Safety Vests

[isuhawkeye]

After several uniform discussions several members have expressed concern over the safety of our ground teams.  the images to follow have been taken from a presentation I use to train fire and EMS crews on road side safety.  Enjoy. 


















I hope this has been usefull

[Dragoon]

Good brief.  Based on this, it seems the different levels are primarily used to make yourself visible to cars.  Since CAP adopted vests not to provide roadside visibility, but rather to provide field visibility, seems like Class Is would be fine.

[O-Rex]

Class II if you are marshalling aircraft.

Vanguard actually sells a CAP logo vest specifically for flightline personnel: don't know if it meets these specs.

[Avery]

I just took delivery of two Vanguard CAP safety vests, they look to be Class II. We use them on the flight line, so I think we're OK.

[SDF_Specialist]

This would be a good ES/Safety briefing. Awesome presentation.

[MIKE]

ORANGE reflective is a key word as far as vests for CAP use.

[Steve Silverwood]

After several uniform discussions several members have expressed concern over the safety of our ground teams.  the images to follow have been taken from a presentation I use to train fire and EMS crews on road side safety.  Enjoy. 

Excellent presentation!  :clap:

ORANGE reflective is a key word as far as vests for CAP use.

If that's mandated by the regs, then they might want to reconsider.  That new neon-lime-green-whatever color they're using in school zones these days is strikingly visible.  Grabs my attention a lot quicker than the orange color ever did.

Funny story, only very vaguely related: when I got my orders back to Alaska in 1977, I got a new car before going.  (Alaskan winters can be rough on a car, and I wanted something very reliable.)  My grandmother was so worried that I'd be lost forever in a blizzard or something, so she was absolutely serious about wanting me to get a car painted international distress orange!! 

[pixelwonk]

ORANGE reflective is a key word as far as vests for CAP use.

that's two words.

* tedda ducks

[MIKE]

ORANGEREFLECTIVE 

[Dragoon]

Class II if you are marshalling aircraft.

Vanguard actually sells a CAP logo vest specifically for flightline personnel: don't know if it meets these specs.

Is class II a CAP requirement for flight line, or a recommendation?

[O-Rex]

Class II if you are marshalling aircraft.

Vanguard actually sells a CAP logo vest specifically for flightline personnel: don't know if it meets these specs.

Is class II a CAP requirement for flight line, or a recommendation?

Dunno: I just got schooled on the topic reading this, like all of you...

I saw two reflective vests on Vanguard, the standard orange one that they sold for years, and a new green one, for flightline marshalling.

Mike, thanks for the orange font, I now get an after-image when I stare at a blank wall: will probably have to change my eyeglass prescription

Anyway, at $30, the vests are not cheap (at Vanguard, what is?) but they do have the nifty CAP graphics, and I've seen them up-close: they are pretty heavy-duty.

[PHall]

We had some new road guard vests at Encampment this year.
They were yellow with white reflective strips and flashing red lights (light emitting diodes).
They had Civil Air Patrol printed on them and I am told they came from Vanguard at about $40 each.

If they can't see you when you're wearing this vest, they have no business driving!

[Eclipse]

I agree 100% that retro-reflective, whatever the color, is the way to go.

The "CAP" stenciled vest is very nice, but unfortunately made of a very stiff material, and although it is fairly adjustable I could never get it to sit right.

In a previous vest thread, I noted (IMHO), that the orange SAR-MED type vest, readily available on eBay and other sources, are your best best for most CAP functions: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1071.0

The above thread has similar photographs from the ground and air which show why high-vis is important.

As noted there, my Tactical vest has lights!  http://group22.net/files/other/vest/vest.wmv
BTW - the tapes now say "U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL". 

[0]

As a safety guy, my feeling is wear what makes you most visible. 

[alamrcn]

I am a little glad that 39-1 doesn't mandate the reflective vests. The only reason  being that they are not as easy to obtain as your typical "hunter" blaze orange style. Althought I don't have one because they are not allowed, I would prefer to wear the bright yellow with silver relective stripes. Some members do wear these, and as far as I know they go unchallanged. Pick your battles I guess, who wants to tell someone they are too safe?!

My real reason for posting is do any of these materials hold up better than another with BURS? You know, those little balls you collect like Pokemon after an intensive line search through the woods.

