Flight Commanders in Squadron Line Formation

Started by Capt Thompson, August 28, 2020, 05:26:27 pm

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Capt Thompson

Trying to polish up opening and closing formation and I'm running into an issue I can't find the answer to. In Squadron line formation, once the 1st Sgt gives the report to the CC, upon dropping his/her salute the flight commanders move up and take their places 6 paces in front of their flights, the 1st Sgt moves to the rear of the formation.

What I can't find in either CAPP 60-33 or AFMAN 36-2203, where exactly do the flight commanders stand while the flight sergeants are in front of the formation, prior to the 1st Sgt calling post and then giving the report to the commander?

QuoteAFMAN 36-2203 5.3.6. Flight commanders immediately take their posts after the first sergeant has reported
(Figure 5.2.).

Also, where does the Cadet Deputy Commander stand in the formation?

Going through my old Army D&C, the Army is very clear on where everyone stands, but the Air Force seems to have the deputy absent, and the flight commanders seemingly appear out of nowhere?
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

PHall

The current CAP Drill and Ceremonies reference is CAP Pamphlet 60-33 Dated 5 AUG 2016.

CAPP 60-33, 5 AUG 2016, Para. 5.3.6. Flight commanders immediately take their posts after the first sergeant has reported ( Figure 5.2 ). They position themselves to the rear or side of the flight, and march forward by the most direct route as soon as the first sergeant drops his/her salute. All flight commanders dress off the right flight commander.

baronet68

WIWAC (so this isn't necessarily the right way, it's just "a" way), the flight commanders would initially line up to the right of the last element leader.  As the flight sergeants post, the flight commanders would step forward and stand to the right of the first element leader.  When the first sergeant reported, the flight commanders would move forward to take their post.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

Capt Thompson

Quote from: PHall on August 28, 2020, 08:31:13 pmThe current CAP Drill and Ceremonies reference is CAP Pamphlet 60-33 Dated 5 AUG 2016.

CAPP 60-33, 5 AUG 2016, Para. 5.3.6. Flight commanders immediately take their posts after the first sergeant has reported ( Figure 5.2 ). They position themselves to the rear or side of the flight, and march forward by the most direct route as soon as the first sergeant drops his/her salute. All flight commanders dress off the right flight commander.
So back or side of the flight, dealer's choice? Seems very unmilitary to say stand here or there, wherever you want.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

PHall

The idea is to be able to go directly from wherever they're at to their position in front of the flight.
Next to the flight would enable you to do that. Behind the flight would add steps and complications.

SarDragon

At the risk of sounding facetious, I must say, "That's the way it's always been."

I have a copy of the 1967 version of the Leadership Laboratory, and the text from that and the current D&C manual match almost verbatim. The illustrations are also essentially the same.

Does that make it right? Not really. But, no one in the "head shed" seems interested enough to address these questions.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Capt Thompson

Maybe I'm overthinking it, which is most likely the case. Rather than saying to the rear or side of the flight and then leaving them off of the chart, it seems they would pick one or the other for consistency and put their symbol on the chart.

In Army drill (I realize this isn't the Army) the Platoon Sergeant stands 6 paces in front of the Platoon, the Platoon Leader stands 1 pace behind. When the 1st Sgt calls Post, the two switch places, marching around the Platoon in a clockwise direction, the Platoon Leader taking the spot 6 paces in front of the Platoon, the Platoon Sergeant 1 pace behind. It's clean, everyone has a spot.

I always find it interesting that the Air Force took Army drill and changed it around just slightly here and there. Most movements are identical, with slight variations here and there just to be able to say it's not Army drill anymore.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 29, 2020, 12:43:04 am
Quote from: PHall on August 28, 2020, 08:31:13 pmThe current CAP Drill and Ceremonies reference is CAP Pamphlet 60-33 Dated 5 AUG 2016.

CAPP 60-33, 5 AUG 2016, Para. 5.3.6. Flight commanders immediately take their posts after the first sergeant has reported ( Figure 5.2 ). They position themselves to the rear or side of the flight, and march forward by the most direct route as soon as the first sergeant drops his/her salute. All flight commanders dress off the right flight commander.
So back or side of the flight, dealer's choice? Seems very unmilitary to say stand here or there, wherever you want.
While the first sergeant is reporting there is no designation for flight commanders due to one simple fact, and it's non unmilitary. In fact it's the opposite of unmilitary.

It's because they are not yet in the formation. They don't join the formation until the first sergeant departs from the reporting position. When they move into position, they are only then in the formation dnd from that point on they are shown on the chart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

PHall

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 29, 2020, 02:31:56 amI always find it interesting that the Air Force took Army drill and changed it around just slightly here and there. Most movements are identical, with slight variations here and there just to be able to say it's not Army drill anymore.

The Air Force does not drill after BMT and Tech School. The Air Force Drill and Ceremonies manual is written by the MTI's at Lackland and it's pretty much focused on what they do at Lackland. They even say that in the manual.
The thing is, there are no "Flight Commanders" at BMT. The MTI's operate as the "Flight Sergeant".

lordmonar

The issue....is that it does not matter where they stand....because they are NOT in formation yet.

They need to be conveniently placed so they can appear on cue....but they just need to be out of the way doing officer stuff.


PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Are we done here?

Three - two - one ...

Click.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret