Warrant Officers

[biomed441]

With the USAF Re-introducing Warrant officers, I'm curious how this might apply to CAPs rank structure and or if it should at all?   It looks like the new USAF Warrant Officers are only for specific career fields (IT and cyber operations) so application is already limited in scope here, so I don't particularly see application for CAP. I'd venture to say most CAP IT officers would rather progress through the traditional PD Program and officer grades, though theoretically could be offered a warrant path instead since there are 5 levels for warrants to progress in.   

Or, for those members who are AF Warrant officers and also members of CAP, which if I recall a few of the first graduates of the new warrant program are CAP members.  Would CAP Match their grade or require they progress through the CAP Officer program instead. 

Random thoughts. No real opinion either way and can see more reasons to NOT bring back warrant officers than for it, but who knows.

[CAP9907]

Another solution searching for a problem, just like the NCO program. Our rank structure is already warped with random Col's and way too many Lt Col's running around with no command responsibilities. Just no.

[Slim]

Or, for those members who are AF Warrant officers and also members of CAP, which if I recall a few of the first graduates of the new warrant program are CAP members.  Would CAP Match their grade or require they progress through the CAP Officer program instead. 

One of those new WOs is a member of my wing, is currently a CAP SMSgt, our wing NCO advisor and IT director.  Unless/until CAP brings back warrant grades, he has no intention of changing that status.

I could see an instance where WOs might come back into CAP and be useful, but that is highly unlikely to happen, and I'm not really a proponent of it.  Just a passing thought I had while discussing some CP related items with a few others (sitting around trying to solve all of CAP's problems).

Otherwise, since we're all expected to be technical experts in one or more areas, with increasing levels of education, training and responsibilities, I really don't see much of a need for WOs in CAP.

[SarDragon]

As far as I'm concerned, warrant officers in CAP can stay gone. I was one many moons ago, and there wasn't much functional difference from regular officers. It wasn't even a 21 and under thing. When I joined, I knew a couple of WOs in their 40s.

[MHC5096]

Our version of Warrant Officers already exist...FO, TFO, and SFO. Those grades are reserved for senior members under the age of 21. As it is, a good portion of our membership doesn't even know what they are. I remember attending a Vermont Wing SLS back in the early 90s as a 20 year old Senior Flight Officer. I kept being told I was in the wrong classroom and that the Cadet Advisory Council meeting was down the hall. Current and former military Warrant Officers can already receive an equivalent regular officer grade. No reason to make things more complex than they already are.

[PHall]

Well if you want to bring Warrant Officers back to CAP you'll have to convince the Air Force it's a good idea since the Air Force controls the officer grades in CAP.

CAPR 35-5, 22 Nov 2016, Para 1.5.10.  Changes to CAP Grade Structure.  The Air Force has authority over the CAP grade structure. Requests for changes to the CAP General Officer Grade Structure must be approved by the Chief of Staff of the Air Force. Requests for changes to the CAP Grade Structure for Colonels and below will be approved by the CAP-USAF/CC.

[biomed441]

Another solution searching for a problem, just like the NCO program. Our rank structure is already warped with random Col's and way too many Lt Col's running around with no command responsibilities. Just no.

Not trying to solve anything. I said I had no opinion either way and could see more reasons to not have them come back than to come back.

And sorry for being one of those Lt Col's with no command responsibilities... Having been in multiple command assignments, many of which I didn't want because other members can't or wont step up to fill those roles. Maybe I'm a little tired of doing all the work and think some of the newer members need to step up and I can sit back and provide mentorship.  Or you can force me into retirement, but I'd like to see what happens when suddenly all of our Cols and Lt Cols are told they can't be in CAP anymore because they're not holding a command or that they're going to be demoted unless they're commanders again.  Let me know how that works out for the organization.

[biomed441]

Well if you want to bring Warrant Officers back to CAP you'll have to convince the Air Force it's a good idea since the Air Force controls the officer grades in CAP.

I have no care one way or another. Just an observation that I thought might be worth having a chat about.  Jury is still out on if starting a discussion on "gasp" a discussion board was a good idea. 

[CAP9907]

Another solution searching for a problem, just like the NCO program. Our rank structure is already warped with random Col's and way too many Lt Col's running around with no command responsibilities. Just no.

Not trying to solve anything. I said I had no opinion either way and could see more reasons to not have them come back than to come back.

And sorry for being one of those Lt Col's with no command responsibilities... Having been in multiple command assignments, many of which I didn't want because other members can't or wont step up to fill those roles. Maybe I'm a little tired of doing all the work and think some of the newer members need to step up and I can sit back and provide mentorship.  Or you can force me into retirement, but I'd like to see what happens when suddenly all of our Cols and Lt Cols are told they can't be in CAP anymore because they're not holding a command or that they're going to be demoted unless they're commanders again.  Let me know how that works out for the organization.

I fear that you took my post as a personal attack, and it wasn't. My comment was not aimed at you as I have no idea who you are IRL, it was a response to the forum in general. I do not believe that anyone is advocating reverting to some rank after command either.

Be an outsider and walk into a room with 6 CAP LtCol's, ranging from 33 to 70 y/o and try to figure out who the Group Commander is and who the local squadron IT bubba is. Perhaps decades in CAP has left me a bit jaded about our top-heavy appearance.