The first vests that the Bookstore sold were molded plastic mesh. Although they folded up like hell in your pack, they were pretty resistant against nature's little hitch hikers. I guess most safety vests aren't really made with our use in mind.

- Ace

[Eclipse]

I have them with me in both colors, as you said pick the battles and go with safety, though my "main" vests are orange.

The current version is a thickly-molded plastic which stands up well to just about anything, versus the cheaper cloth vented vests which tend to get torn apart with regular wooded use.

[floridacyclist]

I'm not sure where reflectieve is not mandated, I've always seen the word reflective used with safety vet, maybe that's just in the gear list in the GT/UDF curriculum.

Either way, reg or not, it's common sense. Orange is nowhere nearly as visible as white at night, so people thinking they're being safe are lulled into a false sense of security as in the dark, their orange vest isn't much more visible than their BDUs.

We get our vests from a local industrial safety supply store. They're orange with lime-green reflective stripes and highlights, lightweight and soft enough to be comfortable plus fits into a grenade pocket on one of my ammo pouches. They run about $14.00...I would think yo could get them from places like Gall's as well.

[MIKE]

The GT and UDF task book sez Orange Reflective.

[floridacyclist]

And I see in 39-1 where it refers to "A safety vest must be worn when participating in Ground Team activities"  and then later on under "Wear instruction/materials" it states that "Orange plastic, mesh, or cloth. Will be worn when participating in ground team activities."

Another one of those discussions from the ES thread over what takes precedence...the reg or the training guide....or common sense

To me, the most common sense approach would be to replace "orange" with flourescent or even ANSI/OSHA-approved (not sure which one would govern that, but you get the idea) and require reflectiveness across the board in order to avoid confusion.

"flourescent, contrasting with predominant local foliage colors, plastic, mesh, or cloth with reflective trim. Will be worn when participating in ground team activities."

Maybe we should suggest that as a reg change...they do happen even from the bottom up, last year we got black t-shirts authorized for wear with BBDUs since white looked so goofy.

[0]

The GT and UDF task book sez Orange Reflective.

Mike as has already been stated Orange Reflective doesn't always show up.  The newer stuff is much safer, remember those reqs were written before the new stuff came out.  Also remember that SAFETY is our top priority and if we were something that is to keep us safe in some way shape or form that is ok.

[MIKE]

Fail the task if you want.

[Al Sayre]

Here's an idea...

From CAP.GOV Safety:

Operation CAPSAFE is the Safety Department's tool for receiving safety input from the CAP membership nation-wide.  The program is intended to solicit safety suggestions for both air and ground operations.  Every member, senior or cadet, is encouraged to submit tips and suggestions.  Each month, the best suggestions in each category (air ops, ground ops) will receive a promotional item.  Start thinking about Safety tips and suggestions you may have that will enhance the safety of CAP operations and activities.



Send your suggestions to us by   e-mail at: capsafe@cap.gov, or by surface mail to:



NHQ CAP/SE

105 South Hansell Street

Maxwell AFB, AL  36112-6332

Recommend they add it to 60-3

[Trouble]

The GT and UDF task book sez Orange Reflective.

Mike as has already been stated Orange Reflective doesn't always show up.  The newer stuff is much safer, remember those reqs were written before the new stuff came out.  Also remember that SAFETY is our top priority and if we were something that is to keep us safe in some way shape or form that is ok.

Now this might mean I have a color perception issue that has never been diagnosed but I have found that the Orange is as visible if not more so when in the woods. 

Most ANSI standards are based on roadside tests and other urbanized environments, and we do do a lot of Road side work, but when it comes to being between the trees I still like HI-viz Orange over Hi-viz yellow. I have seen both on the same team at the same time and have had more difficulty tracking the Lime-Yellow than the Orange through the woods.

But I would agree that the color should either be based on ANSI/OSHA worker safety standards or on what florescent color with reflective trim contrasts the best with the given environment.

Fore example, many Urban SAR teams use Hi-viz Yellow, while many Woodland SAR teams use Hi-viz Orange, with Red being a traditional  color as well. Blue is also a favorite, though test data has shown that Blue is a poor color choice if you want to be seen.  At least in the absence of any testing data, I would tend to say there may be a practical reason for this difference in color preference.

Personal I would propose that CAP Adopt a single look for its ES Field Teams. 

