May 30, 2020, 02:27:58 am

Virtual training

Started by exarmyguard, May 09, 2020, 05:46:30 pm

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

exarmyguard

Other than the virtual conferences and UAS training (which is outstanding), are there other virtual opportunities out there?

I'd like to use my downtime wisely, which is why I hope virtual training will be a permanent fixture for CAP.

Thank you and be safe.

Eclipse

You should be checking in with your unit CC and unit / wing PDO.

The majority of adult PD is being offered all over the country via
virtual means - SLS/CLC/UCC/TLC, even RSC and Wing Conferences.

Also, most units are starting to scramble for compelling meeting content
and are scouring the corners for ES tasks that can be accomplished virtually

This information should be coming down through channels.



etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2020, 05:55:15 pmThis information should be coming down through channels.

Some of this is happening so quickly. Someone in a Squadron will be willing to host a zoom course on XZY starting "this Monday". Squadron gets excited. Someone sends out an email Saturday inviting the whole Wing to join in. Then someones decides other Wings could join to and so Sunday night Facebook lights up with invitations on other Wing pages.

I'm not sure the NATCAP marketing and PR department, and the national website, is setup for disseminating all these spur of the moment online programs. They are accustomed to having something planned out 3 months ahead of time.

If a volunteer says they have time to teach something "next week", we need to be able to take advantage of it and not ask them to wait weeks or months.

Its the New CAP. Many that I have logged into are not even requiring uniforms. And those that do, all you see is the shirt. ;)

The sUAS training was mentioned above. Its the DOu of the Maryland Wing hosting it. Started with a handful of folks locally on zoom several weeks ago. Now its averaging 95-100 members each night, representing 20-30 Wings.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

Strong non-concur.

Just because someone says they want to teach a "thing", doesn't mean they should be,
or even know what they are talking about.

Local units should be looking to train their own people, under the command, control,
and evaluation of local staff.

You can't "train" 95-100 people in a Zoom meeting.  You can host the meeting
and have 95-100 people sitting quietly, with 2/3rds watching a movie in another
tab, expecting credit.



exarmyguard

Could there be a spot here in the forum to act as a place to post such virtual trainings?

Spam

Also dont use Zoom.

;D

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2020, 08:38:59 pmYou can't "train" 95-100 people in a Zoom meeting.  You can host the meeting
and have 95-100 people sitting quietly, with 2/3rds watching a movie in another
tab, expecting credit.

Yep. Sorta like the in-person all day powerpoints, where half the people are daydreaming as enjoy their coffee and donuts. Speak a couple syllables before and after lunch, and get credit.  Its the CAP way.  It is what it is. :)
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

^ No, it's not.  At least not with qualified instructors.

People who know how to teach adults can watch for the wall huggers
and engage them in non-confrontational ways.  You can do that
with a virtual class of the same reasonable size a unit training
session would be, say 8-10 people, because it's possible to be able to watch them
in the Hollywood Squares and know who is with you.

You can't do that with 100 people. Not online, not in person.

CAP has made significant progress moving training to more interactive
sessions and much less DBPPt, but it still isn't great at choosing
instructors because often it's done using presence as the key delimiter.



exarmyguard

I hope I don't offend with my opinion, however, I think distance learning is the way to go. For example, the army is heavily into online and distance learning with positive results.

Personally, I have a family, busy work schedule, etc and appreciate being able to learn in the comfort of my home. I'm not inclined to be distracted because I enjoy the topics offered by CAP as would be other members. Just my two cents.

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2020, 11:58:19 pm..... but it still isn't great at choosing
instructors because often it's done using presence as the key delimiter.

Yep. A Wing or especially a Group, has a very small number of people who might be both qualified in the subject, and also a dynamic speaker/instructor who can keep people awake, interested, and excited about tuning in the next session.

But think in terms of nationwide, or region areas. And the available number of great instructors increases. Seek these out and let them teach nationwide.

So convenient as well. Sit here in my comfy office, and not worrying about clothing choices either. Its all about the topic at hand. :)
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

"Seeking them out" (which is what the PD directorate is currently doing to
somewhat slow response as I understand it) is not the same as someone
randomly standing up and deciding they are going to present a class which may,
or may not, be appropriate in regards to content, policy, or both and then
setting them up to present to a national audience that is well beyond reasonable span of control.

That's why it's called "standardized" training.

You have no idea what some people will say or do when they decide to "hold a class".
BTDT.



JohhnyD

Quote from: Spam on May 09, 2020, 10:55:20 pmAlso dont use Zoom.

;D
Don't use FREE Zoom. The paid version has great security.

JohhnyD

Quote from: exarmyguard on May 10, 2020, 01:17:38 amI hope I don't offend with my opinion, however, I think distance learning is the way to go. For example, the army is heavily into online and distance learning with positive results.

