a trailer is the same as putting one on a van.  Which has overall more use to the program a 400 gallon water trailer or a 15 passenger van?

mk

AFAIK, trailers do not require insurance, and the registrations are much cheaper (5 yr for $10 in CA).

I think the primary issue is maintenance.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
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mynetdude
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2008, 02:51:10 AM »

Another thought comes to registering/plating them.  Maybe urban legend...but CAP's fleet (and thus its insurance costs) are based on a fixed number of vehicles (increases annualy as funding allows) Putting a plate on a trailer is the same as putting one on a van.  Which has overall more use to the program a 400 gallon water trailer or a 15 passenger van?

mk

AFAIK, trailers do not require insurance, and the registrations are much cheaper (5 yr for $10 in CA).


I can understand the maintenance concern as if it isn't maintained properly it could cause some serious health issues.

So, my question is: if CAP can't own ATVs and water trailers for a number of safety reasons which clearly makes sense because the insurance could be not so forgiving if anything happens....  why do we get to own/maintain generator trailers?  My squadron has a DoD issues generator trailer and we can use this to power equipment and light/lamps during a DR scenario when there is absolutely no power. This generator trailer is actually quite large and I have never seen it being actively used other than the occassional testing of it.

I ask about the generator trailers because if it isn't properly maintained you can do some boo boo serious damage with it too I am sure. So what difference does it make if we own a water trailer, a generator trailer or any kind of trailer for that matter as there are a lot of people who have difficulty managing a 15 pax van can they also manage however extra feet behind them that "follows" their turn and hopefully they don't end up cutting corners because they didn't make their turns wider.

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floridacyclist
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Tallahassee Composite Squadron
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2008, 09:46:38 AM »

Generator trailers won't make you sick or suddenly shift all their weight to one side while turning a corner. As far as safety, they are not much more hazardous than your house current, and most of their extra danger comes from the fact that htere is an internal combustion engine and fuel present.
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Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2008, 11:03:03 AM »

Generator trailers won't make you sick or suddenly shift all their weight to one side while turning a corner. As far as safety, they are not much more hazardous than your house current, and most of their extra danger comes from the fact that htere is an internal combustion engine and fuel present.

Yeah, your average trailer mounted generator set is about 50-100kw or so, and utterly inert when not running. (well, apart from the fuel tank, and if its a diesel, it might as well be inert)

I've driven a lot of vehicles with trailers, and I probably have more miles on a deuce and a half with a water buffalo behind it than I do in any other vehicle.  Its pretty crazy when you get 300 gal of water (when the buffalo is 3/4 full) sloshing around as you're fighting a cross wind, the trailer's natural tendency to wander, the maniacs passing you on a 2 lane road, people darting out into traffic and a co-driver who just won't shut up.  >:(

I've dragged buffalos, gen sets, helicopters (oh, THAT was a fun one), connex containers, milvans, other vehicles... just about anything that would get hitched to a CUCV or a deuce and I've hauled it.  I even had the joy of backing a trailer down a flood-control dike once to make a sharp corner onto a bridge... amazed the motor sergeant that someone in the unit besides one of his gear heads could do that..<GRIN>

If you call NHQ or our insurer and asked why no buffalos, I think you'd find the reason to be multi-fold:

Sanitation (know how to treat 400 gal of water? How about what you do to keep fungus from growing inside the tank? Ugh)
Insurance concerns (both on the road, and dispensing water)
Maintenance (ever watched them clean the inside of a water buffalo? Ain't pretty)

Is the military even using those any more for potable water?  My guess is no, since I remember the pallets upon pallets of bottled water sent to Saudi for the troops.  My guess is that they get used for non-potable fresh water applications, like maybe showers or something.

Honestly, for the number of times CAP would use something like that, I think the pain far outweighs the need.  Generator sets and even a kitchen trailer would get used more often.



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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
jimmydeanno
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2008, 11:16:04 AM »

Is the military even using those any more for potable water?  My guess is no, since I remember the pallets upon pallets of bottled water sent to Saudi for the troops.  My guess is that they get used for non-potable fresh water applications, like maybe showers or something.

I thought they were using those big water bladders - they look like a huge water bed...
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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2008, 11:26:36 AM »

I thought they were using those big water bladders - they look like a huge water bed...

You may be right!  I haven't been on a large-scale field exercise like that in a long time...<GRIN>

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
mynetdude
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Posts: 982

« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2008, 12:07:13 PM »

I've seen those big water bladders, but I haven't seen them in actual use.  Are they just as bad as hauling them around as to the water tank trailer?
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NIN
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2008, 12:52:29 PM »

I've seen those big water bladders, but I haven't seen them in actual use.  Are they just as bad as hauling them around as to the water tank trailer?

Nah, cuz they empty them, then fold them up and stick them in a connex or cargo truck.  They're filled from water tankers (big suckers), not buffalos.  IIRC, the bladders are > 1000 gal



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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
mynetdude
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 01:02:01 PM »

I've seen those big water bladders, but I haven't seen them in actual use.  Are they just as bad as hauling them around as to the water tank trailer?

Nah, cuz they empty them, then fold them up and stick them in a connex or cargo truck.  They're filled from water tankers (big suckers), not buffalos.  IIRC, the bladders are > 1000 gal



So the bladders are never moved while full? Though I do realize the point that there is a water tanker onsite but the bladder I am sure is moved throughout the points nearby the water tanker I am sure.