First, the BBDU instead of the BDU, the BBDU presents a look closer to our assigned tasking when looking at other Federal, State Agencies and Civilian teams but retains a martial uniform appearance befitting our USAF Aux. status. 

Second, I would set up a purchase discount program with a few equipment suppliers to allow members to acquire ES gear at a reasonable cost.

Third, I would standardize your Personal Carrying Equipment across CAP on a few different options.

1) a Mesh body Hi-viz SAR-MED Type Vest with day pack or Hydration system in matching Color.

2) SAR/Woodland Fire Fighter Webgear.

3) Day pack with Hi-viz vest and Radio chest harness for GTLs

4)  Tactical Medic vests in a bright color with Hi-viz reflective tape and material added, CAP could contract with Blackhawk or Eagle industries for example to have a CAP specific Vest produced at a reasonable cost if it was to be ordered in quantity. This would have to become the mandated requirement across the organization but that would not be any different than many other organizations that do the same thing.

[sardak]

This post
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2442.msg44013#msg44013
references several studies regarding high-vis clothing and visibility, including the reactions of color blind people. 

Most reports are in reference to highway workers, but there was one study on flagging colors in the woods conducted by the US Forest Service.  Here is the summary:

Our field evaluations indicated that hot-pink flagging was the easiest color to see and was visible at the greatest distance. Lime-green flagging showed up poorly to participants with normal color vision, but colorblind participants saw the lime-green flagging best. The other colors most visible to participants with normal color vision were oranges, blues, and candy striped, in that order.

And as someone mentioned, at night, orange looks dark, while yellow or other "light" colors remain more visible.

As an example only (not a commercial endorsement) here is a vendor which sells only high-vis clothing, at reasonable prices, and prints logos on them.
High-vis vests

Mike

[Dragoon]

The GT and UDF task book sez Orange Reflective.

Mike as has already been stated Orange Reflective doesn't always show up.  The newer stuff is much safer, remember those reqs were written before the new stuff came out.  Also remember that SAFETY is our top priority and if we were something that is to keep us safe in some way shape or form that is ok.

Now this might mean I have a color perception issue that has never been diagnosed but I have found that the Orange is as visible if not more so when in the woods. 

Most ANSI standards are based on roadside tests and other urbanized environments, and we do do a lot of Road side work, but when it comes to being between the trees I still like HI-viz Orange over Hi-viz yellow. I have seen both on the same team at the same time and have had more difficulty tracking the Lime-Yellow than the Orange through the woods.

But I would agree that the color should either be based on ANSI/OSHA worker safety standards or on what florescent color with reflective trim contrasts the best with the given environment.

Fore example, many Urban SAR teams use Hi-viz Yellow, while many Woodland SAR teams use Hi-viz Orange, with Red being a traditional  color as well. Blue is also a favorite, though test data has shown that Blue is a poor color choice if you want to be seen.  At least in the absence of any testing data, I would tend to say there may be a practical reason for this difference in color preference.

Personal I would propose that CAP Adopt a single look for its ES Field Teams. 

First, the BBDU instead of the BDU, the BBDU presents a look closer to our assigned tasking when looking at other Federal, State Agencies and Civilian teams but retains a martial uniform appearance befitting our USAF Aux. status. 

Second, I would set up a purchase discount program with a few equipment suppliers to allow members to acquire ES gear at a reasonable cost.

Third, I would standardize your Personal Carrying Equipment across CAP on a few different options.

1) a Mesh body Hi-viz SAR-MED Type Vest with day pack or Hydration system in matching Color.

2) SAR/Woodland Fire Fighter Webgear.

3) Day pack with Hi-viz vest and Radio chest harness for GTLs

4)  Tactical Medic vests in a bright color with Hi-viz reflective tape and material added, CAP could contract with Blackhawk or Eagle industries for example to have a CAP specific Vest produced at a reasonable cost if it was to be ordered in quantity. This would have to become the mandated requirement across the organization but that would not be any different than many other organizations that do the same thing.

I sincerely doubt CAP would adopt these requirments due to individual member cost.  Yeah, I know about bulk discounts.  But the NB is gonna look out for the little guy, the 13 year old cadet who wants to do GT but doesn't have much money.  Seen it before.

As a fallback just mandating a specific hat and/or vest would go a long way.