October 22, 2020, 12:31:56 am

ABU Collar Insignia SMWOG

Started by old141pilot, September 18, 2020, 09:26:01 pm

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old141pilot

Sorry if I missed this. In 2012 a senior member without grade wore "CAP" cloth insignia (white on ultramarine) on both collars of BDU. I have reviewed the new uniform manual for ABU and I don't find SMWOG mentioned (only 2nd Lt through Col). Vanguard sells the silver/dark blue cloth CAP Insignia. While I have your attention, no insignia on cover for SMWOG, correct? Thanks

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HandsomeWalt_USMC

Incorrect. For SMWOG pursuing officer grade the embroidered CAP emblems are worn on the collars and cap. The new CAPR 39-1 shows in attachment 5, figures A5-1 & A5-2 either the grey shoulder mark with CAP only and no grade insignia or the embroidered CAP emblem as the grade insignia for SMWOG who are pursuing officer grade. The only SMs not wearing any grade insignia currently are those members with prior service NCO rank until they complete Level I.
HANDSOME SENDS

Semper Fidelis

"PRIDE IS CONTAGIOUS"

NovemberWhiskey

I'm not sure I agree, but you do have to read between the lines.

Figure A5-2 shows that "CAP" insignia embroidered on ultramarine blue cloth is appropriate as a shoulder/collar mark for senior members pursuing officer grade. It shows nothing for navy (dark) blue cloth.

Refer then to section 5.1.1.1.1.1 which describes the wear of officer grade insignia on the ABU uniform. This requires wear of the dark blue cloth insignia.  Since there is no prescribed dark blue cloth insignia for senior members pursuing officer grade, it does seem like the regulation implies they are not to be worn.

So you can wear ultramarine cloth CAP insignia on the BDU, at least until the wear-out date; but you can't wear the dark blue cloth CAP insignia on any uniform. I think.

HandsomeWalt_USMC

Good point, I admit I missed that. I'd interpret it as an oversight, personally. Vanguard offers the CAP emblems on dark blue cloth and the intent seems to be that SMWOG pursuing officer grade wear the CAP emblem, as illustrated by the grey marks.
Perhaps this is something worthy of an inquiry to NHQ. I wore the dark blue CAP emblems as a SMWOG and I'd certainly not tell another SM to remove them. Sample size of one, but I was also never told to remove mine despite having interactions with our Wg/CC and others wearing them in BDUs. Even as a 28 year old with a decade of military service when I returned to CAP, I still looked like I could have been an older cadet if I shaved my mustache. The embroidered insignia clearly distinguished me as a SM. Then again, I'm also a Marine and we like simple things. 😂
HANDSOME SENDS

Semper Fidelis

"PRIDE IS CONTAGIOUS"

Eclipse

CAPR 39-1, Page 130:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAPR_039_001_5_Mar_2020__6EA485E9593C8.pdf

Adult members without grade pursuing office grade wear the insignia pictured on their collar and hat
with the ABUs.



NovemberWhiskey

September 19, 2020, 05:26:13 pm #6 Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 05:33:25 pm by NovemberWhiskey
I agree it's confusing. Prior to CAPR 39-1, it might have actually been clearer.

The BDU instructions only referenced ultramarine blue cloth insignia, and the only references to the dark blue insignia were in the context of corporate flight uniforms.

I did what you did: wore the dark blue CAP insignia on ABUs. I looked at CAPM 39-1, read what was applicable for BDUs (ultramarine CAP insignia), and then interpreted the separate ABU wear instruction as "wear the dark blue version of whatever CAPM 39-1 says to wear on BDUs".

Now, the bit that used to give guidance on USAF field uniforms for senior members pursuing officer grade has been completely excised from section 1.4.

The way it's written doesn't give much hint of what NHQ actually intends.

JC004

Quote from: Eclipse on September 19, 2020, 05:14:37 pmCAPR 39-1, Page 130:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAPR_039_001_5_Mar_2020__6EA485E9593C8.pdf

Adult members without grade pursuing office grade wear the insignia pictured on their collar and hat
with the ABUs.


How come all the OTHER ultramarine insignia are shown on dark blue EXCEPT the cloth "cutouts?"  This chart doesn't make a good case for the intent of dark blue "CAP" insignia.

Eclipse




Luis R. Ramos

September 20, 2020, 05:09:44 pm #9 Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 05:13:09 pm by Luis R. Ramos
Because GASP maybe the regulation changed and YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED to use dark blue CAP cutouts ANYMORE! Boom!
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
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Eclipse




shuman14

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 20, 2020, 05:09:44 pmBecause GASP maybe the regulation changed and YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED to use dark blue CAP cutouts ANYMORE! Boom!

