Air Force Discontinues Use of Base Decals

Started by ELTHunter, August 21, 2007, 05:56:24 pm

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Stonewall

Quote from: mikeylikey on September 24, 2007, 07:26:58 pm
Quote from: Stonewall on September 24, 2007, 01:22:42 pm
All this hassle, but drive 20 minutes into Maryland to Andrews AFB where they house Air Force One and they recognized CAP with no problem, allowing everyone from cadets driving themselves to parents coming to pick up cadets access. 


HAhah......1997-98 there was a guy named Jeff Klotz.  He was a CAP member and a PRETEND Air Force Reservist.  He made his own ID cards, his own orders and had himself assigned to the unit that worked on Air Force One.  He even promoted himself from AF Captain to Major and had a promotion party at the O-Club.  He was caught after he took vehicles from Andrews and weapons from Mead for the PAWG Summer Encampment.  He spent 6 months in Federal Prison.  I think if he would have done all that after 9/11 he would be rotting away for life in Guantanamo.

OK AF......lets not learn from your mistakes.


I remember that.  Ft. Indiantown Gap was involved, right?  Is that where the PAWG encampment was or something?  I was in the Army Guard at the time and FIG is where we did NCO schools.  Someone knew I was in CAP and talked about it, I laughed.

mikeylikey

You got it right Kirt.  The FBI and CID came and shut down the Garrison for a month at "the GAP" when Klotz was able to draw more weapons and ammo from both the PA NG, and the Active Army that was there at the time.  It was so huge, because a lot of the Ammo went unused, and then was "unaccounted" for along with various other "junk". 

What's up monkeys?

SAR-EMT1

Ok, so discussion of Mr Koltz aside [idiot] (how in the HECK do you fake a military ID? If he was REALLY SMART he'd have weaseled his way into the payroll )  Should CAP members make some effort to procure a base ID or a sticker from an Army post or anything?

How will the change affect us?
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

jimmydeanno

I really don't understand why "you people" have such hard times getting onto Military Installations.  There is no reason for us to need to "procure" military IDs or base stickers at all - it doesn't make things any easier or harder.  What I think the issue is?  How you are presenting yourselves.

As a CAP member, showing only CAP ID and Driver's license, I have NEVER had to get day passes or been searched at the gates or even questioned as to what I was doing on the installation. These include bases such as Langley AFB, Norfolk Naval Station, Fort Eustis, Pensacola NAS, Wright Patterson AFB, Keesler AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Pickett, Westover AFB, Oceana NAS, Camp Pendleton, Andrews AFB, Bolling AFB, Hanscomb AFB, Pease ANGB, etc.

I did have a member, once, have to get called into the SF desk because the SF airman was new, but the desk just said yep, CAP is allowed to come on base.

If you meet on a military installation or there is a squadron there, there should be a relationship with SF.  We have vistors all the time to our squadron, heck, we had a large number of people who weren't even CAP members able to get on base with their driver's license because we talked to SF beforehand and have a good relationship with them.  They understand what/who we are.

The worst that happens is they make you get a day pass - big deal, I'm sorry that takes precedence over your ability to shop at the the MCSS...next thing we know, CAP members will be demanding the red carpet gets rolled out on the TARMAC for CAP Wing CCs...AAARG!

/*rant
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

mikeylikey

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on September 25, 2007, 04:44:34 am
Ok, so discussion of Mr Koltz aside [idiot] (how in the HECK do you fake a military ID? If he was REALLY SMART he'd have weaseled his way into the payroll )  Should CAP members make some effort to procure a base ID or a sticker from an Army post or anything?

How will the change affect us?


Had a conversation with a DEERS employee today.  She said that there is a new memo out from their HQ, that the AF is getting rid of base specific ID CARDS and all civilians, to include CAP members will get a CAC that says "Civilian", no branch given, and on the front will have the activities the person is prohibited from using (such as Commissary, PX etc.)  This will make base access uniform for those individuals that need access, but are not military, not Appropriated or Non-Appropriated Fund Employees.  We should see the CAC issued card within 1 year.   

