July 04, 2020, 12:21:14 pm

PD Aggravation

Started by murphey, May 13, 2020, 08:44:24 pm

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murphey

May 13, 2020, 08:44:24 pm Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 08:55:01 pm by murphey
I'm in a Senior squadron that admits its almost exclusively an Emergency flying squadron. Last December I attended a CLC course. It still doesn't appear in eServices. Emailed the PD Officer, no response. It's the only item I need to advance to Level III. Any suggestions? Going outside/over/around the chain of command doesn't bother me in the least. Altho I officially belong to the squadron, I spend most of my efforts at the Region level.

thanks

Eclipse

Contact the director of the CLC and ask if the Form 11 was send to NHQ and
if others have received credit.  It possible instead of going to NHQ it was sent / kept
at Wing and never processed.

It might also have had an incorrect CAPID for you.

Your Unit PDO isn't going to be able to do anything about this other then ask which
just adds another link in the telephone game.



murphey

Unfortunately, the director of the CLC is the PD officer. I'm about to contact the wing PD but wanted to give the squadron PD a chance to deal with it.

etodd

Emailed more than once? Make sure you email to the actual email address he uses and checks. Wing IT folks have a tendency to try and keep giving us email addresses for every job we have (gave me three so far), and I keep telling them I only check and use one.

My advice, pick up the phone and talk with him. Get him to tell you the next step.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

Quote from: murphey on May 13, 2020, 08:56:13 pmUnfortunately, the director of the CLC is the PD officer. I'm about to contact the wing PD but wanted to give the squadron PD a chance to deal with it.

I'd guess that is the issue - the F11 needs to be signed by the Wing CC,
either the Wing PDO never got it, or it died on that desk.

I'd just contact the Wing staffer, if you don't get an answer in a reasonable time,
contact the COS. The form should have been sent up within a day or two of the class,
if not the same day, with credit posted by the end of that week. 5+ months is unacceptable.



TheSkyHornet

Unfortunately, this is not uncommon. I've come across this with a number of individuals.

I'm a stickler for checking this stuff on my own profile. If I attend a PD course, I'm checking daily for two weeks to see when it gets added. If it doesn't get up there within a reasonable time, I'm contact the Course Director. If I don't get a response back within a responsible time, I'm sending another email, and I'm copying in Wing PD and the Chief of Staff.

If you attended the course, you deserve credit. It's that simple.


Holding Pattern

Step 1. Your Squadron Commander. Give him a month to fix it.
Step 2. Your group or wing commander.
Step 3. IG.

CAP9907

Quote from: Holding Pattern on May 13, 2020, 10:12:07 pmStep 1. Your Squadron Commander. Give him a month to fix it.
Step 2. Your group or wing commander.
Step 3. IG.

IG?? Whatever for?

~9907
21 yrs of service

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Eclipse

Seriously, there's no grounds for a complaint here, and there's no
reason to wait another month for the CC (they've all had 5).

Just call the Wing PDO and move on, ultimately it's his literal job.



PHall

Quote from: etodd on May 13, 2020, 09:14:56 pmEmailed more than once? Make sure you email to the actual email address he uses and checks. Wing IT folks have a tendency to try and keep giving us email addresses for every job we have (gave me three so far), and I keep telling them I only check and use one.

Have the two you don't normally check automatically forward to the one you do check.
If you don't know how to do it your Wing IT folks should be able to help you.

Eclipse

Office-specific email addresses should be alias', not full mailboxes.

Tell your IT people to makes the changes instead of just not checking them.



Phil Hirons, Jr.

Murphey, did you take SLS close in time to CLC?

I used to be Wing PD and I saw several times where NHQ did not post CLC because the CLC F11 was in the pile before the SLS one and they started enforcing that you had to have SLS credit to get CLC credit. So when they processed the CLC you did not have the pre-req and when they got to SLS the CLC form was a done deal.

In other words everyone could have done everything correctly and it did not sequence correctly. Having the Wing PD  re-submit the CLC F11 with a note will generally get it fixed.

Eclipse

Another issue is if you have no specialty tracks assigned you can't get credit for either SLS or CLC
and then it has to be manually resubmitted once that's fixed.



Holding Pattern

Quote from: CAP9907 on May 13, 2020, 10:31:03 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on May 13, 2020, 10:12:07 pmStep 1. Your Squadron Commander. Give him a month to fix it.
Step 2. Your group or wing commander.
Step 3. IG.

IG?? Whatever for?

~9907

Waste, potential fraud if he paid for the class.

Eclipse




Phil Hirons, Jr.

