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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: "Raising Standards" for CAP officer grade - would you take a demotion?
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Author Topic: "Raising Standards" for CAP officer grade - would you take a demotion?  (Read 8609 times)
tribalelder
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Posts: 117

« on: September 07, 2007, 01:26:35 PM »

Question-The regs provide for demotion of up to 2 grades as disciplinary measure.  Is there any prohibition against a member initiated request for reduction in grade of MORE than 2 grades ?
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Since we all care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil -- after all, it's in our name.
O-Rex
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 01:43:54 PM »

If it's that serious, the Commander might consider Membership Termination or nonrenewal.
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Skyray
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 01:55:11 PM »

Discipline a volunteer, especially if it seems the least bit capricious, and you are likely going to be short one volunteer.  I worked long and hard to get one Spaatzen back in the program after he had been busted, and it was futile, even though we promoted him back to his old rank before his membership expired.  He let it lapse when it did expire, and he has never come back.
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Doug Johnson - Miami

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ddelaney103
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 02:15:39 PM »

Question-The regs provide for demotion of up to 2 grades as disciplinary measure.  Is there any prohibition against a member initiated request for reduction in grade of MORE than 2 grades ?

Do you mean a self-requested demotion, such as moving to NCO from officer?  It's possible, if unusual - it would probably require approval from higher ups.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 02:52:04 PM »

Question-The regs provide for demotion of up to 2 grades as disciplinary measure.  Is there any prohibition against a member initiated request for reduction in grade of MORE than 2 grades ?

If you're speaking of cadets, CAPR 52-16 provides for only for the demotion of up to 2 earned grades.  It's pretty clear cut, there is no provision allowing CAP to exceed that, regardless of who requests it.  Cadets are required to wear their earned grade, as well, so I don't see any way out of it.  I don't understand any reason why someone would self-request a demotion anyways - it's pretty dramatic, if you ask me.

If a cadet has done something to warrant more than 2 grades worth of demotion in the commander's viewpoint, they should move up the scale of progessive discipline and consider temporary membership suspension or membership termination, along with a written LOR.


If you're speaking of senior members, there is no limit to the grade to which a SM will be demoted.  A Lt Col could be demoted to SM. Simply check the grade they are to be demoted to on the CAPF 2 (in the Demotion section), and state the justification in the remarks block. 
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Skyray
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2007, 02:56:21 PM »

Question-The regs provide for demotion of up to 2 grades as disciplinary measure.  Is there any prohibition against a member initiated request for reduction in grade of MORE than 2 grades ?

Do you mean a self-requested demotion, such as moving to NCO from officer?  It's possible, if unusual - it would probably require approval from higher ups.

It has been a long time, and I don't totally remember the circumstances, but TP reduced a LtCol one grade for supporting my right to free speech, and the LtCol's response was a request to be reduced to SMWOG.  This request was granted, at least for the time he had remaining in CAP.  He is another one who didn't renew.
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Doug Johnson - Miami

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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2007, 03:11:01 PM »

member initiated? 

As in he/she asked to be demoted?
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Skyray
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2007, 03:32:37 PM »

member initiated? 

As in he/she asked to be demoted?

It's not real clear what post you are questioning, Eclipse.  If it be mine, yes, member initiated.  It was a he, he was Florida Senior Member of the Year in 1994 (I think) and he dropped out of CAP and joined the American Cadet Alliance as a mentor to the Young Marines.  A real loss to CAP in my opinion.  It took place during TP's first tour as Wing Commander, when he, like Nixon, was working through his "enemies" list.  It's not like Bowling didn't have enough warning how little character TP had when he reappointed him Wing Commander a couple of years later.
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Doug Johnson - Miami

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MIKE
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2007, 03:34:17 PM »

Doug, give it a rest.
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Mike Johnston
pixelwonk
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2007, 04:03:00 PM »

mmmkay... back on topic.

I can't provide a cite for the reg hounds, but I have asked Susie Parker about this myself. (after not getting an answer from the KB) 

Quote

Customer (Tedd A.) - 01/08/2007 10:44 AM Can a current CAP Field Grade officer willingly renounce their officer grade and become a SM without grade?
If so, how is it done and what would they be called, since the term "Senior Member" is not supposed to be used?


Tedd,
It is extremely unusually [sic] for a CAP senior member to denounce their grade but it certainly can be done.  Technically is a demotion (just not one for disciplinary reasons) and would be done on a CAP Form 2, with a note in the remarks section that the member voluntarily relinquishes the grade.

While the term "senior member" is no longer used in presentations outside of CAP, this is still the title of our adult membership category and the individual would still be referred to as a senior member.

If I can assist in any other way please let me know.


SUSAN P. PARKER
Deputy Director, Membership Services


While Ms. Parker doesn't seem to fully understand the difference between "renounce" and "denounce," I am living proof that this can be done, although I did not choose such a drastic self-demotion.  Maj to 1st Lt.
A Lieutenant Major, if you will.  :D

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Major Carrales
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2007, 04:11:27 PM »

Discipline a volunteer, especially if it seems the least bit capricious, and you are likely going to be short one volunteer.  I worked long and hard to get one Spaatzen back in the program after he had been busted, and it was futile, even though we promoted him back to his old rank before his membership expired.  He let it lapse when it did expire, and he has never come back.