Personally, I have a family, busy work schedule, etc and appreciate being able to learn in the comfort of my home. I'm not inclined to be distracted because I enjoy the topics offered by CAP as would be other members. Just my two cents.
Your opinion is welcome, even when others disagree. In this case, you are spot on, so fire for effect!

AirDX

Quote from: etodd on May 09, 2020, 10:57:01 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2020, 08:38:59 pmYou can't "train" 95-100 people in a Zoom meeting.  You can host the meeting
and have 95-100 people sitting quietly, with 2/3rds watching a movie in another
tab, expecting credit.

Yep. Sorta like the in-person all day powerpoints, where half the people are daydreaming as enjoy their coffee and donuts. Speak a couple syllables before and after lunch, and get credit.  Its the CAP way.  It is what it is. :)

CAP way? Heck, it was that way in the Army, the FAA, and the Air Force over some 30 years of my life...
Believe in fate, but lean forward where fate can see you.

Spam

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
Quote from: Spam on May 09, 2020, 10:55:20 pmAlso dont use Zoom.

;D
Don't use FREE Zoom. The paid version has great security.
If you trust the PRC.

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
Quote from: Spam on May 09, 2020, 10:55:20 pmAlso dont use Zoom.

;D
Don't use FREE Zoom. The paid version has great security.

Where did you get this idea?



1st Lt Thompson

A few thoughts, for what they are worth....

As a former SET (just got back from a leave and need to renew quals), Eclipse is right in that tasks shouldn't be signed off on Zoom, they need to be physically demonstrated. I have seen instances where after training, a member may demonstrate the task and record a video to send to the SET if in-person verification (right now) isn't possible, but merely signing off because they were present in Zoom shouldn't happen under "normal" circumstances.

With that said, I still took part in the DEWG sUAS training, took notes, absorbed what knowledge I could, and am very thankful for Lt Panko and Lt Col Robertson and the others who put the course on.

Yes, it's possible that someone sat through 30+ hourse of sUAS training while binging Game of Thrones on another screen and absorbed absolutely none of the content. I hope not, but sure it's possible.

With that said, per 70-1U:

Quote from: undefined6.2.1 All CAP sUAS Mission Pilots must complete the NESA Advanced sUAS Pilot Course (or CAP/DO, DOU approved equivalent).

6.2.2 All CAP sUAS Technicians must complete the NESA sUAS Technician Course (or CAP/DO, DOU approved equivalent).

So even if they sat through all of that training, and didn't absorb any of it, they will still have to do a NESA or equivalent course to get their qualification, where every one of those tasks will be trained and verified again before completion of the course.

In all likelihood, of the 80-90 students who logged in each night, maybe a half dozen will go on to NESA, finish their Part 107, 6 FEMA courses and pass their 5U and 91U, so I'm not too concerned about the ones that weren't paying attention, they probably won't go any further than Zoom.

If nothing else, the program served to provide insight into the new program, and maybe spark enough interest to gain a half dozen new UASMP's, eventually.
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Historian, Assistant PAO

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)

JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2020, 08:22:09 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
Quote from: Spam on May 09, 2020, 10:55:20 pmAlso dont use Zoom.

;D
Don't use FREE Zoom. The paid version has great security.

Where did you get this idea?
My own research and that of my IT team. People paid to have opinions on this stuff, as opposed to old curmedgeons on internet bulletin boars maybe?

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 11:16:15 pmMy own research and that of my IT team. People paid to have opinions on this stuff, as opposed to old curmedgeons on internet bulletin boars maybe?

That's funny right there.



etodd

Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on May 10, 2020, 08:50:28 pmSo even if they sat through all of that training, and didn't absorb any of it, they will still have to do a NESA or equivalent course to get their qualification, where every one of those tasks will be trained and verified again before completion of the course.

If nothing else, the program served to provide insight into the new program, and maybe spark enough interest to gain a half dozen new UASMP's, eventually.


Your second comment is the huge part. The program is exploding with people wanting to dive in and learn. Its been fantastic from the marketing side.

The first points?  "equivalent course" ... is getting defined on a Wing basis now. YES, we are all using the same sUAS Mission Task Guides, the same F5u and F91u and SQTR forms, as well as the 70-1u guidelines. So the "standardization of knowledge" is all there. The whole program is setup totally to mimic the aircraft side. Local CFI and Check Pilots teaching a new pilot how to get through all the steps and checking them out as an aircraft Mission Pilot.  Same with drones now.  IOW ... nothing new, just a different aircraft.

As for "checking off tasks" .... as a sUAS Check Pilot, when someone shows up for actual flight training and shows me their SQTR Worksheet all filled out, I will at least know they have been exposed to everything ... but its a trust but verify situation. I will go back over the SQTR and more to make sure they actually know their stuff, before I sign them off as a Technician or Mission Pilot.

Again ... its just like the airplane side of CAP ... just a smaller aircraft. :)
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

arajca

Quote from: etodd on May 11, 2020, 12:24:59 amAs for "checking off tasks" .... as a sUAS Check Pilot, when someone shows up for actual flight training and shows me their SQTR Worksheet all filled out, I will at least know they have been exposed to everything ... but its a trust but verify situation. I will go back over the SQTR and more to make sure they actually know their stuff, before I sign them off as a Technician or Mission Pilot.

