Flight Line Marshlers 2.0

[SSgt Rudin]

Continued debate

If it is so critical to have them, then why doesnt' 60-1 require flight line marshallers whenever a CAP aircraft is doing something?  Why do we only do it at SAREXs?  It isn't a safety issue and I could argue that the risks of having relatively untrained adults/kids trying to guide moving aircraft around is probably higher than anything that they might mitigate by being present.

Thats a good question, and I don't have an answer for you. I believe that a FLM should be required when ever a CAP aircraft is operating. You call our current FLM's relatively untrained, however they are no more trained in aircraft handling than a brand new GTM3 is in SAR.

[thp]

...the risks of having relatively untrained adults/kids trying to guide moving aircraft...

That is kind of the point of a qualification. That they are trained!

[RiverAux]

To me this is a risk vs benefit situation.  We actually need people out on the ground looking for missing persons, airplanes, etc.  We do not need marshallers guiding CAP aircraft around an airfield.  Both are generally low risk situations (I've never heard of a cadet getting chopped up on a flight line), but the benefit of having them on a flightline is much lower than having them doing other activities, so in my estimation, isn't worth the risk.

Yes, we provide some basic flight line training to our crews, but I would hardly call them masters of the art. 

 

[IceNine]

Apparently there is a benefit for having FLM known in the "real world" as linemen.

Wether in a 150 or a 717 pilots can easily lose depth perception and clip their wing on whatever may be in their path.

Now if you take into account that a good majority of our operations are run down rows of t-hangar's, or on other tight areas for aircraft.  Is it really worth it to have the extra 3 people in the field?  If we are looking for a downed aircraft, missing person, or doing recon and one of our planes is taken out of the mix because of body damage from a preventable cause, are we going to be able to explain that to the air force?  I think any pleas for forgiveness in a situation like that will fall on deaf ears.

Given proper training and "Semper Vi" there is little danger on a ramp like this especially with the absence of turbine engines. 

The other built in value that you gain from this is a crew of people who have eyes on all of our aircraft all of the time, and are there to remind that aircrew that just landed that they still need to arrange fueling, and get their crap out of the aircraft after they drain their sumps.

[SSgt Rudin]

To me this is a risk vs benefit situation.  We actually need people out on the ground looking for missing persons, airplanes, etc.  We do not need marshallers guiding CAP aircraft around an airfield.  Both are generally low risk situations (I've never heard of a cadet getting chopped up on a flight line), but the benefit of having them on a flightline is much lower than having them doing other activities, so in my estimation, isn't worth the risk.

Yes, we provide some basic flight line training to our crews, but I would hardly call them masters of the art.   

Lets be honest, lets say you have a cadet who only wants to go on missions to work on the flight line. If they have taken the time to get qualified as a FLM and you have a FLS or if they are a FLS whats the harm?

Situation A: Lets say you are operating 2 aircraft. Cadet bob runs out there catches them gets them parked and launches their relief. OK now what? Well cadet bob goes back to the ICS looks around and hopefully says "any one need any help while I'm waiting for them to come back?" and if he doesn't you give him something to do until they come back.

Situation B: You are operating 5+ aircraft cadet bob and his other FLM's barley have a chance to "relieve" them selves let alone sit around the ICS doing nothing. Well in this case maybe you did need them out there.

Maybe being a FLM should only be part of a bigger qualification, something along the lines of a Plane Captain.http://www.c7f.navy.mil/news/2003/August/24.htm Obviously they wont be as trained or capable of preforming the same functions as a USN plane captain, but someone else making sure the fluid levels and tire pressure are ok, as well as the aircraft being FOD free can't hurt.

[_]

Disclaimer: I didn't read the last thread so someone may have said something similar to what I'm about to say.  I am not a CAP FLM but I spent 3.5 years working as a "professional" lineman on a GA ramp at a busy class B airport. 

I have always thought of the primary purpose of a lineman/FLM in CAP is to be there to watch out for the people on the ramp.  It's fairly easy for a Cessna pilot to park himself without much problem.  It happens all of the time in the GA world.  I see the real benefit of a FLM as being a set of eyes on the ramp that has a feel of how the ramp is operating and is there to keep the people walking across the ramp out of trouble.  This is a real benefit during SAREX's and large missions where there can be a lot of people on the ramp and a lot of spinning props.  The aircrews are usually thinking about what they have to do and it's good to have people who are there just watching out for other people.  I don't mean the following as an insult, especially since I am a pilot, but one thing I've learned is that pilots can become dumb on the ground.  Flying takes up a fair amount of brain power and sometimes doesn't leave a lot left for avoiding hazards while walking.  Again it's not meant as an insult.  I've seen professional pilots nearly get run over by large jets just because they were putting themselves in the mindset of flying.  In those cases it's good to have people who understand how that ramp is working to tell then to watch out for the plane starting up right next to theirs.  Busy ramps becoming living things and you need people who understand the mood of the ramp to watch out for others.

