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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: "Raising Standards" for CAP officer grade - would you take a demotion?
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SAR-EMT1
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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2007, 05:16:44 AM »

Well, in a convoulted way it does make sense. You werent in a Command position so you had no need for oak leaves.

However... one could say that as you are Wing Staff, (Webmaster) that you might just rate railroad tracks.

Ive technically got Level II done, but Id feel kinda odd being a twenty two year old Captain. As it is I intend to stay a 1st Lt. until Im twenty four or twenty six. (My unit /CC has stated that the moment I accept the COP hes giving me railroad tracks)

I guess the other reason I do it this way is to pace myself. Sure, I could be a Lt. Col by the time Im 30, but then what would I do for the other 30-40 years of my CAP membership?

The only thing Im sure of is this. I will, one day, be a Wing Commander.
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C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
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Grumpy
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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2007, 04:05:59 PM »

"The only thing Im sure of is this. I will, one day, be a Wing Commander. "

That's cool.  You into being a politician?
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RiverAux
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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2007, 04:21:19 PM »

I guess I'm just not understanding it either.  If you've done the things required by CAP to have the rank, there is nothing illegitimate in accepting it or wearing it.  If you're in the group that believes that all CAP rank is illegitimate you're being just as much of a hypocrite if you're wearing 2nd Lt bars as if you were wearing Lt. Col.  The only "honest" rank for them is senior member without grade and the only "honest" uniform would be the golf shirt and/or the blazer. 
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MIKE
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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2007, 04:33:55 PM »

A Lt Col with 2d Lt level responsibilities is kind of dumb though... and he or she still has to take orders from his or her 1st Lt or Capt unit CC.
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Mike Johnston
SoCalCAPOfficer
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2007, 04:38:41 PM »

The only legitimate reason I could see for a person demoting themselves is if they are the Squadron, Group, Wing or National Commander and they know they have done something that deserves a demotion.   In that case demoting yourself as you would any other member shows that you are a fair leader.  However, for the life of me I cant see any other reason as legitimate for demoting ones self.   I also do not understand the hang up some people have about rank in general.  Are they ashamed that they look like military wannabes?
If so they should work for an organization that is not paramilitary.
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Daniel L. Hough, Maj, CAP
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pixelwonk
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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2007, 04:50:02 PM »

I guess I'm just not understanding it either.  If you've done the things required by CAP to have the rank, there is nothing illegitimate in accepting it or wearing it.  If you're in the group that believes that all CAP rank is illegitimate you're being just as much of a hypocrite if you're wearing 2nd Lt bars as if you were wearing Lt. Col.  The only "honest" rank for them is senior member without grade and the only "honest" uniform would be the golf shirt and/or the blazer. 

That comment seemed a little barbed... or am I misunderstanding your tone?

Where did I claim that grade was illegitimate?  Those were your words, not mine.
I said to me, it doesn't mean much.  I believe there is a concrete difference there.

I stand behind the concept that grade be tied closer to position.  I'd expect that as an Auxie, you'd understand that better than most.

SoCalCAPOfficer, The legitimacy you speak of is more like opinion.  Are you implying that because I posted my opinion in this thread that I'm hung up on grade?  You surely can't mean that, for you'd be lumping yourself in the same category.
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Grumpy
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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2007, 05:01:52 PM »

Tedda, I can certainly agree with your comment, "I stand behind the concept that grade be tied closer to position.".

When I retired from the AF (Reserve) and came back into CAP, it blew my mind (what little there is of it) that you would have a 1st Lt or Capt as a squadron commander and a Major or Lt Col as his deputy.


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RiverAux
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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2007, 06:19:22 PM »

tedda, I wasn't talking about you in particular, but about the concept of self-initiated demotions in general.
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SoCalCAPOfficer
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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2007, 10:40:48 PM »

What I was trying to convey, is I do not understand why people do not like the idea of CAP using military officer rank.   I see it on these posts all the time.  People want to change to NCO or Flight Officer, or no rank at all.   I just don't get it.  I understand that rank should probably be more in line with the position held, but beyond that what is the problem?
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Daniel L. Hough, Maj, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2007, 12:38:26 AM »

What I was trying to convey, is I do not understand why people do not like the idea of CAP using military officer rank.   I see it on these posts all the time.  People want to change to NCO or Flight Officer, or no rank at all.   I just don't get it.  I understand that rank should probably be more in line with the position held, but beyond that what is the problem?

Too much time...too much bandwidth...MySpace updated...lonelygirl15 doesn't post anymore...
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Grumpy
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« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2007, 12:43:26 AM »

 ;D
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Dragoon
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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2007, 05:51:32 PM »

What I was trying to convey, is I do not understand why people do not like the idea of CAP using military officer rank.   I see it on these posts all the time.  People want to change to NCO or Flight Officer, or no rank at all.   I just don't get it.  I understand that rank should probably be more in line with the position held, but beyond that what is the problem?

It's not simply that some folks don't like CAP using military officer rank.  It's just that some folks don't like CAP bastardizing it the way it does today.

Rank is designed to imply authority and responsibility.  In CAP it does neither.

CAP uses it basically as a professional development award, which is what ribbons are for.



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ddelaney103
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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2007, 06:47:11 PM »

What I was trying to convey, is I do not understand why people do not like the idea of CAP using military officer rank.   I see it on these posts all the time.  People want to change to NCO or Flight Officer, or no rank at all.   I just don't get it.  I understand that rank should probably be more in line with the position held, but beyond that what is the problem?

It's not simply that some folks don't like CAP using military officer rank.  It's just that some folks don't like CAP bastardizing it the way it does today.

Rank is designed to imply authority and responsibility.  In CAP it does neither.

CAP uses it basically as a professional development award, which is what ribbons are for.

Since we do have ribbons, and uniforms (almost) anyone can wear that can display them, grade as a measure of PD is redundant, not to mention confusing to those not read into the "grade as merit badge" philosophy.

If I find a job (Asst Ext AE Officer, for example) and stay in it for 10 years while hitting the required classes, I'll end up a Lt Col.  If I spend all my time working on MP and IC ratings and neglect CLC, I'll never promote.  Is this best for CAP?

One IC started promoting because the target's family took a Captain IC taking over from a Lt Col IC as a sign CAP has give up on the search.

Besides the "wannabe" factor, is there any reason to keep grade?  Does it further the mission beside the recruiting draw?  There's no operational use for it.
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ddelaney103
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« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2007, 06:58:57 PM »

There have been many suggested plans to "raise the standards" for CAP Officer grade.

I don't plan to rehash the plans here, but I do want to put forward a question:

Have you presented or supported a plan that would result in you losing grade if that plan was adopted?  Would you make CAP officers into a club so exclusive that it wouldn't have you as a member?

My answer to this is yes and no.

I have developed (and presented it to my Wing King) a plan to move most officers not holding leadership or certain higher staff positions from commissioned to FO/WO grade.  While I would give up my leaves, my relative place in the CAP pecking order wouldn't change - my grade would simply reflect my lack of major position.  So I'd lose the grade but not the status.

Anyone else?
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2007, 07:05:53 PM »

nah, just grandfather those of us who have it already and make the new guys start the program... >:D
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
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« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2007, 07:07:13 PM »

I see where you're going. Each position is important in CAP in its own way. I would say that the demotion should come if you are not serving to the standards of that position.
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SDF_Specialist
Dragoon
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« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2007, 07:34:23 PM »

In a heartbeat.  Anything to  make our grade system more meaningful to the corporation, and closer to the military use of grade.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2007, 07:38:05 PM »

I'd be willing to back a reasonable proposal to restructure our CAP system to more appropriately reflect what we do and how we operate.  If that meant giving up my railroad tracks for some other, maybe even arbitrary CAP-unique symbol, or being just plain "CAP Member Kieloch," you bet I'd be fine with that.   CAP grade doesn't get me anything more than strange looks.

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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
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dwb
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« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2007, 07:40:24 PM »

I suspect the number of people whose answer would be "no" is sufficiently large to basically kill any plan to "raise" the standard.

Regardless, CAP grade is not military grade; it is what it is, and I simply don't think it's causing enough problems in the organization that it needs the time and attention it gets on CAP Talk.
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pixelwonk
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« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2007, 07:44:33 PM »

Thread merged with "demotion" topic
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: "Raising Standards" for CAP officer grade - would you take a demotion?
 


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