Mission Participation Durations

[SJFedor]

Guys-

I've scoured 60-3 and any other regulation I can get my hands on for a definition of how long an operational period needs to be for any ES qualification, under the "Mission Participation" column, but with no luck.

With an absence of a definition, is it not possible to have someone do two mission participations in 2 operational periods, but with each operational period lasting a very short time?

Thoughts on this?

[RiverAux]

Somewhere the regs define a GT sortie as 4 hours. 

[SJFedor]

Somewhere the regs define a GT sortie as 4 hours. 

Need something better then "somewhere".

Moreso, I'm looking for definitions of operational periods for mission base personnel: FLM, MRO, MSA, etc etc.

[sardak]

CAPR 39-3 defines sorties for award of the SAR ribbon, Paragraph 21(c)(2):
(a) Ground personnel performing hazardous duties such as ground rescue or ground search, may be credited with one sortie for each 4 hours of actual participation, but not to exceed three sorties in any 24-hour period.

(b) Ground personnel performing non-hazardous duties, such as base support or staff functions, may be credited with one sortie for each 8 hours of participation, but not to exceed two sorties for any 24-hour period.

However, as discussed on a recent thread, there needs to be better guidance in 60-3 as to what a duty day should be.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3816.0

Mike

[IceNine]

They don't exist.  An operational period is an arbitrary designator for a block of time that is preplanned, and then put into action.  You will be hard pressed to find an answer as to how long an ops period is, again because it is flexible

For a SAREX, the OPS period is from 0700-1700 or whatever hours you choose.

For a Electronic Search, it's a daily thing with the breakdown that a sortie  for GT's is 4 hours, MBS 8 hours, and I don't remember how long for Aircrew.  But this only pertains to the criteria for the find ribbon.

For a Missing Person/ Overdue aircraft you are probably looking at somewhere between 4 and 12 hour Ops Periods.

I hope this helps

[SJFedor]

I'm really asking more in the sense of training.

Lets say that X person is training for a mission base support qualification during a SAREX. What period of time is considered an "operational period" for the basis of considering it as a mission participation, i.e. having a line signed off by their supervisor w/ the mission number. Would it be from the morning briefing till the end of day debrief? From the morning briefing till lunchtime,  then another period after lunch till debrief?

[IceNine]

Well where I come from, our wing ESO won't (or wouldn't in the past) allow qualification without 2 different mission numbers...

And I would caution you against greasing someone through for qual in 1 day, its just bad form, unless there is some sort of exceptional qualification.

Plus, training in 2 different missions, on 2 different weekends allows time for absorption, and allows for lessons learned.

That being said there is no reason that you could not schedule 2 4-6 hour ops periods and use them both



More relevant?

[SJFedor]

Well where I come from, our wing ESO won't (or wouldn't in the past) allow qualification without 2 different mission numbers...

Your Wing ESO is in violation of 60-3, unless your wing has a supplement to it.

...These two "missions" do not have to be on different mission numbers, be Air Force assigned or approved, or be completed after advanced training. These sorties must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of their assigned mission specialty. It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a given mission or day.

There's absolutely no greasing going on, and I fully agree with and support everything else you've said.

[IceNine]

Well where I come from, our wing ESO won't (or wouldn't in the past) allow qualification without 2 different mission numbers...

Your Wing ESO is in violation of 60-3, unless your wing has a supplement to it.

Yeah, I've stopped fighting that battle, and moved on to more productive tasks

[SJFedor]

10-4 

[IceNine]

Man (Ha Ha made me look)  I just went searching for CAPR 10-4...  Stupid Public Service codes

[arajca]

Operational periods can vary not only from incident to incident but also during an incident. Some incidents I have been on have an operational periods as short as one hour and as long as 12 hours.

[LittleIronPilot]

Well where I come from, our wing ESO won't (or wouldn't in the past) allow qualification without 2 different mission numbers...

And I would caution you against greasing someone through for qual in 1 day, its just bad form, unless there is some sort of exceptional qualification.

Plus, training in 2 different missions, on 2 different weekends allows time for absorption, and allows for lessons learned.

That being said there is no reason that you could not schedule 2 4-6 hour ops periods and use them both



More relevant?

Wow...in GAWG we do NOT do it that way. If you run on two separate sorties for a mission, those are two separate sorties for qualifications. Hell a recent wing leve scanner/observer course was devised so that the two-day SAREX would allow for each participant to get a minimum of two sorties to be at least scanner qualified by the end of the course.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I disagree with the current regulation on this issue, in particular regarding ground teams.  If you live in a fairly large state most of a gt "sortie" can be taken up just driving to the mission base.  I think it is the experience involved in actual separate missions that is what we should be looking at.  If I spend 8 hours looking for 1 ELT I probably haven't learned as much as I would spending 4 hours each on 2 different ELTs. 

[Eclipse]

2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards. For each specialty rating, standards have been developed to train and qualify members in stages. The most current versions of the task guides for all specialties are found at the National HQ Operations website. Prerequisites must be completed prior to initiating training requirements. Once trainees have met the prerequisites, they will be required to complete familiarization and preparatory training for the specialty before serving in that position on actual or training missions under supervision. Familiarization and preparatory training is the minimum set of tasks that the member must master prior to acting as a supervised trainee on practice or actual missions. These tasks represent those skills that will keep the member safe and allow the member to function under supervision without jeopardizing the mission. This requirement avoids placing personnel not ready to perform certain jobs or those who work for them at risk. Once familiarization and preparatory training is completed, trainees must complete advanced training and participate satisfactorily in two missions before a CAPF 101 is approved and a member is considered "Qualified." Advanced training covers the remainder of the tasks required for specialty qualification. On actual missions, it is expected that these tasks could be accomplished by the trainee's supervisor or other fully trained members if they became critical. Because of this, trainees are allowed to learn these "on the job." These two "missions" do not have to be on different mission numbers, be Air Force assigned or approved, or be completed after advanced training. These sorties must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of their assigned mission specialty. It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a given mission or day.

Ice - this has been pointed out to the Wing ESO and is no longer an issue.

However I do tend to agree with River on this, and especially on the ground side, it is far too easy to fudge that second sortie, especially during a SAREx.  In my experience, the first one of the day tends to be the full-on preparation, ramp-up style, and the subsequent ones tend to be redeployments after lunch, etc.

In far too many cases, the second sortie is recalled because of time, etc., by the mission base before they actually >do< anything.

However the reg is clear, and absent an approved supplement, as long as the unit commander concurs that they were full sorties, K-SARA-SARA.

[SStradley]

...Snip...  For a Electronic Search, it's a daily thing with the breakdown that a sortie  for GT's is 4 hours, MBS 8 hours, and I don't remember how long for Aircrew.  But this only pertains to the criteria for the find ribbon. ...Snip/...

For an Air Crew it is Wheels up to Wheels down.  {Now if the plane has to return to the mission base before leaving the pattern because the MS forgot to pee then I dont' think it will count as a sortie.   }

[ammotrucker]

My group has alwas required 1 hour in the search grid with each sortie being 2 hours long for the air side.  We have alwas used 8 hours per for the ground side.

I know that they use the GT hours because of the 60-3 regulation but, where they came up with the air teams being 1 grid and 2 on sortie is beyond me.

[SAR-EMT1]

For USAF the " suggested" period for Aircrew used to be 6 hours (airborne) 8-12 hours total.
Dont know if that is still accurate however.

[floridacyclist]

The wierdest thing I've seen yet is counting every 1-hour shift on an airfield crew as a GT mission and anyone involved in the mission gets credit for all finds. The explanation I was given is that many of the cadets come from states where missions are limited for cadets and this is the only chance they get to get missions and finds.

The scary thing is that when they get home, folks might think they actually know something about GT.

[SAR-EMT1]

Well where I come from, our wing ESO won't (or wouldn't in the past) allow qualification without 2 different mission numbers...

Your Wing ESO is in violation of 60-3, unless your wing has a supplement to it.

Yeah, I've stopped fighting that battle, and moved on to more productive tasks

Our wing ESO also refused to acknowledge training I recieved when I attended an Iowa Wing Training Assembly. I had to redo everything in front of an ILWG member.
I politely refused and do not have the qual.