Purely as an Academic Exercise

Yes this could be an IG Complaint. No one can deny a member from filing a complaint. I am NOT suggesting this course of action.

Hypothetically and based on the limited information provided, complaint analysis would result in a resolution strategy of assistance.

FROM CAPR 20-2
QuoteAssist. An IG assist is the process of making phone calls, asking questions, or soliciting helpful
information from appropriate offices or agencies or putting complainants in touch with people, offices or
agencies that can address their concerns. Assistance is used when there is no evidence or assertion of
personal wrongdoing by a CAP member. Assistance is the IG giving aid or support to quickly resolve a
member's real or perceived problem. Once the assist is complete, the case will be closed in SoR and noted
as an assist

As in IG calls PD and says this guy took CLC 5 months ago and has not gotten credit and now can't get Level III. Could you find out what's holding this up and fix it?

This concludes the Academic Exercise


Fubar

What an IG is and what an IG does might be the two most misunderstood things about CAP.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on May 14, 2020, 01:50:11 pmPurely as an Academic Exercise

Yes this could be an IG Complaint. No one can deny a member from filing a complaint. I am NOT suggesting this course of action.

Hypothetically and based on the limited information provided, complaint analysis would result in a resolution strategy of assistance.

FROM CAPR 20-2
QuoteAssist. An IG assist is the process of making phone calls, asking questions, or soliciting helpful
information from appropriate offices or agencies or putting complainants in touch with people, offices or
agencies that can address their concerns. Assistance is used when there is no evidence or assertion of
personal wrongdoing by a CAP member. Assistance is the IG giving aid or support to quickly resolve a
member's real or perceived problem. Once the assist is complete, the case will be closed in SoR and noted
as an assist

As in IG calls PD and says this guy took CLC 5 months ago and has not gotten credit and now can't get Level III. Could you find out what's holding this up and fix it?

This concludes the Academic Exercise



I should also point out that in terms of where to use the IG I only suggested that as an option when one's command elements have been fully exhausted first.

Eclipse

Quote from: Holding Pattern on May 14, 2020, 05:00:01 pmI should also point out that in terms of where to use the IG I only suggested that as an option when one's command elements have been fully exhausted first.

Fair enough - you made an incorrect suggestion and it's good that it's been pointed out.

"I didn't get my CLC credit." Isn't grounds for an FWA complaint (or any other) just because you
dropped $5 on donuts for the class breakfast.

For those of you scoring at home, FWA involves depriving the corporation of an asset or resource
though commission or omission.  It has nothing to do with member grievances or related command or staff failings.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/cap-national-hq/inspector-general/fraud-waste-and-abuse



Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: Fubar on May 14, 2020, 04:56:42 pmWhat an IG is and what an IG does might be the two most misunderstood things about CAP.

And as IGs we are supposed to try to educate the membership on the programs and processes. I took a while to decide to say anything but I think the educational opportunity was a good one.

murphey

May 21, 2020, 05:14:39 pm #20 Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 05:17:48 pm by murphey
Quote from: Eclipse on May 13, 2020, 10:34:02 pmSeriously, there's no grounds for a complaint here, and there's no
reason to wait another month for the CC (they've all had 5).

Just call the Wing PDO and move on, ultimately it's his literal job.

Took the SLS years ago, so there shouldn't be any paperwork issues.
Another couple items I've noticed are missing - attendance at both wing conference and national conference. Unfortunately, the Admin person during this time has moved out of state and the only proof of attendance are the credit card receipts.

Still no response from course director/squadron PDO, over a week.
Contacted the Wing PDO 4 days ago with no response.
After the holiday, will contact the COS if I've heard nothing else.

murphey

An update. The casual note to Wing PDO definitely got action. Level 3 officially signed off as of first week of June.

The real issue - why did I have to ping the wing? Why wasn't the paperwork handled properly 5 months ago?

arajca

Some wings require the forms to be sent to wing and wing sends them to National. Possibly, that's where the hang up was. Of course, this is only a guess.

Fubar

Quote from: murphey on June 15, 2020, 02:06:50 amThe real issue - why did I have to ping the wing? Why wasn't the paperwork handled properly 5 months ago?

Perhaps because this organization is comprised of volunteers of various levels of capability?

THRAWN

Quote from: Fubar on June 15, 2020, 03:17:35 am
Quote from: murphey on June 15, 2020, 02:06:50 amThe real issue - why did I have to ping the wing? Why wasn't the paperwork handled properly 5 months ago?

Perhaps because this organization is comprised of volunteers of various levels of capability?

