Question for al you GT gurus

[flyguy06]

Ok, you guys know how I feel about ES and CP. But believe it or not, i do want to get my GT Leader rating back. I had it some ten years ago, but since the inception of the SQTR's I need to basically start from scratch.

SO, I was looking at the website today and had a question. First of all, according to the GT Leader SQTR, I need to have the GTM 3, 2, or 1. So, what I read that to mean is all I need is GTM 3 and I should be good. I was looking at GTM 2 and 1 and its the same stuff for GT leader, so if I finish GT Leader I should automatically get the GTM 2 and 1.

Second question. On tasks O-0301 and task O-0302, does this require using a Direaction Finder?

Well, thats all I have for right now. One if my new years resolutions is to get my GTL certification as well as Mission Pilot certification

[davedove]

I waslooking at GTM 2 and 1 and its the same stuff for GT leader, so if I finish GT Leader I should automatically get the GTM 2 and 1.

Not quite, for while most of the tasks will carry over, you would still need the mission credits for each level.

[jeders]

All you need is GTM3, then you can start training for GTL. If you want GTM2,1 then you need to train for those seperately.

For 0302, Obviously if you're going to locate it, you're going to need some sort of direction finder. It does not have to be with an L-Per, but some sort of radio direction finder is needed.

For 0301, if you can see the beacon, you can determine a bearing to it with a compass. But it's intended to be done with a direction finder pointing you to the beacon and then using a compass to determine the bearing.

[Eclipse]

O-0301 - My answer would be yes, because using anything else your accuracy is going to be so poor that you'll be wasting mission time, however I'm sure someone will argue that you can do this easily with a
piece of tin foil and a transistor radio.

The majority of CAP search missions are electronic searches for distress beacons. Correct use of DF
equipment is critical to these searches. The first step to locating distress beacon is to determine the general
direction to the location of the distress beacon. (NOTE: This section was written using the popular L-tronics
LH-16 l-per as the DF unit. Technical procedures should be adapted by units with other equipment)..

To me this indicates you should be using some sort of purpose-built DF and not a scanner or similar.

O-0302 - I would say no, locate is just that - actually find it.

However YMMV based on Wing or the SET.

[IceNine]

One point to note,
  You CAN become a GTL with just GTM-3 but you are limited to only being able to lead a team that is GTM-3 Capable.

You are going to be much better off to get all 3 levels of GTM and then get your GTL, or at least make sure that you backfill those quals.


You will be much more useful if you are a GTM-1/GTL

[RiverAux]

That makes no sense.  Citation please?

[flyguy06]

Thanks and sorry for not proofreading my post.

So, you are saying that if I only have GTM3 and GTL, I can only lead a Ground team with GTM 3 members? But it doesnt make sencse. The requirements for GTL are the same as GTM 2 and 1 except for the mission participation. So why waste time participating in a mission as a GTM2 and 1 when I already meet the requirements for GTL?

[IceNine]

You're correct I missed one word and changed the meaning of the reg.

Your team is to operate to the level of the lowest supervised member,

So, if you have even 1 GTM-3 your team can only operate at that level

[flyguy06]

Ok, so that beckons another question.

When you say operate, what do you mean. What can a GT with GTM 1 members do that a GT with GTM3 members can't?

[IceNine]

be in the field for 3 days, Search lines, Air to ground coordination, work with a canine team, site survailance

[lordmonar]

One point to note,
  You CAN become a GTL with just GTM-3 but you are limited to only being able to lead a team that is GTM-3 Capable.

You are going to be much better off to get all 3 levels of GTM and then get your GTL, or at least make sure that you backfill those quals.


You will be much more useful if you are a GTM-1/GTL

First off there is not such thing as a "capable" ground team.

If you buy off that a ground team must have a GTL and 3-4 GTM-3s then there is NO REASON why they can't go to the field in any situation.

If I am wrong about this someone please show me in a regulation...because I can't find it.

Second....a GTL has all the requirements of a GTM-1 (with a few exceptions that were missed and should be added to the GTL training).

There is NO NEED to go through all three levels before you go to GTL.

