Why do we need AF Uniforms?

[cnitas]

The conclusion we are coming to is that cadets ought to be in AF uniforms, and there are good reasons for seniors to wear exclusively the corporates.  Is this an acceptable alternative to our current situation?  Is it better or worse?

I must have missed where that was the general consensus.  I have done polls on CAPTalk in the past that showed extremely strong support for AF-style uniforms among the people here. 

I never said it was a consensus.  I said it was the conclusion we were coming to based upon the responses to my questions (ignoring the off topic stuff).  I realize that there are a lot of members who would like to wear the AF uniform. Possibly the majority of our members.  Hopefully more come here and post good reasons why we should keep it.

[Hawk200]

I never said it was a consensus.  I said it was the conclusion we were coming to based upon the responses to my questions (ignoring the off topic stuff).  I realize that there are a lot of members who would like to wear the AF uniform. Possibly the majority of our members.  Hopefully more come here and post good reasons why we should keep it.

Col White told us that the Air Force has said we'll keep them. Is that good enough?

[LittleIronPilot]

I would offer this to those of the "ditch the fat and fuzzies" crowd: What will you think if you become one?  Just because you might be within height/weight now, how are you going to feel if you fall outside the standards when you're older?  I'm all for standards but my preference would be for standards that contribute to mission effectiveness. A USAF-uniform wearing guy/gal who doesn't participate is hardly worth keeping over a guy who contributes but has a beard or falls outside the height/weight standards.

Won't happen. I workout, eat right, and basically WORK at staying fit.

I am all "for the mission" but I will not fall into the trap of "the mission only, everything else, including our uniforms and standards secondary". However dumping the fat/fuzzies IS an option, to be honest. One that seems to bother you, just like losing the USAF uniform bothers a LOT of us.

Sorry..it is the total package....I, for one, would love to see PT done by Senior's as well. However I KNOW that will not happen.

[SamFranklin]

Referring to people as "fat and fuzzy" and suggesting the organization would do just fine without them shows complete disregard for the Core Value of Respect. And these statements come from those who believe they deserve to wear the uniform?

[RiverAux]

"fat and fuzzy"

If I recall correctly that term was first used here by someone who was fat and fuzzy. 

[riffraff]

Col White told us that the Air Force has said we'll keep them. Is that good enough?

Actually, no. I doubt very much the USAF told CAP we're keeping their uniforms. It probably more accurate to say that CAP has no plans to cease wearing them and USAF continues to allow it. Very big difference. If USAF told us we were wearing USAF uniforms, we'd all be in them and the whole corporate uniform debate would be a non-issue.

[Hawk200]

Col White told us that the Air Force has said we'll keep them. Is that good enough?

Actually, no. I doubt very much the USAF told CAP we're keeping their uniforms. It probably more accurate to say that CAP has no plans to cease wearing them and USAF continues to allow it. Very big difference. If USAF told us we were wearing USAF uniforms, we'd all be in them and the whole corporate uniform debate would be a non-issue.

The Air Force mandated alternate wear for those not meeting the standards to wear the blues. I doubt it was an attempt to allow dropping them entirely in the future, and going corporate. And I doubt they want us to eliminate them.

Maybe Col White can chime in and actually tell us whether or not the Air Force wants us to keep them. He probably knows.

[riffraff]

The Air Force mandated alternate wear for those not meeting the standards to wear the blues. I doubt it was an attempt to allow dropping them entirely in the future, and going corporate. And I doubt they want us to eliminate them.

I agree with nearly all of your statement.

My earlier post was theoretical and meant to explore the topic of this thread -- Why do we need AF uniforms?

With CAP exploring partnerships with more federal/state/local government agencies, combined with the relatively recent removal of all outward vestiges of association with USAF (aircraft, vehicles, command patch) is it possible that very preliminary moves are underway to internally move CAP away from USAF and into another agency such as DHS? If such a move was to happen, would we continue with USAF uniforms? A bit of drift and probably worthy of a new thread.

[Hawk200]

With CAP exploring partnerships with more federal/state/local government agencies, combined with the relatively recent removal of all outward vestiges of association with USAF (aircraft, vehicles, command patch) is it possible that very preliminary moves are underway to internally move CAP away from USAF and into another agency such as DHS?