Ah, the good old "we're just volunteers" shrug off. If you cannot do the job, vacate it. Don't hose up other people because of incompetence. If your house burned down would you pat the firefighters on the noggin and say, "It's okay, you're just a volunteer"? Nope. You'd be rightfully annoyed. Just like the OP. Volunteer shouldn't equal sloppy inefficiency.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

NIN

^^ this.

Another thing that we put up with, that I swear we shouldn't but we do, is there is a tendency to avoid making changes when volunteers aren't accomplishing the job that they signed up to do.

So Lt Col Missing stops doing the job he signed up for, or only does 30% of it, and everybody just kind of shrugs their shoulders and goes "well I mean he is a volunteer. What do they expect?" or my all-time favorite "But he's been doing that job for years, what else are we going to do?"

And yet here is Lt Col Missing still on the duty roster, still assigned to the job, still not doing the job that he signed up for, and nothing's getting done. Certainly this often gets addressed right around CI time at the wing level, when people scramble around and try to fill in the holes where somebody just isn't doing all of the work or isn't completing the documentation correctly. No matter what, it's still a problem.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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Fubar

Quote from: THRAWN on June 15, 2020, 10:56:32 am
Quote from: Fubar on June 15, 2020, 03:17:35 am
Quote from: murphey on June 15, 2020, 02:06:50 amThe real issue - why did I have to ping the wing? Why wasn't the paperwork handled properly 5 months ago?

Perhaps because this organization is comprised of volunteers of various levels of capability?

Ah, the good old "we're just volunteers" shrug off. If you cannot do the job, vacate it. Don't hose up other people because of incompetence. If your house burned down would you pat the firefighters on the noggin and say, "It's okay, you're just a volunteer"? Nope. You'd be rightfully annoyed. Just like the OP. Volunteer shouldn't equal sloppy inefficiency.

Ok, replace "volunteers" with "people" and my statement describes every organization I've worked for, so being a volunteer has nothing to do with it. Although I admittedly cut volunteers more slack when it comes to the time it takes to accomplish some tasks given few people can devote 40 hours a week to CAP. How much slack is given is a personal choice to be sure (and probably dependent on the task as well), but I do wish we all gave our fellow volunteers a little more benefit of the doubt.

In every volunteer organization I've been in the incompetent people are very difficult to replace because most of the time, there's nobody to replace them.

Eclipse

Quote from: Fubar on June 15, 2020, 03:25:38 pmIn every volunteer organization I've been in the incompetent people are very difficult to replace because most of the time, there's nobody to replace them.

This.

For better or worse that is one of CAP's biggest issues, if not possibly the core of its problems.

With that said, why Commanders continue to appoint and allow people who have a Master Rating in the
"Impediment Specialty" to be a pain their own festerous is beyond me.

Unless there is a regulatory requirement that the job be filled by a different CAP ID, there isn't a unit, or Wingin this organization that has the PD turnover that it can't just be the CC when no one else will do it.



ZigZag911

While not FWA, this could reasonably be referred to the IG once chain of command,course director and relevant staff officersince have been  contacted and unresponsive.

In cases like this, it's worth remembering that the IG is a resource outside the chain of command.  Contacting the IG is not breaking the chain of command. The IG can cut through the fog, talk directly to people and ensure that information gets to those who need it.

Most calls to an IG don't result in an investigation. In fact, the goal is to resolve problems as simply as possible,  getting everyone in compliance with CAP  regulations and procedures.

In an instance like this one, the IG would probably realize that Lt Col Missing (as Col Niness dubbed him!) might run a terrific CLC but needed help with administrative support.  Or it might be a lapse at wing staff following up on filing of the Form 11.

An experienced IG would let the wing commanderknow about the systemic problem,  and  ideally would suggest possible solutions.

It's not about affixing blame. Rather, the point is providing facts to the commander,  facts that can help identify difficulties and lead to a  better CAP experience for members.

Eclipse

I don't agree with this.

Involving an IG, outside a complaint, is just going to rile feathers and raise
questions unnecessarily.

Outside their role as fact-finders in specifically assigned situations,
they have no role or authority, and are not the "Secret Police of CAP",
nor are they empowered to just go "poking around" sans an assignment.
This is the kind of stuff that causes the wives tales about the IGs.

At most, there are 3 people in the Command chain at the Wing level, if they can't
get these things done with a phone call, then why would the IG have better luck?

And if you're saying a unit CC is not empowered to call a Wing CC direct when things
aren't happening, then you're pointing out more of the actual problem.