[RiverAux]

Actually all 60-3 says is that the teams of the different levels "should be prepared" to go out in the field for different periods of time.  It doesn't restrict them to those periods.  They all have the same equipment and there isn't anything you're going to learn as a GTM2 or 1 that would prepare you to stay longer in the field.  That particular time distinction is pretty stupid and should be dropped. 

[Pace]

As someone pointed out to me not too long ago, the current GT task guide (specifically Task O-0001) doesn't require a GTM3 to possess or carry an "extended duration pack" (aka 72 hour pack).

Another point I saw somewhere on one of the posts:
A ground team is restricted to performing at the level of the lowest supervised member.  The way I read that is a team with a GTM3 who is training for GTM2 allows the team to operate at the GTM2 level assuming there are no GTM3 trainees or GTM3s who aren't training for GTM2.

GTM2 has 3 distinct areas of training:
-Setting up a shelter
-Proper map usage
-Performing a ramp check
Considering how many ramp searches CAP does, that should have been on GTM3.  Point is, a bunch of GTM3 that may not be familiar with airfields performing a ramp check without at least a briefing on the does and don'ts just sounds like some fun in the making.

GTM1 just prepares you to play with SAR dogs and become a GTL.

[flyguy06]

Well, since I dont see myself ever playing with SAR dogs or staying on a search for three days straight in the woods it probably doesnt apply

[RiverAux]

Seeing as how the number of times a CAP ground team has to camp out for multiple days on an actual SAR is about 0, there isn't really a distinction that makes a difference in equipment requirements between GT3 and the others. 

[lordmonar]

Another point I saw somewhere on one of the posts:
A ground team is restricted to performing at the level of the lowest supervised member.

Got to call the BS flag on this one!

It only takes one guy to do your maps...one guy to process clues...etc. 

[Pace]

Another point I saw somewhere on one of the posts:
A ground team is restricted to performing at the level of the lowest supervised member.

Got to call the BS flag on this one!

It only takes one guy to do your maps...one guy to process clues...etc. 

As much as I agree with you practically, it came straight from 60-3, page 14.

Here's a simple solution.  Get your entire team GTM2 certified.
Here's an even simpler solution.  Make GTM just one rating again.  GTM1 can almost entirely be eliminated since those tasks are (or could be) covered exclusively on the GTL SQTR.  The GTM2 tasks can easily be incorporated into GTM3.  Every GTM has the same level of training, the same expected capabilities, the same gear, etc.

[lordmonar]

I would break Ground teams into tree phase of training.

GTT....Ground team trainee...completed all the book learning stuff via a CBT.  Prepare your gear (both 24 hour and 72 hour).  This just gets you qualified to go to the field as a trainee....no live missions.

GTM...Do all the practical tasks....but non of the leadership tasks. (basic badge)

GTL...Do all the leadership tasks. (star)

[sardak]

Yep, we hashed out these same issues about three weeks ago, 
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3871.0
including the specific tasks that one misses by going from GTM3 direct to GTL (with a couple of attachments comparing all GT tasks by rating), performing to the lowest level, etc.

There was (sort of) a method to the madness when this ground team structure was created, but it needs to be readdressed.  But uniforms are a much more important matter at all levels of the organization.

For the new question posed in this thread:

Second question. On tasks O-0301 and task O-0302, does this require using a Direction Finder?

Based on the setup and performance measurements, I require a DF (which is more than just a receiver) for 0301, but allow just a receiver to be used for 0302.

The intent of having two tasks, instead of just "go find a distress beacon" needs to be considered.  This gets back to there being a method to the madness.

Mike

[Eclipse]

I would break Ground teams into tree phase of training.

GTT....Ground team trainee...completed all the book learning stuff via a CBT.  Prepare your gear (both 24 hour and 72 hour).  This just gets you qualified to go to the field as a trainee....no live missions.

GTM...Do all the practical tasks....but non of the leadership tasks. (basic badge)

GTL...Do all the leadership tasks. (star)

This, of course, is the old skewl way, which I think most of us preferred, but it takes longer to get a badge, so....