Then I heard a rumor from a very reliable source that said the AF approached CAP and offered them the CAC 2 years ago, and TP turned them down.  I need to do more research on that item, but I am moving toward believing it.
What's up monkeys?

Al Sayre

How is that going to work when you have an MSA?
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Stonewall

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 25, 2007, 01:39:52 pm
I really don't understand why "you people" have such hard times getting onto Military Installations.  There is no reason for us to need to "procure" military IDs or base stickers at all - it doesn't make things any easier or harder.  What I think the issue is?  How you are presenting yourselves.

As a CAP member, showing only CAP ID and Driver's license, I have NEVER had to get day passes or been searched at the gates or even questioned as to what I was doing on the installation. These include bases such as Langley AFB, Norfolk Naval Station, Fort Eustis, Pensacola NAS, Wright Patterson AFB, Keesler AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Pickett, Westover AFB, Oceana NAS, Camp Pendleton, Andrews AFB, Bolling AFB, Hanscomb AFB, Pease ANGB, etc.

I did have a member, once, have to get called into the SF desk because the SF airman was new, but the desk just said yep, CAP is allowed to come on base.

If you meet on a military installation or there is a squadron there, there should be a relationship with SF.  We have vistors all the time to our squadron, heck, we had a large number of people who weren't even CAP members able to get on base with their driver's license because we talked to SF beforehand and have a good relationship with them.  They understand what/who we are.

The worst that happens is they make you get a day pass - big deal, I'm sorry that takes precedence over your ability to shop at the the MCSS...next thing we know, CAP members will be demanding the red carpet gets rolled out on the TARMAC for CAP Wing CCs...AAARG!

/*rant



Dern it, something happened and my post got deleted.  Grrrr...  Will post after dinner.

mikeylikey

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 25, 2007, 01:39:52 pm
I really don't understand why "you people" have such hard times getting onto Military Installations.  There is no reason for us to need to "procure" military IDs or base stickers at all - it doesn't make things any easier or harder.  What I think the issue is?  How you are presenting yourselves.

As a CAP member, showing only CAP ID and Driver's license, I have NEVER had to get day passes or been searched at the gates or even questioned as to what I was doing on the installation. These include bases such as Langley AFB, Norfolk Naval Station, Fort Eustis, Pensacola NAS, Wright Patterson AFB, Keesler AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Pickett, Westover AFB, Oceana NAS, Camp Pendleton, Andrews AFB, Bolling AFB, Hanscomb AFB, Pease ANGB, etc.


Well you are lucky then!  As far as letting visitors on post/base to you squadron, without any registration on their part at the gate, is a violation of the services rules governing access.  So now, a TERRORIST knows that all he or sh has to do is say "I am going to visit the CAP SQD", they can get on post.  Thanks! 

The way you present yourself only goes so far as to getting on post.  There are rules, and in your case, those installations seem to be very lax on the rules.  I guess it will just take more FT DIX incidents (perhaps in your area) to get the security "gears" moving again.  I have noticed most installations have even done away with vehicle searches that were so common place after 9/11.

Hell.....I have a decal on my car, am in uniform and have a DOD ID Card, and get the third degree at most places I go.
What's up monkeys?

PHall

Quote from: mikeylikey on September 26, 2007, 12:12:58 amHell.....I have a decal on my car, am in uniform and have a DOD ID Card, and get the third degree at most places I go.



Must be your attitude or something because I have a decal, a DOD ID card and have been in uniform and have had absolutely no problems at all. And this is with multiple Army, Air Force, Marine Corps, Navy and Guard/Reserve Bases.

Being professional with them usually results in them being professional with you.

mikeylikey

Quote from: PHall on September 26, 2007, 12:39:37 am
Quote from: mikeylikey on September 26, 2007, 12:12:58 amHell.....I have a decal on my car, am in uniform and have a DOD ID Card, and get the third degree at most places I go.