Well, if a person is passionate about their service in CAP and came into it with the attitude that this is their place to "take ownership," and then after some term of service they "scew up" (hey, it happens)...then a truly honorable person who actually believes in the core values would take the grade reduction as a "fess up" and continue on.

Such a person might experience some "disgrace," at least in their own mind and heart, however, in theory their continued service at a higher level (as in intensity) would counter those feelings.

What say you?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 04:20:46 PM by Major Carrales » Logged
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Skyray
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2007, 04:30:21 PM »

Quote
What say you?

I promised Mike that I would quit beating on this horse.

What you say is true.  The problem is that there are many places to donate time and money, and only a few of us believe that CAP is worth climbing over less than effective leadership.  I happen to be one of them.  So without expanding further on my experiences in the past, my caveat to the leadership is to be very careful how, and for what, you discipline.  Be aware that no matter how lenient the discipline, it may well be an effective termination, depending on the motivation of the disciplinee.
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Doug Johnson - Miami

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ZigZag911
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2007, 06:04:34 PM »

member initiated? 

As in he/she asked to be demoted?

I know at least 1 case where a major (at the time) was very disgusted with the quality of officer being promoted to maj & lt col.....so this officer requested demotion to SMWOG, and continues to serve CAP very  actively in that status to this day!
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Trung Si Ma
Seasoned Member

Posts: 446

« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2007, 06:06:37 PM »

After completing AWC, I went from LtCol to MSgt, but it sure took a while to convince my chain of command.

We did a CAPF2 and in the remarks block put a statement about there not being an NCO program when I became a senior and that I wanted to honor my heritage.  I then signed the statement in the remarks section so that NHQ would know that I was requesting the action.  I now have a nice shiny ID card that says MSgt.
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Dragoon
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2007, 03:21:33 PM »

In the senior program, demotions are basically asking the guy to leave.  Because very few will stick around after that kind of public smack down.  That said, demotions are slightly easier than 2B, so it's not a bad way to get rid of a true screw-up.

In the cadet program, demotion can work if used properly.  As a squadron commander I used it once on two guys.  Once quit, one earned it back and became a decent troop.  The major effect was on the other cadets - I think it actually helped over all discipline to see their were consequences for poor behavior.
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SAR-EMT1
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« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2007, 07:29:50 PM »

While I could understand a volluntary RIG from an officer to an NCO spot. But why would anyone vollunteer to get RIG'd from an Officer spot  to another Officer spot - ex. Maj to Capt/1st Lt or Maj to SMWOG.

Not passing judgment, I just dont get it.
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C. A. Edgar
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2007, 08:30:39 PM »

While I could understand a volluntary RIG from an officer to an NCO spot. But why would anyone vollunteer to get RIG'd from an Officer spot  to another Officer spot - ex. Maj to Capt/1st Lt or Maj to SMWOG.

Not passing judgment, I just don't get it.

If I read all the Iowa stuff that came across on this board, the staff positions in that Wing are based on rank.  So if you are a CAPT and have a SQD, and they offer to promote you to Major but you have to go to group as a staff Officer, would that be an example of not promoting to keep the job, or even getting promoted, but asking for a demotion to keep the SQD CC job??  Iowa folks help me out a bit.........

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pixelwonk
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2007, 08:55:35 PM »

... But why would anyone vollunteer to get RIG'd from an Officer spot  to another Officer spot - ex. Maj to Capt/1st Lt or Maj to SMWOG.

Not passing judgment, I just dont get it.
I love answering this question.
Short answer: I'd rather be proud of wearing Capt bars because I was commanding a great unit, instead of being proud that I went to a weekend school and I took a correspondence course.

Not-as-short answer: Personally, I do not feel that the current grade structure means much,  Not even for duty performance promotions. I wouldn't cry if it went away entirely, but we know that won't happen unless USAF dramatically changes the way we do things.

Recognizing that, I believe CAP would be better off by rewarding higher grade to those who were assuming higher levels of leadership. We are already doing it with promotions for Squadron Commanders (Capt) or Group Commanders (Maj).   I've heard the responses such as "But I don't see CAP grade structure as being broken" [one opinion out of many] or "Higher grade is the only pay these volunteers get" [bogus].  I've seen enough choads get promoted because they pencil whipped the right forms in other areas.  Not wanting to feel like a hypocrite, I started with myself, trading in my gold oak leaves for 1st Lt bars.
 
Once I take command of a unit, I'll be glad to have my wife pin on Capt. bars.  Maybe some day I'll wear bottlecaps again too.

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mikeylikey
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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2007, 08:59:13 PM »

^  I don't get the reasoning for demoting yourself.  I am just stupid for not being able to follow along.  Sorry tedda
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pixelwonk
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2007, 09:28:41 PM »

I don't blame anybody for not understanding.  It's not like this is commonplace, and I may just not be expressing my intentions clearly.  If you knew me personally, or if we were having a face to face conversation, things would possibly be different.
 
I certainly didn't have to demote myself.  I simply could have stayed a Major and took the command billets when they came.  Actions speak louder than words, eh? So in part, my decision to demote may have been to get people talking.  After all, you now know of a person who has done it, and you have an idea why, don't you?

I admit, sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing, since I don't always wish to explain how I didn't do anything wrong to get silver bars again.  What brings me back though, is my "short answer" ^above

In the end, it all boils down to a personal choice, and the willingness to see it through.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: "Raising Standards" for CAP officer grade - would you take a demotion?
 


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