[biomed441]

I fear that you took my post as a personal attack, and it wasn't. My comment was not aimed at you as I have no idea who you are IRL, it was a response to the forum in general. I do not believe that anyone is advocating reverting to some rank after command either.

Be an outsider and walk into a room with 6 CAP LtCol's, ranging from 33 to 70 y/o and try to figure out who the Group Commander is and who the local squadron IT bubba is. Perhaps decades in CAP has left me a bit jaded about our top-heavy appearance.

And perhaps my temper and lack of tact got me this morning. Apologies. At risk of derailing this thread (not really much to derail though) I do see your point on the top-heavy appearance.  It's the artifact of having an organization that didn't equate grade with responsibility, but rather with individual achievements.  We went in a somewhat correct direction when we equated Lt Col to Level 5 instead of level 4, but then made level 5 easier to achieve with Vol U. So not sure that solved anything in that department. Not to say Level 5 is an easy achievement now as it still is not and worthy of recognition. 

I'm not sure what the solution here would be though other than a complete overhaul of our education training program and/or adding significantly more barriers to promotions. Make Grades reflective of duty assignment?  Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the CGAUX does this?  Must be at least a Unit Commander to promote to Lt Col and it's rescinded upon completion of your term unless you complete level 5 and move up to a higher command or specific Group/Wing assignment? and continue to do this to keep grade or get bumped down to captain or Major?

[PHall]

Perhaps decades in CAP has left me a bit jaded about our top-heavy appearance.

One of the reasons given by National for making it harder to make Lt Col now. The Level V requirement will definitely thin the herd.

[SarDragon]

Being top-heavy is a given in any organization that lacks an "up or out" policy. It seems disingenuous to promote members, and then demote them, on a regular basis.

I think the CG Auxies are provided with their rank insignia, while CAP members usually have to buy theirs. That makes the changes simpler, and avoids a bit of sewing for those with uniforms requiring it.

[MHC5096]

Coast Guard Auxiliary members pay for all of their own uniforms and insignia the same as CAP. Trust me, I just got appointed as National Director for the Vessel Exam and RBS Partner Visitation Directorate and spent $200+ updating my uniforms with 4 stripes and eagles.

[SarDragon]

Coast Guard Auxiliary members pay for all of their own uniforms and insignia the same as CAP. Trust me, I just got appointed as National Director for the Vessel Exam and RBS Partner Visitation Directorate and spent $200+ updating my uniforms with 4 stripes and eagles.

OK, I was misinformed. 

[Shuman 14]

Personally I think all CAP Senior Members should be Warrant Officers...
 
Senior Member Without Grade = CAP WO Candidate
Level 1 complete = CAP WO-1
Level 2 complete = CAP CWO-2
Level 3 complete = CAP CWO-3
Level 4 complete = CAP CWO-4
Level 5 complete = CAP CWO-5

No NCO ranks and all Officer Ranks become temporary assignment so while you are the Squadron Commander you wear Captain's Bars, when your tour of duty is over, back to Warrant Officer you go.

I can maybe see a way that successful CAP members could keep their appointed rank as a reward for a job well done and I can also see a grandfather clause for all current CAP member with rank, so not to strip anyone of rank they earned.

It would solve the perceived problem of Rank in CAP.

I would also recommend that we make the Rank Insignia a different color than the USAF Warrant Officer Insignia, Maybe make the the little squares Grey instead of Sky Blue.

[PHall]

Personally I think all CAP Senior Members should be Warrant Officers...
 
Senior Member Without Grade = CAP WO Candidate
Level 1 complete = CAP WO-1
Level 2 complete = CAP CWO-2
Level 3 complete = CAP CWO-3
Level 4 complete = CAP CWO-4
Level 5 complete = CAP CWO-5

No NCO ranks and all Officer Ranks become temporary assignment so while you are the Squadron Commander you wear Captain's Bars, when your tour of duty is over, back to Warrant Officer you go.

I can maybe see a way that successful CAP members could keep their appointed rank as a reward for a job well done and I can also see a grandfather clause for all current CAP member with rank, so not to strip anyone of rank they earned.

It would solve the perceived problem of Rank in CAP.

I would also recommend that we make the Rank Insignia a different color than the USAF Warrant Officer Insignia, Maybe make the the little squares Grey instead of Sky Blue.

Why even make them Warrant Officers? Just make everyone a Senior Member without Grade. You accept a position that has a rank tied to it then you wear that grade but as soon as your term is over back to SM.

[Shuman 14]

Why even make them Warrant Officers? Just make everyone a Senior Member without Grade. You accept a position that has a rank tied to it then you wear that grade but as soon as your term is over back to SM.

That would work too.

[SarDragon]

Personally I think all CAP Senior Members should be Warrant Officers...
 
[elided]

No NCO ranks and all Officer Ranks become temporary assignment so while you are the Squadron Commander you wear Captain's Bars, when your tour of duty is over, back to Warrant Officer you go.

[elided]

Do we really need the additional administrative burden? We seem to have enough trouble taking care of the existing system without adding more tasking at the national and local levels. We're talking about a new regulation, a new form, and updated eServices programming, among others. Then someone at the squadron needs to keep track of all this. The annual PAs will become even more of a nightmare.