I think that would be a sad thing. I wouldn't want to work for DHS, and if CAP moved under them there would be a very radical change for the organization. Our Cadet Program and Aerospace Ed missions would go away. DHS needs neither.

IF such a move did occur, then I imagine AF uniforms would fall too. Their would be no place for them.

All in all, I think there is a major problem with people joining an organization, but not wanting to have the appearance of it. That's what this all boils down too. People want all the benefits, but don't want to look like the Air Force. We are an Air Force organization. I think that people that want no part of that relationship don't belong in it.

[mikeylikey]

We are an Air Force organization. I think that people that want no part of that relationship don't belong in it.

We are absolutely NOT an Air Force Organization.  We are crazy to think any differently.  We are an instrument of the Federal Govt on Air Force Assigned Missions Only.  The only part of CAP that is a part of the Air Force is that building were the CAP-USAF commander sits.  Heck, the State Directors are not even part of the AF.  They are GS guys and ladies.

We once in the past could have considered our organization as part of the AF, but since the wordings of the laws were changed, we no longer can say that.

Even though the Cadets get uniforms, they are not part of the AF either. 

Show me where it says the Non-Profit CAP corporation is part of the AF.  We have never been included as part of the "total AF team".

Getting money from them is one thing, getting recognition as a part of their set-up and organization is another. 

[riffraff]

I think that would be a sad thing. I wouldn't want to work for DHS, and if CAP moved under them there would be a very radical change for the organization. Our Cadet Program and Aerospace Ed missions would go away. DHS needs neither.

IF such a move did occur, then I imagine AF uniforms would fall too. Their would be no place for them.

All in all, I think there is a major problem with people joining an organization, but not wanting to have the appearance of it. That's what this all boils down too. People want all the benefits, but don't want to look like the Air Force. We are an Air Force organization. I think that people that want no part of that relationship don't belong in it.

Again, I wouldn't disagree with you on most of your points. However I would disagree on your premise that nobody wants to look like the AF. I think people do. But the quandry is how to do it so that everyone wears does? The real issue is whether people would opt for uniformity via a corporate uniform that's all-inclusive or stick with the USAF uniforms for those who can wear them and maintain the status quo.

As to my theory on a move away from USAF. It's exactly that -- a theory. However, CAP has changed agencies in the past and has survived just fine. We started as part of Civil Defense -- nothing really to do with the military other than a military style organizational model. We then moved to the US Army and again to the USAF. Granted we've been under USAF for the majority of our existence. I'll start this as a new topic since it's drifted considerably.

[Eclipse]

((*))

[LittleIronPilot]

Referring to people as "fat and fuzzy" and suggesting the organization would do just fine without them shows complete disregard for the Core Value of Respect. And these statements come from those who believe they deserve to wear the uniform?

Of course my statements were provocative. So I ask in return, where is the respect for the uniform and the standards to wear it?

This is not the Glee Club and I, for one, am tired of todays thinking of making everyone feel good, everyone gets a trophy, standards do not matter.

Look....I have no issue with those who are overweight or choose to wear a beard, as a matter of fact I have met many in CAP that are great assets to our organization. Not ONE of them has expressed anger at not wearing the AF-style uniform. As a matter of fact many have gone on diets so they can, they see it as an honor to wear it to the standards it demands.

I am just tired of hearing those who cannot meet the standard whine and then toss out the uniform as a result. Respect ME and my ability to wear it and I will respect those that cannot. Start trying to yank it away because someone else cannot meet the standard and my dander gets all in a duff!

Tag spacing - MIKE

[ZigZag911]

Of course my statements were provocative. So I ask in return, where is the respect for the uniform and the standards to wear it?

Respect ME and my ability to wear it and I will respect those that cannot.

Respect for the uniform is certainly important.

However, respect for people is even more important!

And maintaining respect for the individual who disagrees with you, even while utterly rejecting that person's opinion, is perhaps the most important thing of all!

