October 24, 2020, 11:30:27 am

Qual/Validation Approval Path

Started by UWONGO2, July 16, 2020, 10:33:28 pm

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UWONGO2

So we're having an issue with some flight qualifications and I can't find any documentation in eServices which indicates the path a qualification takes to get approved. We have a squadron commander who saw a G1000 qualification appear in the Approvals/Validations portion in eServices. About an hour later, they were gone.

The assumption is someone at wing approved it, but I've been told by wing folks that nothing appears in their queue until the commander approves it.

Does anyone have the flowchart on how quals and validations work in eServices?

Spam

My perspective as a recent Wing Vice:

- Member (or SET evaluator) makes a final input on a SQTR and a SET evaluator approves it
- SET designated evaluator clicks "approve"
- Squadron level CC or DO has permissions to review and approve/deny
- If approved, it routes to the Group CC and Group DO for review/approval/denial
- If approved, it routes to the Wing CC/CV/DO for review/approval/denial

At Group and Wing, the smart commanders and their deputies/vices read and monitor, but leave the decisions to their Ops staff. Where judgement calls are controversial (e.g. rejecting a SQTR because all of an initial qual was done in one day) the commanders need to be aware of and back up their DO, OR, step in to adjust to realign with the regulations and their Commanders Intent.

In your case, where a G1000 qual showed at unit level, someone had to have taken an action to send it to Group/Wing, or, alternatively, to delete it. If your local CC no longer sees it as pending, he should check locally with his DO/DOS, and with the member to see if it was withdrawn/cancelled. In practical terms, if someone sees it showing in yellow as "PENDING", hover your mouse over the task and wait... it should drive a popup which will indicate who last took an action on it, by name. Could be, someone at unit or Group level fat fingered the wrong button and cancelled it in error.

Respectfully Submitted (R/s)
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UWONGO2

So I talked with our wing's ops expert and this is how he explained it to me.

Validations are visible at all three levels as soon as they hit the queue: unit, group, and wing. They do not proceed up the chain of command, but unit can only see those validations from their unit, group can only see those from within their group, and wing can see the whole wing.

So if a validations gets dumped into the queue and someone at wing happens to see it first, click and it's been validated. If someone at the unit sees it first, click and it's been validated and nobody at wing will even know it was in there.

Qualifications are treated differently, they do proceed up the chain of command to wing for final approval because the person is awarded the qualification. Someone at wing won't see there a pending qualification at the unit level, so they can't snipe it from wing.

Does this sound right? The complete lack of documentation in eServices in how these things are handled are frustrating. I'm thinking I need to get a group of members together who are from different levels (unit/group/wing) and push some validations through just to see who can see what.

Spam


Task validation is indeed person-specific. I had someone submit a raft of their tasks to me recently out of left field, which we had not discussed let alone witnessed them perform to task/condition/standard. I politely rejected the attempted validation with the comment that although they'd a batch of real world expertise, I still needed to have due diligence take place. We've subsequently had a good conversation on doing it right, and that I'd put him in, once he met the grade. 


My point: when these transactions are fully visible/auditable to all, that tends to reduce any tendencies for quid pro quo/this for that favors and pencil whipping (in my opinion). I've had people test me when I was newly in a command slot (at Sqdn, Group and above), not realizing that all their inputs were visible to the chain, and that led to some Adult Conversations about trying to pull a fast one on the new guy... As Gorbachev said "Glasnost" (openness)!
 

So, on Quals though, regardless of unit, if a member has pending quals, it should show up in yellow as pending, and you should be able to hover your mouse over the submitted task (or qualification) to see who approved and routed it, or who denied it, with any comments they chose to enter. At least, that was my experience when I was approving and, rarely, returning for further action. That audit trail is retained for quality assurance. 


I think that a PENDING status (for a package awaiting Group review/action) is visible from Wing, but that does not of course mean that anyone further up the chain even has the option active to reject it. I don't think they do... its in the "inbox" at Group, and is locked for Wing inputs until it is sent either on, or back.

V/r
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UWONGO2

When you say, "person-specific", what do you mean? I'm still trying to get a handle on the visibility of a squadron member's task validation hitting the queue - who can see it? Can someone from wing snipe it before the squadron commander looks at it?

The auditing of approvals is a bit of a mess, there are some mouse-over pop-ups when looking at flight qualifications, I've noticed only one name is listed, suggesting task validation can be done at the unit level and wing never sees it.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: UWONGO2 on July 20, 2020, 09:31:53 pmWhen you say, "person-specific", what do you mean? I'm still trying to get a handle on the visibility of a squadron member's task validation hitting the queue - who can see it? Can someone from wing snipe it before the squadron commander looks at it?

The auditing of approvals is a bit of a mess, there are some mouse-over pop-ups when looking at flight qualifications, I've noticed only one name is listed, suggesting task validation can be done at the unit level and wing never sees it.

Task validation is only visible to the person whose CAPID is put in as the purported SET.

Qualification validation upon completion of all tasks is visible to all command levels at the squadron level. Once approved there, it goes up to group if applicable, than wing.

There are some custom qualifications that may require higher than wing approvals, but if so I don't know what they are.

Spam

Pattern here has it exactly.

Say you and I go out together with you as Trainee and me as SET for a specialty. Usually, I'll keep a paper record and will enter them online for your CAPID, myself (no action on your part, and the updated/passed tasks appear on your record showing me as the evaluator approving (anyone can cursor over the task, and will see a popup to show who/when you passed).

Some people do it the other way around: you the trainee enter your tasks manually with my CAPID, 115xxx, and hit "enter".  That pending task should be visible to only you and me, is what I'm saying by "person-specific".

Say you enter one too many (one we didn't go over). I'll have to reject that but there won't be a record that I did so (no harm no foul, try again later).

Once you and I get them all done - I click SUBMIT, and the entire SQTR turns yellow status, and gets put in the unit commanders/unit DO's inbox for them to review and approve/reject, thence up the chain in turn as described.


So hey, don't get hung up on "sniping"! I don't think thats even possible once it is in the unit CC/DOs inboxes for action! If it gets sent back from Wing (or Group) you'll see who did that (or who personally approved it).

Cheers
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kcebnaes

Quote from: Holding Pattern on July 20, 2020, 10:07:10 pmTask validation is only visible to the person whose CAPID is put in as the purported SET.


See, I don't know about that part. As the Region/DOU, I have access to see ALL validations and approvals-from the unit level on up on the OPs side only. They all pop up in my approval queue. I do not know however if I have the ability to approve or anything (I won't touch them unless asked to by the powers that be.")
Sean Beck, Maj, CAP
Great Lakes Region sUAS Officer
Various Other Thingsā„¢

Spam

Quote from: kcebnaes on July 21, 2020, 02:19:20 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on July 20, 2020, 10:07:10 pmTask validation is only visible to the person whose CAPID is put in as the purported SET.


See, I don't know about that part. As the Region/DOU, I have access to see ALL validations and approvals-from the unit level on up on the OPs side only. They all pop up in my approval queue. I do not know however if I have the ability to approve or anything (I won't touch them unless asked to by the powers that be.")

I stand corrected - thanks!

Should you ever actually intervene, however, the system should log that you did so, preserving the audit trace, I would surmise.

V/r
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Eclipse

^ This is the part I don't understand, when I was DOS, I would see everything, but I don't recall being
alerted unless it was at the Wing level (email notifications have been an ongoing problem with eservices and
very inconsistent).

I recall though that I could always hover or otherwise check who had done what to a task or qual.