Fubar

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 15, 2020, 06:10:55 pmThe IG can cut through the fog, talk directly to people and ensure that information gets to those who need it.

This is not the job of an IG. Using them to route around communication failures is in fact breaking the chain of command.

That's not to say breaking the chain of command isn't at times effective, just be aware there could be negative consequences.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

I quoted CAPR 20-2's definition of the Assist resolution of a complaint below. ZigZag's fog quote is in line with that definition IMHO. 

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Fubar on June 15, 2020, 07:39:14 pm
Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 15, 2020, 06:10:55 pmThe IG can cut through the fog, talk directly to people and ensure that information gets to those who need it.

This is not the job of an IG. Using them to route around communication failures is in fact breaking the chain of command.

That's not to say breaking the chain of command isn't at times effective, just be aware there could be negative consequences.

Retaliation is covered by the regs.

Eclipse

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on June 15, 2020, 09:34:48 pmI quoted CAPR 20-2's definition of the Assist resolution of a complaint below. ZigZag's fog quote is in line with that definition IMHO. 

"Complaint" being the key word, which is a formal process, not a phone call, and in the context of this
discussion doesn't exist (yet).



Fubar

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on June 15, 2020, 09:34:48 pmI quoted CAPR 20-2's definition of the Assist resolution of a complaint below. ZigZag's fog quote is in line with that definition IMHO. 

That exists in the regulation to deal with people who bring issues to the IG that aren't intended for the IG program. I don't think recommending people go talk to the IG about non-IG matters simply because there is a mechanism to pawn off non-IG matters is consistent with the purpose of the IG program, but I can't argue the logic can be followed.

I did a stint on the IG team for several years, the amount of time that was wasted on non-IG matters was maddening. The IG isn't there to referee every time you don't get your way or think something is taking longer than it should. The IG is there for issues of fraud (hey, where did our money go?), waste (I really don't think the prop need gold plating), or abuse (you can't do that because it says so in this regulation). The box on the CAPF 20 where complainants are supposed to list the regulations that were violated where often humorous. They either skipped the box, tried shoehorn CAPR 1-1 into everything (my commander disagreed with me and agreed with someone I don't like, therefore he/she is unethical) and on a couple of occasions, made up regulations.

It stinks that our fellow volunteers often fail each other, lack of followthrough or ability being the two most common issues I've run into. I get it, it's annoying, especially if it's for something important (you promised to teach and there are 100 cadets sitting here looking for you). No matter how annoying it is though, it's rarely an IG issue.

Fubar

Quote from: Holding Pattern on June 15, 2020, 09:45:37 pmRetaliation is covered by the regs.

True, but there is a difference between discipline and retaliation.

Getting harassed for reporting someone for violating a specific regulations to the IG? Definitely bad.

Getting a talking to because you skipped around your chain of command by contacting the IG to complain about something you don't like to ensure that the wing commander hears about it? Not retaliation and should be expected.

Hey, most of this wouldn't be an issue if there weren't so many opportunities for someone to drop a ball. We should be reducing the administrative burden by leveraging technology as much as possible, unfortunately CAP struggles mightily in that area for a number of reasons.

I suppose I should really add the disclaimer in here that if you're not sure if something is an IG issue or not, obviously contact the IG to be sure. I don't want to scare anyone away from reporting actual IG issues.

ZigZag911

Actually, the whole idea of the Assist process is to avoid a formal complaint  if possible. The focus is getting problems solved and people working together.

I am not suggesting that IGs self deploy, in fact, my suggestion envisioned the member reaching out to the IG.

However, the IG role is defined as serving as the eyes and ears of the commander. Being observant isn't poking around, nor is pointing out problems a Secret Police function.

The IG doesn't have command authority, but, like any staff officer, has the inherent delegated authority to do the job assigned by the commander.

There is a tendency among some on CAP Talk to view the IG program negatively.

That's their privilege...but also their opinion. The mere fact that anyone here flatly declares something makes it neither fact nor policy, simply an indinitial interpretation.

In some respects, the IG can serve as an ombudsman. Ultimately this often prevents formal complaints for minor matters, which soak up time, resources and energy.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Assist is an option of complaint resolution. It is an alternative to investigation (and others). As you said IGs don't self deploy.

1. Complaint filed.
2. Complaint analysis recommends assist.
3. Legal confirms.
4. Command approves.
5. Assistance rendered, case closed.

In the example that started this thread it appears that the regulation concerning a Professional Development class may not have been followed. To paraphrase below you did not do that and the regulation requires it.


SarDragon

Problem stated; suggestions made; problem solved.

Thread closed.
Dave Bowles
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