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arajca
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2005, 02:38:05 PM »

Nothing ticks me off more than to see SM's that work with cadets wear the blue shirt grey slcaks combo. How can you tell a cadet to wear his uniform correctly, if you don wear one yourself? Its not setting a good example in my book. Thats why I tell Sm's that work with me they WILL wear one of the military style uniforms or they wont work with cadets. You can wear the BDU uniform even if you dont met the height and weight standard

This is how who got into the topic of uiforms.
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Matt
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North Central Region
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2005, 02:56:29 PM »

ah, thank you...

*amended*
For clarification, the Blue shirt and Gray slacks (not as I originally thought) refers to the Polo/golf shirt and gray slacks.

Perhaps the SM's instructing are setting an example.  CAP as stated by arajca in a later post, we're paramilitary.  We also have a professional image to maintain.  The polo and slacks maintains the professional image and maintains uniformity among SM's.
*end amendment*
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 06:02:35 PM by Matt » Report to moderator   Logged
Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
arajca
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2005, 04:53:19 PM »

ah, thank you...

So, we can all agree that perhaps someone should make some SM's read books.  Heaven forbid that they have to read a little bit to know what the organization is and what it's about.  God have mercy if they had to pick up a reg/manual.

I concur with Flyguy, although I have never seen it (the SNAFU uniform combo), the fact that a SM would be instructing a cadet on something that they themselves cannot do is simply BS.  Do as you ask of those you command (Gen. George S. Patton).

Since you obviously have a problem with senior members, perhaps you should find out how much they put into keeping your unit running. (Hint: 90% or more happens outside the meetings and away from cadets).

As I stated before, I think Flyguy is way off base.

I also see a major flaw in your logic. Just because someone doesn't wear the same uniform as you doesn't mean they don't know how to wear it.  I don't wear the AF uniforms, but I teach the correct way to wear it. The example the cadets need to follow is the cadet leadership. One decision that I made - much to the dismay of the cadet staff - was the cadet staff could not wear the service coat to regular meetings until ALL the cadets could consistantly wear their uniforms correctly. For special occasions they can still wear it.

Requiring more than what National requires in this case isn't a good thing. If my unit commander came out an said that any member working with cadets had to wear the AF uniform would find himself working with cadets alone - that includes ML classes. Also, he'd find it real hard to get o-rides since most of the pilots wear the golf shirt uniform. National requires that members working with cadet wear a CAP uniform.
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arajca
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2005, 05:00:33 PM »

To get back to the original topic:

CAP is not a military organization like the US Army or Air Force.

CAP is a paramilitary organization. Meaning it follows a military based structure.
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Matt
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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2005, 05:59:03 PM »

And back to the side...

I have no problem with people telling me how to wear my uniform while they wear a different uniform.  The logic behind my statement comes from a mis-interpretation now that I look back.  I mis-read the statement, I took it as a Blues shirt and Gray slacks (as in the aviator combo).  I forgot about the blue POLO shirt that SM's are allowed to wear.

Looking at it correctly, I would have to side with you.  If they're wearing the corp. uniform, then yes, there should be no problem.  Perhaps it is setting an example (not in all cases, but in some) perhaps the SM's are out of W/G standards and by wearing the polo/slacks combo they are within the regs, that in and of itself is admirable.

My apologies for my misreading (amendment will be made on previous).

Side Note: You infer that I have a problem with all SM's, please let me put this out - NO.  Most of my SM's have been in for the better duration of their lives, I have the utmost respect and loyalty to them, they know that.  For SM's I regularly meet, I have no problem with, in fact, I get along with 98% of them.  The 2% I don't get along with are those who think they are God's and Cadets know diddly squat.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2005, 04:59:02 PM »

I love Civil Air Patrol!  It is a paramilitary VOLUNTEER organization.  How much military attitude is put into it depends on the unit.  I have scene the gambit range from para-marines to a social flying club.  Each group of members should really find out what fits for them and stick with it.

I also do not wear the AF blue uniform has I am over weight.  I primarily wear the white aviator shirt with the gray slacks, so I can proudly wear the rank and Civil Air Patrol awards that I have earned.  It is an approved Civil Air Patrol distinctive uniform.  I have yet to purchase the Blue BDUs, I know that I need to.  I feel I set a fine example to the cadets when I wear the white & grays.  Better than if I tried to shove my self into my old AF blues. 

If anyone told me or anyone like me that we could not work with cadets because of that, then myself and the MAJORITY of seniors I know would be lost to the organization.

My unit is very active and we do a lot for the Cadets.

That would be an immensely sad day.  Look around you, how much would get done?  Would you have the support you truly need?
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Julie Anne
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2005, 03:15:39 AM »

CAP is not a military organization per se, but we do follow military rules and regulations and military customs and courtesies. The cadet program is very military and I believe that if you are a senior member that works with cadets, you should conform to military customs as well. Nothing ticks me off more than to see SM's that work with cadets wear the blue shirt gray slacks combo. How can you tell a cadet to wear his uniform correctly, if you don wear one yourself? Its not setting a good example in my book. Thats why I tell Sm's that work with me they WILL wear one of the military style uniforms or they wont work with cadets. You can wear the BDU uniform even if you don't met the height and weight standard

 :) Please be careful you could be opening yourself up to a lot of problems if you disallow people who can not (or should not) wear the AF Style uniform from working with the cadets. 

Also the weight standards do apply to the BDUs.  It just seems to me that a lot of members ignore this fact.
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Julie Anne
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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2005, 06:56:10 AM »

[redacted]  Also the weight standards do apply to the BDUs.  It just seems to me that a lot of members ignore this fact.
I'm hoping you are referring only to the AF-style camo BDUs. The Blue BDUs have no weight restrictions. flyguy06 was a bit unclear in his reference.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2005, 10:00:58 AM »

I don't think we'll ever reach consensus in answering the original question.  Each of us sees CAP from different perspectives.

Personally, I joined CAP three months ago because of its core values, rather than for any particular organizational style.  CAP allows me to volunteer in a variety of ways, and to work with others who choose to do the same.

There are times when I appreciate the military aspects of CAP, such as the purpose of uniforms, observing military customs and courtesies, and the focus on missions. But I also enjoy the non-military aspects of my relationship with cadets and other senior members.

More specifically, I use the core value of Respect when it comes to uniforms. For me, the type of uniform isn't as important as how we work together to accomplish our missions. I wear the AF-style blues, but that in no way detracts from my respect for my fellow SM's who do not.  Their experience and dedication are inspiring, regardless of grade, rank, or uniform style.

So, I side with Julie's earlier post. I agree that CAP would lose a lot of qualified and dedicated SM's over an intolerant insistence on a certain uniform, whether that comes from other SM's or from cadets. I am especially concerned that cadets are allowed to show disrespect for SM's just because of the type of uniform worn. I've not seen that happen in our squadron, and hope I never do.
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Dan Bilitz, Capt, CAP
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flyguy06
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2005, 06:16:23 PM »

Let me try and clarify what I meant. I am a young Seniro Member . I am also inthe military. I try to put myself in the cadets shoes. If someone came up to me and said for example that my gigline was off or that my shoes were not to standard. The first thing Iwould do is look at them to se if they are in standard. Now, if they dont even have on the same thing that I have on, they have no rom to tell me anything. Cause they are not seetting the example. Set the example is a serious leadership principle that I have learned throughout the years and one that I try everyday to follow not just in CAP, but in everything I do. We as SM's that work with cadets must set the pace. NEVER make a statement that the cadets should look up to the senior cadets and not the SM's. If you really feel that way, then why are you aroound? To babysit? I really dont mean to offend anyne, but that logic just doesnt make sense to me.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2005, 06:21:14 PM »

Civil AIr Patrol is NOT the military. We are military like though. We follow military rules and customs. I like to think of CAP as a psuedo ROTC program. We teach leadership using the military as a tool to teach leadership. Yes, I am probably one of those people that others will say joined CAP to exert authority. Thats not true, but that fine if they think that. I want my cadets to be the best leaders they can be. Iwant to instill responsibility, discipline and leadership in them at an erly age. You can fly an airplane at the age of 16. Before Iput a 16 year old inthe air Iam going to make sure he has what it takes. Many cadets want to go into the military either as pilots or something else. SO, Iuse CAP to give them an introduction to what the military is like. When I was a cadet, it helped me for when I beame a soldier. Thats my 2 cents.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2005, 06:39:59 PM »

[redacted] If someone came up to me and said for example that my gigline was off or that my shoes were not to standard. The first thing Iwould do is look at them to se if they are in standard. Now, if they dont even have on the same thing that I have on, they have no rom to tell me anything. [further redacted]
Someone doesn't have to be wearing the same uniform as you to know something about it. I can stand in front of you in civilian clothes and pick out most of the problems that you have on your uniform. I've spent a significant part of my life wearing one uniform or another, and there are certain common features that cross organizational lines. I don't know what service you are in, but I can still pick out things that might be wrong with it because of that commonality.