[bosshawk]

Just to add some gray hair to this topic: I took part in a big search up in the Sierras in CA a number of years ago.  If I recall correctly, we had upwards of 25-27 aircraft on an uncontrolled field for a number of days.  We had cadet Marshallers and a Senior to supervise them for several of those days and they earned their pay.  Try keeping that many airplanes moving in some sort of safe directions with most of the pilots unfamiliar with the runway and taxiway patterns and you have the potential for problems.  I, for one, was glad to have them: they made my life a lot easier and I felt safer for their help.  After your second three hour sortie for that day, in the high rocks, you tend to lose some of your careful concentration.

FYI: I have over 300 pilot hours flying searches in the Sierras and I have the utmost respect for those mountains.

[RiverAux]

If we're talking about super large missions like that on unfamiliar fields, yes, there can be some value to having marshallers.  But for more typical CAP SAREX's/missions thats another story. 

[SSgt Rudin]

If we're talking about super large missions like that on unfamiliar fields, yes, there can be some value to having marshallers.  But for more typical CAP SAREX's/missions thats another story. 

And how often do those missions happen? If you don't let people utilize their training it will take time for them to get in "the zone." So what if it is not necessary for a marshaler to be out on a mission with one or two aircraft, they will get to utilize their training and others can be trained for that one time you need 10 of them and have 3 qualified and 7 *FLM.

[RiverAux]

That is a fair comment, but the flipside is how much time should we devote to training for a specific event that may only happen every 10-20 years in most places when we could be training them for skills that are needed on missions every year?  CAP has a continuous and ongoing need for ground team personnel, and could have a even higher need if we promoted our ground SAR capability more effectively. 

In larger states where flightlines with 20+ planes are more common, perhaps a FLM would actually have the opportunity to really utilize those skills on a regular basis and maybe its worthwhile.  But in small to mid size states where most missions are going to be 10 planes or less, I don't think its needed at all.

[Short Field]

We recently started using Flight Line Marshelers and they can really speed up operations. 

Prior to using FLMs, the MP or MO would stay with the aircraft until the refueling truck arrived, watched the refueling, then went to the FBO  to get the fuel ticket.  Then they would start the debreifing.   Depending on the airport activity, it could delay the debriefing up to an hour.  Now, once the crew lands and does their post-flight check, they leave the keys with the FLMs and go to Mission Base to start the debriefing.  This is also speeded up since the FLMs use golf carts to move the crews.  The next crew using the airplane can also start their pre-flight since the airplane is unlocked (all unattended aircraft are locked).   Flight line safety is also improved.  During a SAREX,  the aircraft are not parked in their normal spots but grouped together on the flight line.  An outside set of eyes really helps in parking.  In additiona, we can use people in that function that were not interested in functions.

For normal day to day flying, any GA pilot should be able to move an aircraft from its normal parking spot, fly it, and return it to the parking spot without help.

[afgeo4]

From my understanding, marshalers are beneficial by reducing the risk of an accident. They are not, however, required.

Any pilot should be able to taxi out or into a parking space, no matter what size or type the aircraft is. Sure, having marshalers makes it just that much safer, if they're properly trained and experienced. If not... the pilot should be able to taxi and park relatively safely and if not, perhaps he/she shouldn't be doing it.

Just think of how many missions we wouldn't be able to fly out of almost never used rural airports simply because we couldn't find a marshaler. We already have a tough time finding aircrews! If you have one, use him/her. If not, make the best of what you have.

[BillB]

Interesting.  On one hand you have pilots saying we don't need to train cadets for FLM it's better to ntrain them for ground teams. One another thread senior members argue that cadets shouldn't be on ground teams because they may hurt themselves or see bodies. You get the impression that SAREX are only to train aircrews.
I've observed some pretty dumb CAP pilots over the years. Such as checking opil and not closing and locking the cowl cover. a FLM would be able to see this and warn the aircrew. Or trying to taxi, forgetting to untie the tail tiedown, or trying to taxi with the wheel chocks still in place. I'm not anti-pilot as I have over 7500 hours and a seaplane and multi engine rating. But pilots. myself included often make dumb mistakes. Cadets as FLM can often correct the errors. The extra pairs of eyes cadets provide after training is invaluable. SAREX are held to train CAP members, both seniors and cadets, aircrews, ground teams and all mission positions including FLM. Most all mission positions are required for actual missions, so all training is a must.

[LittleIronPilot]

I see the value of FLM's on larger missions, and actually have no problem with utilizing/training them on small, even single plane, SAREX's. After all they need to be trained and ready to do the job.

However I would never MANDATE them for anything less then, say 10 aircraft or so.

I cannot tell you how hard it would be to get a mission rolling with a single plane if we need FLM's for every mission. *shudder*

[Al Sayre]

I think the need for FLM's should be left up to the IC or AOBD based on the local ramp conditions and the number of aircraft.  Some ramps are tight even for a single aircraft, and an extra set of eyes that keep you from dinging a wingtip are always handy.