[Hawk200]

I am just tired of hearing those who cannot meet the standard whine and then toss out the uniform as a result. Respect ME and my ability to wear it and I will respect those that cannot. Start trying to yank it away because someone else cannot meet the standard and my dander gets all in a duff!

I hadn't figured out how to say that, but then again it doesn't matter. Someone finally did.

Respect for the uniform is certainly important.

However, respect for people is even more important!

And maintaining respect for the individual who disagrees with you, even while utterly rejecting that person's opinion, is perhaps the most important thing of all!

A lot of people say this, but they don't live it. It's OK if they disagree with you, then you need to respect their opinion. If you disagree with them, then it doesn't seem to work both ways.

This little dispute is getting rather obvious lately when it comes to corporates vs blues.

If you wear corporates or advocate them, you're a golden child (even if you're completely worthless).

If you wear or advocate Air Force uniforms, you're only here for bling, attention, some type of personal gain, glory, sensationalism, or some other egotistical reason. And because you're in something that isn't civilian flavored, you're not entitled to respect.

Who's gonna be the first to post here and tell me "Oh, that's preposterous!It's not like that!" ?

I would love to see one person here that wants to eliminate the Air Force uniforms have the guts to explain why they don't like them. If you want to eliminate them, explain your reasons for the dislike. And the BS phrase of  "It's all for uniformity! We'd all look the same!" doesn't cut it. Pass a gutcheck.

[Hawk200]

We are an Air Force organization. I think that people that want no part of that relationship don't belong in it.

We are absolutely NOT an Air Force Organization.  We are crazy to think any differently.  We are an instrument of the Federal Govt on Air Force Assigned Missions Only.  The only part of CAP that is a part of the Air Force is that building were the CAP-USAF commander sits.  Heck, the State Directors are not even part of the AF.  They are GS guys and ladies.

We once in the past could have considered our organization as part of the AF, but since the wordings of the laws were changed, we no longer can say that.

Even though the Cadets get uniforms, they are not part of the AF either. 

Show me where it says the Non-Profit CAP corporation is part of the AF.  We have never been included as part of the "total AF team".

Getting money from them is one thing, getting recognition as a part of their set-up and organization is another. 

Amazing how many times this comes up when people want to lose the Air Force in general. You want to get rid of AF uniforms, too, don't you?

We've got a corporate side of the house so that we can get paid for operations for other agencies. It's easy and convenient, and doesn't conflict with Posse Commitatus. Can you think of any other legimate reason for a corporate side?

[mikeylikey]

We are an Air Force organization. I think that people that want no part of that relationship don't belong in it.

We are absolutely NOT an Air Force Organization.  We are crazy to think any differently.  We are an instrument of the Federal Govt on Air Force Assigned Missions Only.  The only part of CAP that is a part of the Air Force is that building were the CAP-USAF commander sits.  Heck, the State Directors are not even part of the AF.  They are GS guys and ladies.

We once in the past could have considered our organization as part of the AF, but since the wordings of the laws were changed, we no longer can say that.

Even though the Cadets get uniforms, they are not part of the AF either. 

Show me where it says the Non-Profit CAP corporation is part of the AF.  We have never been included as part of the "total AF team".

Getting money from them is one thing, getting recognition as a part of their set-up and organization is another. 

Amazing how many times this comes up when people want to lose the Air Force in general. You want to get rid of AF uniforms, too, don't you?

We've got a corporate side of the house so that we can get paid for operations for other agencies. It's easy and convenient, and doesn't conflict with Posse Commitatus. Can you think of any other legimate reason for a corporate side?

Complete opposite actually.  I want to be closer with the AF.  I want them to allow the AF-style uniform for all members as well. 

If you read back through the past of CAP, you will see the AF controlled the organization SO MUCH MORE.  (the National Commander was an AF Officer, the AF was in direct control of all money....etc.  It is the past 20 years that CAP Corporate has taken over.

[ddelaney103]

I am just tired of hearing those who cannot meet the standard whine and then toss out the uniform as a result. Respect ME and my ability to wear it and I will respect those that cannot. Start trying to yank it away because someone else cannot meet the standard and my dander gets all in a duff!

I hadn't figured out how to say that, but then again it doesn't matter. Someone finally did.