As for your commentary on CAP vs. military, it is partly correct. Since CAP is not the military, you can't use all the military training techniques you learned in boot camp. To do so would violate CAP regulations. We are dealing with juveniles here, not adults, so the rules and procedures are going to be different. It is very important to work within these rules to provide the best training for our cadets. And we are NOT a pseudo-ROTC program - the goals are entirely different, in spite of the similarities.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2005, 07:56:41 PM »

If someone came up to me and said for example that my gigline was off or that my shoes were not to standard. The first thing I would do is look at them to see if they are in standard. Now, if they don't even have on the same thing that I have on, they have no room to tell me anything. Cause they are not setting the example. Set the example is a serious leadership principle that I have learned throughout the years and one that I try everyday to follow not just in CAP, but in everything I do. We as SM's that work with cadets must set the pace. NEVER make a statement that the cadets should look up to the senior cadets and not the SM's. If you really feel that way, then why are you around? To babysit? I really don't mean to offend anyone, but that logic just doesn't make sense to me.

 :) I have been in Civil Air Patrol for going on 19 years.  I was a cadet, achieving cadet officer grade, and have, in the past,  worn the Civil Air Patrol's version of the Air Force Uniform.  I have experience and education to share, I am not a babysitter.  I am a team member with many very fine young adults that we refer to as cadets.  I am willing to teach others and to learn in turn.  I wear my uniform properly, which is now the white and grays.  And this is some of what I believe helps to make me a good leader.

I know that many cadets and seniors respect me, some of whom are members on CAPtalk.  These cadets are VERY impressive in appearance, mannerisms, and willingness to advance their education and training (as in the cadet oath, yes I still know it by heart) and more.

I am not at all offended, I am only trying to let you know that you could be helping the cadets more if you look beyond to discover all of the aspects that CAP has to offer.  Regardless of uniform that opportunity is packaged in.  Civil Air Patrol is SO MUCH more than an introduction to military life.

I am glad that you are so passionate about Civil Air Patrol.  ;D
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Julie Anne
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flyguy06
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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2005, 09:09:32 AM »

I am NOT saying that you would not be able to see deficiencies. I am saying that you have no right to corret me on them if you are not wearing he same thing I wear. I would lokk at you like you funny, and this is the opinion of most of the cadets I talk to. I didnt just make this up cause Iamin the military. I talk to cadets and I ask them what they like about CAP and what they dont like about CAP, and well, at least in my part of Aemrica that is one issue they addresed.
CAP squadrons are differant. They are ran differant and thats a good thing. I run my cadet program like an ROTC unit,  Maybe some people dont.  I don tuse all the military techniques, but then again, I dont traet them like boy scouts either ( and I was a boy scout too as well as a cadet)

Again, I remember what CAP did for my leadership development  and I want to develop young aerospace leaders and young leaders period. 90% of my squadron is mlitary or former military. SO, thats our perspective. I am in the process now of developing a flight encampment. It will be run similarly to UPT.

Yes, I am very passionate about CAP. I am passionate about my community.
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Major_Chuck
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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2005, 01:58:22 PM »

CAP is what each member makes it.  We've all joined for various reasons and bring to the table what we wish to offer. 

In 1990 it was a means for me to maintain my relationship with the Air Force.  Since then I've been fortunate to be able to grow within CAP and experience many, many opportunties within our 'three missions'.

How we view ourselves, CAP the Corporation or CAP the USAF Auxiliary all depends upon what our mission and activity at the time is.  We can debate what we should be or call ourselves until the end of time. 

We have a lot of members who sit on the sidelines and complain about policy, regulations or the future of CAP but do nothing to positively make an impact on those concerns or complaints.  Each member from the Cadet Basic to the Maj Gen has a duty and responsibility to actively participate in this organization on some level or capacity.

Uniforms:  We are required to wear our uniforms correctly and we should wear them proudly, regardless of if it is a USAF style or CAP Distinctive.  CAP Officers working directly with Cadets should wear the same uniform combination or at least the CAP Distinctive uniform equivilent to what the cadets are wearing.  But what about the CAP Officer who is just there to lend a hand or teach a class and does not actively participate with Cadets.  They need to be in a proper uniform but it should not matter which one, as long as it is worn correctly and presents a professional image of both CAP and the USAF.