Must be your attitude or something because I have a decal, a DOD ID card and have been in uniform and have had absolutely no problems at all. And this is with multiple Army, Air Force, Marine Corps, Navy and Guard/Reserve Bases.

Being professional with them usually results in them being professional with you.


I am a professional and act in a professional manner.  I say "good morning, good afternoon, good evening, how are you SGT, nice day...etc....".  I usually get a pleasant response from the enlisted guys (not so much from senior NCO's), but usually get a crappy response and attitude from the Civilian Gate Guards.  Almost like they don't like their job or something.  Hell.....I even return the salute from the enlisted guys after they see my ID, there are some Officers that just snatch the ID card back and drive away.
What's up monkeys?

Eclipse

Quote from: mikeylikey on September 26, 2007, 12:47:17 amI usually get a pleasant response from the enlisted guys (not so much from senior NCO's), but usually get a crappy response and attitude from the Civilian Gate Guards. 


This has been our experience as well - basically whenever we deal with someone in a military uniform, things go smoothly and straightforward - that doesn't mean we always get what we want, but we get straight answers and no BS.

As soon as we get a civilian in between us and the military, that's when things go South.

In their semi-defense, things can get pretty muddled with regards to who has responsibility and jurisdiction.  You've got DOD security, SP's, at least two different
civilian security contractors depending on which building you go into, not to mention the local PD patrolling the streets you have to cross between some parts of the base. And those civilians are probably not buying summer homes with their salary.

When the base converted to mostly civilians on the gates, their courtesies were non-existent (as expected).  Word has it that someone with LOTS of stars came through a gate with a slouched / slacker greeting.

Since then, when the civilian guards see a blue bar, they all snap to attention and salute until returned or the vehicle leaves.



JCJ

I do not have a CAC, DOD vehicle sticker or other DOD credentials.  I do have our new CAP photo ID.  Before I got the new photo ID, I had the old CAP photo ID (CAPF 19) and membership card & state DL.  Got sent to the visitor's center > 50% of the time.

Since I have the new photo ID, I've been waved straight through on base every time.  This is at an AFB and at a JRB (I go to both on various occasions).

The bottom line is that you can enter the base if the Base CC or designee allows (usually the case when there is a regular CAP presence on base) - and if so, the new CAP photo ID seems to work well.  I also agree that how you present yourself (pleasant & professional demeanor, professional military appearance) has alot to do with how smooth the process goes.

One other thing to know, if the base (real world) force protection condition is significantly elevated, as civilians our base access may be restricted (unless there are special arrangements with your local SF squadron).  Something to think about when considering basing critical CAP ES infrastructure or facilities on military bases.

Stonewall

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 25, 2007, 01:39:52 pm
I really don't understand why "you people" have such hard times getting onto Military Installations.  There is no reason for us to need to "procure" military IDs or base stickers at all - it doesn't make things any easier or harder.  What I think the issue is?  How you are presenting yourselves.

As a CAP member, showing only CAP ID and Driver's license, I have NEVER had to get day passes or been searched at the gates or even questioned as to what I was doing on the installation. These include bases such as Langley AFB, Norfolk Naval Station, Fort Eustis, Pensacola NAS, Wright Patterson AFB, Keesler AFB, Lackland AFB, Fort Pickett, Westover AFB, Oceana NAS, Camp Pendleton, Andrews AFB, Bolling AFB, Hanscomb AFB, Pease ANGB, etc.


Personally, I've never had an issue because I've always been a card carrying member of the military.  But for some of the CAP folks, it's been a roller coaster.