**Edit fixed a quote tag
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 01:32:54 PM by mynetdude » Logged
jimmydeanno
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2008, 01:07:20 PM »

So the bladders are never moved while full? Though I do realize the point that there is a water tanker onsite but the bladder I am sure is moved throughout the points nearby the water tanker I am sure.

The last Ft Pickett encampment I went to, they had an FOB set up.  There was a water bladder set up and it was placed directly on the ground and filled.  I don't see any feasible way for them to move them with fluid in them, just pull the plug fold it up and off they go.
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
DNall
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2008, 01:33:56 PM »

Buffalos do get used for potable water. They got em all over Benning.

Bladders mostly do not get moved full, but can be. They get flown around sometimes.
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sarmed1
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« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 10:57:46 PM »

What I find really entertaining is HMRS has both an ATV (Gator) and 2 water buffalo's...one of which is painted in CAP colors and markings as well as the ATV with CAP command patch.  More so last year the King (ex) and his retainers including the wing legal officer were in attendance and no one even questioned them.....

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
♠SARKID♠
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Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2008, 11:13:55 PM »

Intriguing, but I think there's a pretty significant difference between a gator versus something like a Honda Rubicon or a TRX.  I see gators as sumo sized golf carts, not ATVs.
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           Capt. Dan Turkal
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arajca
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« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2008, 11:27:19 PM »

Gators, Mules, Rangers (Polaris, not Hawk Mtn), etc. are classed as utility vehicles, not ATV's.
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sarmed1
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2008, 03:16:09 AM »

thats ok I know some rangers (not Hawk type) that could be classified as utility vehicles........ (or mules or gators for that matter)

so its more of a gray area between ATV and licensed/registered vehicle

all we need is a boat and we are set......

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
mynetdude
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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2008, 09:03:27 AM »

thats ok I know some rangers (not Hawk type) that could be classified as utility vehicles........ (or mules or gators for that matter)

so its more of a gray area between ATV and licensed/registered vehicle

all we need is a boat and we are set......

mk

nevermind the boat, we need a zodiac!
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2008, 09:01:45 AM »

See...this is the type of hygiene things that would happen to us - I hate rashes...

"Water makes US Troops in Iraq sick..."
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080309/D8V9S64G0.html

Although it wasn't the potable water, we can see that this is a real danger that we would be faced with if we used these types of things. 
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
♠SARKID♠
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Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2008, 10:19:23 AM »

See...this is the type of hygiene things that would happen to us - I hate rashes...

"Water makes US Troops in Iraq sick..."
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080309/D8V9S64G0.html

Although it wasn't the potable water, we can see that this is a real danger that we would be faced with if we used these types of things. 


I'm not surprised at that.  Halliburton has been skimping out on the water quality for years.  The only guy who wanted to speak out about it was the guy going from tank to tank actually testing the water, and the fired his butt right quick.
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           Capt. Dan Turkal
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gistek
Forum Regular

Posts: 137

« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 07:24:58 PM »

If you want a water buffalo for an event, contact your local National Guard. Most have access to properly maintained water buffalos and can safely transport them to and from your site.

Another source for bulk water is local water delivery companies. You know the ones that supply those 5 gallon bottles for the free standing coolers. Most have the ability to supply potable water on short notice to existing customers. With the companies I have contacted, "Existing Customer" means you have at least one delivery a month of 5 or more gallons. If your unit as a whole doesn't need that much water, perhaps one of your members would be interested in a home or business account.

I have a home account and love it. Yes, it's slightly more expensive than tap water, but it tastes loads better and I love the convenience of instant hot water. I have 2 to 3 three gallon bottles delivered twice a month.
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mikeylikey
Banned

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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2008, 09:31:54 PM »

7 Years ago I was able to get Gatorade to donate 4 pallats of orange flavored energy drink.  We ended up with over 550 bottles.  We had so many we forced Cadets to take them home after the Encampment.  I have also had luck with Power Bar and Johnson and Johnson. 

Not enough people doing Activities take the time to write a one page letter.  I spent 2 hours writing to over 10 separate companies, each a form letter, and got back 10 replies, and 4 definite donation award letters. 

The National Guard loves to support Cadet activities!  I have received huge support in way of office supplies to MRE's to vehicles (don't tell on me). 

Off Topic....but I highly reccomend writing to bottled water companies.  Coca-Cola will probably support with limited quantities through their community outreach group.  All it takes is a letter!!
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SSgt Rudin
Seasoned Member

Posts: 291

« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2008, 11:10:16 PM »

7 Years ago I was able to get Gatorade to donate 4 pallats of orange flavored energy drink.  We ended up with over 550 bottles.  We had so many we forced Cadets to take them home after the Encampment.  I have also had luck with Power Bar and Johnson and Johnson. 

Not enough people doing Activities take the time to write a one page letter.  I spent 2 hours writing to over 10 separate companies, each a form letter, and got back 10 replies, and 4 definite donation award letters. 

The National Guard loves to support Cadet activities!  I have received huge support in way of office supplies to MRE's to vehicles (don't tell on me). 

Off Topic....but I highly reccomend writing to bottled water companies.  Coca-Cola will probably support with limited quantities through their community outreach group.  All it takes is a letter!!

Typing my letter to Dunkin' Donuts now  ;D
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SSgt Jordan Rudin, CAP
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