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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Verbal Order
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BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,987

« on: July 17, 2005, 06:44:13 AM »

When a Commander (Squadron or Group) gives a verbal order, how long is it valid for? Answers seem to be 30 days unless put in writing. Until the Commander is relieved/replaced. or permenant. Anyone have any ideas or what regulations cover this?
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
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Posts: 716

« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 07:01:47 AM »

My unofficial answer would be on the spot orders only.  Anything longer than that, and there had better be something in black and white or it doesn't exist.  Mind you, I'm thinking of more serious orders.
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2005, 10:48:56 AM »

When a Commander (Squadron or Group) gives a verbal order, how long is it valid for? Answers seem to be 30 days unless put in writing. Until the Commander is relieved/replaced. or permenant. Anyone have any ideas or what regulations cover this?

I don't think you'll ever find where it is written in stone how long a 'verbal' order stands, however if the 'order' is a matter of unit policy it needs to be posted in writing where all members of the unit can see it.  A courtesy information copy should be sent to the Wing Admin/Personnel Officer as well.

Remember that no subordinate unit can make/write a policy that trumps wing/region/or national policies or regulations. 

CC
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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
Greg
Forum Regular

Posts: 133

« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2005, 01:08:02 PM »

When a Commander (Squadron or Group) gives a verbal order, how long is it valid for? Answers seem to be 30 days unless put in writing. Until the Commander is relieved/replaced. or permenant. Anyone have any ideas or what regulations cover this?

Could you provide an example of this kind of situation?
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron
BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,987

« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2005, 07:06:35 AM »

OK Lets see about an example of a verbal order.  Lets say a Group Commander tells a member of a Composite Squadron that he or she can't take part in cadet activities or have contact with cadets. Also assume that the senior member has completed level 1 and CPPT. In this case how long would the verbal order be valid, or is it even valid to sdtart with since the member completed CPPT?
Or another example, if a Commander (at any level other than Wing Commander) told a member they couldn't take part in flight operations (also assuming no physical diabilities prevent the member taking part). Granted therse are "far out" examples, but are used only to have examples of what the verbal order may be.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2005, 11:21:54 AM »

Both situations seem like they are disciplinary against one individual and would probably be binding on that person until recinded.  Using your examples the Group Commander should have documented the order and advised the Wing Commander.

Not knowing the details of the verbal order you are speaking of it is hard to give you a good answer.
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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
shorning
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 973

« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2005, 05:22:03 AM »

I know you've already received input from others, but here are my thoughts.  How verbal orders apply depends on the circumstances. 

As far as I know, no policy or regulation covers verbal orders.  In the military, verbal orders are issued based on the authority of those giving them.  By way of explanation, officers issue orders by virtue of their commission, warrant officers by their warrant, and NCOs/Petty Officers by being appointed to a position of authority by their commander (okay, that's extremely oversimplified, but you get the idea).  Similarly, orders in CAP are based on the authority of those that issue them.  It's a little touchier because our members are volunteers, and they'll play that card given a chance.  Members have to voluntarily submit themselves to CAP's command.

There is no timeframe for verbal orders.  As others have mentioned, they are effective until rescinded or superseded by other orders.  However, verbal orders aren't intended to be policy statements or discipline actions.  Yes, the can provide for those for a "short" term, yet, if it's something that needs to be effective for a long term, then it should be documented in another form.

In the Air Force, I can verbally order someone to not do something (i.e. "Amn Snuffy, you are not to have any contact with Amn Bagofdonuts").  If it were taken to the JAG for some reason, there is nothing documented to prove the order was ever given.  For example, in disciplinary actions, I can verbally order an airman to comply with standards, but if it develops into a bigger issue, I'm going to need documentation for the legal folks.  It's the "paperwork trail" that will show a history or pattern.  Similarly, my commander may issue new policy verbally to the squadron during a commander's call.  Shortly afterwards, that new policy should be published in a policy letter. 

In the examples you provided (prohibition from participating in flying operations or the cadet program), verbal orders would be a appropriate short-term fix for the problems.  The both are situation where solid documentation really is needed in the event it becomes a legal issue.  Not to mention simply to document the situation itself.  What if it is a problem in the unit and the commander moves on?  Is it okay to let someone who has been restricted from flying or participating in the cadet program to do those things if the problem still exists?  How does the new commander know unless there is documentation?  By documenting it, you can make sure it's a matter of record.  Additionally, if the issue is resolved at a later date, the order should be rescinded or amended (as appropriate).

This is an over simplified explanation, but there really isn't a simple answer to your question and no answer can cover every situation.  As it said, it can vary greatly depending on the situation.
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Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2005, 04:17:34 PM »

Airman Bagofdonuts....I think I served with him once.  :)
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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,987

« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2005, 08:41:01 PM »

QAirman Bagofdonuts....Didn't he have a glazed look about him
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2005, 09:42:23 PM »

If I remember, Airman Bagofdonuts was SWEET on a coworker of his, Airman First Class Jel E. Bean.

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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
shorning
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 973

« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2005, 11:59:49 PM »

Yeah, yeah, yeah...and he had quite a sweet tooth too...


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abysmal
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 520

« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2005, 08:09:46 PM »

<Airman Bagofdonuts....I think I served with him once
<QAirman Bagofdonuts....Didn't he have a glazed look about him
<If I remember, Airman Bagofdonuts was SWEET on a coworker of his, Airman First Class Jel E. Bean.
<he had quite a sweet tooth too

GROAN...How do you guys sleep at night... ;)

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2LT Christopher M. Parrett
Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2005, 11:15:14 PM »

A bit of a cream puff too.  : )

Yeah, yeah, yeah...and he had quite a sweet tooth too...



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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2005, 11:15:53 PM »

<Airman Bagofdonuts....I think I served with him once
<QAirman Bagofdonuts....Didn't he have a glazed look about him
<If I remember, Airman Bagofdonuts was SWEET on a coworker of his, Airman First Class Jel E. Bean.
<he had quite a sweet tooth too

GROAN...How do you guys sleep at night... ;)

Are you saying not to quit our day jobs?  :)

Chuck


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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
abysmal
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 520

« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2005, 11:25:30 AM »

Are you saying not to quit our day jobs?  :)

Chuck

I think it might be time to walk into the boss' office and THANK him for keeping you on inspite of yourself!!
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2LT Christopher M. Parrett
Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Verbal Order
 


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