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Chuck Cranford
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capchiro
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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2005, 02:07:05 PM »

Unfortunately, you are wrong in your statement that if someone is not in the same uniform as the person they are inspecting they have no right to correct the person.  Any senior member outranks the highest cadet in the program.  Respect and obedience is attached to rank, not uniform.  The basic uniform for senior members is the aviator white shirt and grey slacks.  This is the uniform that CAP requires senior members to have, all other uniforms are optional.  Do you have the aviator shirt and grey slacks?  If you are running your unit like a military unit and are using push-ups, etc., for punishment, you are in violation of CAP hazing regulations.  It is just that simple.  One needs to look at the overall CAP program to determine how military we are.  Handicapped people, people of any age over 12, and people of all sizes and weights are welcome in our program.  That is not so in the military.  We are here to help create self-esteem and a feeling of accomplishment in our cadets, not a feeling of not being good enough, lean enough, mean enough, or rough enough.  This is not the Rangers or Green Berets.  This is a quasi-military civilian corporation.  Perhaps one might want to review the movie TAPS as a leadership exercise and see some of the pitfalls of hardcare military training of youngsters.  CAP was originally designed to be a senior program and to utilize seniors to assist the military as civilians.  Many of these civilians did not qualify for active duty military service.  The same is true today.  The cadet program was an add-on and would not exist for a day without the assistance of countless overweight, too old, out of shape, non-military wearing senior members that give tirelessly of their time, effort and money.  I suggest that some people reconsider whether they are part of the problem or part of the solution.  I have often found that young military types are an asset to the program to help with drill and ceremony and leadership, but I have also found that many times they are a detriment to the program through their zest, zeal and inability to read and properly interpret CAP regulations.  This is just my opinion.  I have many years in CAP, I served in the military, I come from an Air Force family and my oldest son went to the Air Force Academy.  I am not bragging, just letting everyone know that I am not anti-military, but I am pro-CAP and know the difference.  For everyone's edification, there is another thread under Uniforms that points out that BDU's are not required for cadets or anyone else in the CAP program and ties in to this question of how military is CAP and questions the legitmacy of commanders requiring anyone to wear BDU's....I am sure that I have said more than enough at this point....       
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
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SarDragon
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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2005, 08:18:47 PM »

I am NOT saying that you would not be able to see deficiencies. I am saying that you have no right to corret me on them if you are not wearing he same thing I wear. [redacted]
Yes, I do! If we are both in CAP and you are wearing a crappy uniform, I will most assuredly tell you about it, regardless of what I'm wearing. Since I first joined CAP, I've been through at least half a dozen different dress uniform combinations, and many more variations of non-dress uniforms and wore them all in the proper manner.

Just because I no longer wear AF-style uniforms because of my facial hair makes me no less an expert on how to wear it. As a cadet leader in my last unit, I was responsible for staying current on uniform issues, and as the Admin Officer, I made sure the entire unit was kept up-to-date on changes in directives.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2005, 08:58:57 PM »

.
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shorning
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« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2005, 06:56:54 AM »

I am NOT saying that you would not be able to see deficiencies. I am saying that you have no right to corret me on them if you are not wearing he same thing I wear.

Well...you'd be wrong.  Still!  Are you sure you're in the military?

I work in a joint command.  Even though I don't wear the same uniform as the Army, Navy, or Marines I work with, I still know how their uniforms should be worn.  If I don't know about an item, I ask or find out.  As a SNCO, if a soldier is wearing their uniform wrong, it's my duty to correct the problem.

It's no different with the different uniforms in CAP.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2005, 10:19:34 PM »

I am NOT saying that you would not be able to see deficiencies. I am saying that you have no right to corret me on them if you are not wearing he same thing I wear.

Well...you'd be wrong.  Still!  Are you sure you're in the military?

I work in a joint command.  Even though I don't wear the same uniform as the Army, Navy, or Marines I work with, I still know how their uniforms should be worn.  If I don't know about an item, I ask or find out.  As a SNCO, if a soldier is wearing their uniform wrong, it's my duty to correct the problem.

It's no different with the different uniforms in CAP.

Very well put, Colonel.  Thank you.  :)
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
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