You mention that you had no problem at Bolling AFB.  Aren't you a dependent?  Don't you have a decal and ID card?  I've been going to Bolling since 1992 and up until 9/11, our CAP members had zero problem.  No decals necessary, just a CAP ID and DL and you'd be granted access.  Post 9/11 on the other hand, like I said, a roller coater.  If you're one of the folks that has been to Bolling a few times, not every week for a few years, then you may have gotten lucky.  For those of us that go (or went) regularly, it would change almost weekly.  Our Wing HQ is on Bolling as well as a local squadron.  You'd think they'd have it squared away.  We've gone from zero accessability, to having our names on a list, to base IDs with decals, to having to register every time, having the LO/LNCO call down 15 min prior to our arrival, having the LO/LNCO send a list of who is coming on meeting nights and of course, the casual wave in because there are no issues at that moment in time.  It has also varied when the Army Guard showed up for base security compared to having the regular SF folks there. 

As for Andrews, I've never heard of a single problem with CAPers getting on base.  After 9/11, a CAP member was a full time SFer there and I think he go things squared away real quick like.  When they went to contract guards, again, I don't recall a single issue.  I've brought van loads of cadets onto Andrews and I've had cadets' parents drive them on without a hiccup.

Ft. Belvoir/Davison AAF, not bad at all.  DAAF is where the squadron meets and that's where the wing has their 2 aircraft.  We had been there for years, like 20 years, so there was never an issue.  After 9/11, we just reminded the MPs we had cadets/seniors coming in and they should have a CAP ID card.  Or, there may be parents coming in who won't have any military or CAP ID.  No problem.  But to get onto Ft. Belvoir proper, it fluctuated a bit when the transfered entry point security over to contract guards.  After a few weeks and couple of meetings, it was cleared up.

Ft. Pickett, no problem, like you said.

Ft. AP Hill, we only trained there a couple times a year, so when we did, we had advanced notification with a list of names and SSNs, plus a leader's recon and advance party to smooth the skids.  Even if CAP members who weren't on the list showed up, they'd be cleared to come on.

At Mayport Naval Station, they don't have a clue as to who CAP is for the most part.  Even though we shut off ELTs there regularly, there isn't enough CAP activity to have all the security folks recognize a 14 year old's parents driving them on base to buy BDUs.  If it's a new seaman, chances are they'll just let them on.  If it's a petty officer, they may give them a hard time and be told to get a visitors pass.

I will agree with your point about presenting yourself appropriately.  If you show up in a military uniform (not BBDUs) and groomed properly, you'll probably experience less friction.  But try showing up with a full beard, donut juice on your shirt and dandruff all over the place, and yeah, you'll probably be sent to the visitors shack.

So while one person on one day gets right in, the next person on the next day may get hassled.  I've seen in both ways.  And Jimmy, at least for the past few years, you've been a dependent with a decal, so of course you didn't have a problem getting on base.

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Stonewall on September 26, 2007, 01:02:28 pm
Aren't you a dependent?  Don't you have a decal and ID card?...   And Jimmy, at least for the past few years, you've been a dependent with a decal, so of course you didn't have a problem getting on base.


Yes, I am a dependent, and for a few of those years I didn't have a base decal on my vehicle since my wife's name wasn't on the registration it was a no go.  Also, I don't use my dep ID to get on base when acting as a CAP member -ever- I figure it only helps to build famililiarity with the CAPID cards and helps build awareness. 

Even WIWAC there wasn't any problem with getting on base with a CAPID (pre-9/11) and without a decal (post-911) haven't had any problems.  I have had more 'random vehicle searches' when using my dependent ID (20-25) than a CAP one (0).

Quote...If you show up in a military uniform (not BBDUs) and groomed properly, you'll probably experience less friction.  But try showing up with a full beard, donut juice on your shirt and dandruff all over the place, and yeah, you'll probably be sent to the visitors shack.


Good point.

All I can really speak for is my experiences and what I've witnessed, but I don't think that having a Civilian CAC card or base decals for CAP members will really accomplish what people think it will.  Just another ID to haul around - especially without a "CAP" listed on it.  CAC card for the gate, CAP ID for the MCSS, etc.  Too many hurdles - if you meet on a base, establish a rappor with the SF team, get friendly with the base commander - that is what makes things easier for CAPers. 