If they are not intended to be worn, then who instructed Vanguard to produce them in the first place?

BTW, not disagreeing with you, simply asking a question.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Capt Thompson

Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2020, 04:59:51 pm
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 20, 2020, 05:09:44 pmBecause GASP maybe the regulation changed and YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED to use dark blue CAP cutouts ANYMORE! Boom!

If they are not intended to be worn, then who instructed Vanguard to produce them in the first place?

BTW, not disagreeing with you, simply asking a question.
Not sure if they were ever instructed to make them, when the original wear instructions for the ABU's came out in 2016 there was no mention of them, but at that time SMWOG wore them on ultramarine on the woodland BDU's. Vanguard probably just assumed they would be needed and since they made them, they sell them to unsuspecting members.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

jeders

Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2020, 04:59:51 pm
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 20, 2020, 05:09:44 pmBecause GASP maybe the regulation changed and YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED to use dark blue CAP cutouts ANYMORE! Boom!

If they are not intended to be worn, then who instructed Vanguard to produce them in the first place?

BTW, not disagreeing with you, simply asking a question.

You're assuming that Vanguard didn't just make them of there own accord (because that never happens  ::) ).
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: shuman14 on September 21, 2020, 04:59:51 pmIf they are not intended to be worn, then who instructed Vanguard to produce them in the first place?

As discussed above, there was a multiple year period (from the issuance of the ABU wear instructions until the release of CAPR 39-1) when wearing them on ABUs was consistent with a reasonable reading of the uniform rules.

JC004

September 21, 2020, 08:45:46 pm #15 Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 09:05:40 pm by JC004
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2020, 01:52:33 pmboom

Of course the chart also shows something for which there was no such animal - plastic encased Flight Officer insignia.  These simply don't exist.  The closest thing I've ever seen are my grandfather's CAP Warrant Officer insignia.

In the case of the cutouts, Vanguard stopped production of ultramarine insignia and sells them until they run out.  Therefore, there would be no authorized BDU cutouts to match if you ordered new nametapes and such, if they hadn't produced the dark navy cutouts.  I feel that's the answer, and also that 39-1 has some screwy issues, like positioning of the CC badge for graduated CCs on utility uniforms.

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: JC004 on September 21, 2020, 08:45:46 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2020, 01:52:33 pmboom

Of course the chart also shows something for which there was no such animal - plastic encased Flight Officer insignia.  These simply don't exist.  The closest thing I've ever seen are my grandfather's CAP Warrant Officer insignia.

In the case of the cutouts, Vanguard stopped production of ultramarine insignia and sells them until they run out.  Therefore, there would be no authorized BDU cutouts to match if you ordered new nametapes and such, if they hadn't produced the dark navy cutouts.  I feel that's the answer, and also that 39-1 has some screwy issues, like positioning of the CC badge for graduated CCs on utility uniforms.

Lets also not forget that now that we're moving away from plastic encased, with no rank on the flight patch, the regs seem to suggest that you would wear your flight officer rank in blue cloth on your flight suit, with a standard senior member cloth name patch. Personally I like the change for our unicorn flight officers out there, but the reg doesn't make it explicit.

The way I'm interpreting the CAP cutout regs, it seems that they were used with BDU's, and the intent was to phase them out with ABU's but that was not made explicitly clear with a phase-out date.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


JC004

Quote from: Okayish Aviator on October 04, 2020, 01:24:32 pm
Quote from: JC004 on September 21, 2020, 08:45:46 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2020, 01:52:33 pmboom

Of course the chart also shows something for which there was no such animal - plastic encased Flight Officer insignia.  These simply don't exist.  The closest thing I've ever seen are my grandfather's CAP Warrant Officer insignia.

In the case of the cutouts, Vanguard stopped production of ultramarine insignia and sells them until they run out.  Therefore, there would be no authorized BDU cutouts to match if you ordered new nametapes and such, if they hadn't produced the dark navy cutouts.  I feel that's the answer, and also that 39-1 has some screwy issues, like positioning of the CC badge for graduated CCs on utility uniforms.

Lets also not forget that now that we're moving away from plastic encased, with no rank on the flight patch, the regs seem to suggest that you would wear your flight officer rank in blue cloth on your flight suit, with a standard senior member cloth name patch. Personally I like the change for our unicorn flight officers out there, but the reg doesn't make it explicit.

The way I'm interpreting the CAP cutout regs, it seems that they were used with BDU's, and the intent was to phase them out with ABU's but that was not made explicitly clear with a phase-out date.

We exist.  My weeble in my signature started as a TFO. 

"Officers" applies to all types unless otherwise specified.  Vanguard needs to remove "TFO" and "SFO" from the options on the cloth patch order page, to prevent confusion and errors.  They didn't even include "FO" in the options.