Respect for the uniform is certainly important.

However, respect for people is even more important!

And maintaining respect for the individual who disagrees with you, even while utterly rejecting that person's opinion, is perhaps the most important thing of all!

A lot of people say this, but they don't live it. It's OK if they disagree with you, then you need to respect their opinion. If you disagree with them, then it doesn't seem to work both ways.

This little dispute is getting rather obvious lately when it comes to corporates vs blues.

If you wear corporates or advocate them, you're a golden child (even if you're completely worthless).

If you wear or advocate Air Force uniforms, you're only here for bling, attention, some type of personal gain, glory, sensationalism, or some other egotistical reason. And because you're in something that isn't civilian flavored, you're not entitled to respect.

Who's gonna be the first to post here and tell me "Oh, that's preposterous!It's not like that!" ?

I would love to see one person here that wants to eliminate the Air Force uniforms have the guts to explain why they don't like them. If you want to eliminate them, explain your reasons for the dislike. And the BS phrase of  "It's all for uniformity! We'd all look the same!" doesn't cut it. Pass a gutcheck.

Oh, that's preposterous!  It's not like that!

(Do I win a prize?)

So, anyway...

I have no problem wearing AF uniforms.  I'm an ANG E-8 and have been wearing them for over 16 years.  I've racked up some decent bling and, while I'm not AFSOC, can be considered to have been there and done that.

However, the mission of CAP is better served by units who are uniform.  My successor as sqdn cc (an AD Army type currently on the O-6 list) wanted his new unit to be more operationally minded.  He also wanted to build up pride in the unit as a sqdn that was out there doing the job.  Therefore, he decided that the standard uniform for meetings and operations would be either the BBDU or the blue jumpsuit.

This served two purposes.  First, everyone was dressed in the same shade and everyone could display the sqdn patch.  The patch was a distinctive cartoon style patch (I had it designed while sqdn cc).  When we showed up, all looking alike and sporting the same "winged turtle with a Lewis Gun" patch, we made an impression on the Wing.

It may not be the sole reason, but I think that bit of esprit de corps help us rack up a record as the "go to sqdn" for ES in the Wing.  I think that urge to get out of a warm bed and chase down an "0-dark-thirty" ELT might have been a little weaker if we had two sets of membership based on weight.

Would I rather wear AF?  Sure - I've got a lot of it around.  But that's the AF's call - and they said "no."  The AF doesn't care what whether we wear CAP or AF, according to the Statement of Work - which is the document which defines what the AF wants of us.

Since that's off the table, the alternative is going corporate.  We are CAP and our choice of uniform should be based on adding to the mission and looking uniform helps the unit spirit, which helps the mission.

I'm sorry you think my beliefs are BS, but the only gutcheck I'm planning on passing tonight involves the chili mac I had for dinner.

[Dragoon]

As an Army guy, I've seen the value of uniforms a lot.  Used correctly, they build team unity and morale.  Used incorrectly, they foster a "look at me" attitude, or divide folks unneccesarily.

CAP could benefit a lot from adopting a single uniform. Screw the "but I wanna look like a warrior" stuff - it simply doesn't matter.

We need to wear whatever uniform will have the maximum benefit to the corporation.  I personally believe that would be done by getting everyone into the same uniform.  One single, unifying look.  Make us all part of a single team, instead of a bunch of statements of individuality.

And if USAF won't let us all wear USAF suits, the best answer is to put us all in something else.   Those who would quit over that are, quite frankly, a little too concerned with their own image, instead of CAP's image.

A large number of USAF personnel don't wear ABUs or Service Dress. Thousands and thousands of USAF civilians, fer example (and truthfully, that's what we really are - volunteer USAF civilians - and that's something to be proud of.)

[ddelaney103]

One important provision:

All of my opinions are directed at SM uniforms.  Cadets all wear the same suit now and I see no good reason to change it.

The one exception our sqdn had to the BBDU/jumpsuit rule was SM's working with Cadets at Cadet events.  Not that this was really needed - most people understand cadre wearing a different uniform from Cadets.  But, again, there is an advantage in everyone in the same suit.