I just don't see the need for us to need all the "accessories" when most members visit military installations perhaps once or twice a year.  I also think that those that get bent out of shape for having to get a day pass for those visits need to get over themselves, but that's just MHO.

Mikey: I hardly think that my comment is going to lead to the downfall of western civilization.


If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Stonewall

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 26, 2007, 02:28:08 pmEven WIWAC there wasn't any problem with getting on base with a CAPID (pre-9/11) and without a decal (post-911) haven't had any problems.  I have had more 'random vehicle searches' when using my dependent ID (20-25) than a CAP one (0).


I've been driving for 18 years now.  I'm a Navy brat so for my first 2 years of driving I went to the Navy base regularly.  Since then, I've been in the Army, Army National Guard and now the Air National Guard.  I have always been in and around military installations, before and after 9/11.  In the DC area, I averaged about 3 trips a week to either Ft. Myer, Bolling AFB, Andrews, Quantico, or Ft. Belvoir.  Never, ever, in 18 years of driving, have I been stopped for a ramdon vehicle inspection.  For you to have had 20 to 25 blows my mind.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 26, 2007, 02:28:08 pmI just don't see the need for us to need all the "accessories" when most members visit military installations perhaps once or twice a year.  I also think that those that get bent out of shape for having to get a day pass for those visits need to get over themselves, but that's just MHO.


First, I don't think anyone is caught up in themselves.  While your experiences may be that of hassle free, I know several level headed, chilled out, non-confrontational professional CAP types who have bent over backwards to comform to whatever security practice a base is doing that particular day, and when you go on base one or two times a week, then yes, it can become a hassle, and yes, people do get a little discouraged from doing CAP stuff when it becomes more work than it's worth.  The Wing Chief of Staff for NATCAP, at one point, refused to go to weekly meetings because he'd spend 10 hours at work, go home, eat dinner with his family, and attempt to do his "job" at wing only to be put through the wringer for 20 minutes trying to get on base.   When you're spending between 20 and 30 minutes to get a pass so you can go to wing headquarters when, just the week before, they let you on with your DL and CAP ID, it gets pretty dern frustrating.

It is not up to us, CAP.  It is up to each and every base.  There is no set standard from base to base.  Ft. Belvoir may be the most CAP friendly, an Army post.  But an AF Base down the road may be a huge hassle.  People actually stopped going to wing headquarters because of the hassle it was to get on base.  For a while, we fixed the problem ourselves.  The Navy base that is connected to Bolling has a gate too, protected by DOD police.  You can access Bolling from the Navy side, no problem.  So when the Navy let us on anytime we wanted, we just went that route.  But of course, the Air Force got pi$$ed off because CAP found a loophole in their security.

jimmydeanno

I can agree with that, however, if your wing HQ is on the base, why is there such an issue?  Don't they see CAPIDs all the time?  Even if they make you get base passes, why is there such a run-around getting them? 
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Stonewall

I wish I had an answer for you.  You'd think it would be that easy.

mikeylikey

Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 26, 2007, 05:07:08 pm
I can agree with that, however, if your wing HQ is on the base, why is there such an issue?  Don't they see CAPIDs all the time?  Even if they make you get base passes, why is there such a run-around getting them? 


Because standing in a line for a half an hour, to go to weekly meeting is insane.  My problem, is the guy cutting the grass or the person who is a federal prison work-release dude (in prison for selling crack and meth) can get ID card, that gets them waived right past the gate.  When CAP (who go on base to perform "missions for America", can't get one because we somehow are more of a risk.
What's up monkeys?

Grumpy

Mikey,

I believe what Stonewall is asking is why is the AF giving us such a hassle? Not why are we making such a fuss?

mikeylikey

^ Gotcha, my mistake.  I have no reasonable reason why the AF is giving us a hard time.
What's up monkeys?