Again ... its just like the airplane side of CAP ... just a smaller aircraft. :)
So, you don't trust any other SETs and you're adding stuff to the standardized evaluation.

etodd

Quote from: arajca on May 11, 2020, 12:46:45 am
Quote from: etodd on May 11, 2020, 12:24:59 amAs for "checking off tasks" .... as a sUAS Check Pilot, when someone shows up for actual flight training and shows me their SQTR Worksheet all filled out, I will at least know they have been exposed to everything ... but its a trust but verify situation. I will go back over the SQTR and more to make sure they actually know their stuff, before I sign them off as a Technician or Mission Pilot.

Again ... its just like the airplane side of CAP ... just a smaller aircraft. :)
So, you don't trust any other SETs and you're adding stuff to the standardized evaluation.

Nah, you're looking for something not there.  I was responding to those who talk of things getting "signed off" just because they watched a Zoom presentation. Yes, if a SET signs off a task just because they attended, I will ask a few questions to make sure they know it.

The more ... would be the additional items on the F91u.

Again, just like the Cessna aircraft side.  I've had Check Pilots giving me an F91 in a Cessna ask me lots of things already signed off by another SET on the SQTR.  I look at it as a good thing. Don't you?
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

PHall

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 11:16:15 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2020, 08:22:09 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
Quote from: Spam on May 09, 2020, 10:55:20 pmAlso dont use Zoom.

;D
Don't use FREE Zoom. The paid version has great security.

Where did you get this idea?
My own research and that of my IT team. People paid to have opinions on this stuff, as opposed to old curmedgeons on internet bulletin boars maybe?

He works for the Department of Defense, they have an IT department too and their Cyber folks said don't use it period because there are security vulnerabilities.

etodd

Too late. Zoom has already been made commonplace in CAP. Countless Squadrons using it for meetings and people using it for training.

Maybe they'll all get viruses and bugs and spam. Then y'all can stand proudly and say "We told you so!"

Until then ... it's all falling on deaf ears. 🤷🏻‍♂️
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on May 11, 2020, 12:24:59 amI will go back over the SQTR and more to make sure they actually know their stuff, before I sign them off as a Technician or Mission Pilot.

Again ... its just like the airplane side of CAP ... just a smaller aircraft. :)
Quote from: PHall on May 11, 2020, 02:07:37 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 11:16:15 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2020, 08:22:09 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
Quote from: Spam on May 09, 2020, 10:55:20 pmAlso dont use Zoom.

;D
Don't use FREE Zoom. The paid version has great security.

Where did you get this idea?
My own research and that of my IT team. People paid to have opinions on this stuff, as opposed to old curmedgeons on internet bulletin boars maybe?

He works for the Department of Defense, they have an IT department too and their Cyber folks said don't use it period because there are security vulnerabilities.

That's not what he said, and I highly doubt anyone with sense in the DOD is using the
free version of Zoom for business.

I am no fan of Zoom, but there's no difference vulnerability-wise between the paid and the free versions.



Spam

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 11:16:15 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2020, 08:22:09 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
Quote from: Spam on May 09, 2020, 10:55:20 pmAlso dont use Zoom.

;D
Don't use FREE Zoom. The paid version has great security.

Where did you get this idea?
My own research and that of my IT team. People paid to have opinions on this stuff, as opposed to old curmedgeons on internet bulletin boars maybe?

I'm younger than you, if your Mitchell was 43 years ago. Not that age matters here, but you brought it up, Non Sequitur.

Spam

Quote from: arajca on May 11, 2020, 12:46:45 am
Quote from: etodd on May 11, 2020, 12:24:59 amAs for "checking off tasks" .... as a sUAS Check Pilot, when someone shows up for actual flight training and shows me their SQTR Worksheet all filled out, I will at least know they have been exposed to everything ... but its a trust but verify situation. I will go back over the SQTR and more to make sure they actually know their stuff, before I sign them off as a Technician or Mission Pilot.

Again ... its just like the airplane side of CAP ... just a smaller aircraft. :)
So, you don't trust any other SETs and you're adding stuff to the standardized evaluation.

Arajca, I'm reading that the same way you have, apparently.

That doesn't necessarily make him wrong, though. I've seen a very few submitted ratings show up at Wing in the DO's inbox with obviously pencil whipped dates for initial quals, and we've seen the occasional CAP news article about some "Ground Team in one weekend" event which immediately makes me reach to suspend some SET designations pending discussions. I've suspended SET designations before; its rare, thankfully, but part of a QC function.

I agree with him on this; any SET designated person who signs off people for being present at training (as opposed to demonstrating knowledge, skills, and abilities per the Task, Condition, and Standard, on an individual basis) needs to have their SET designation pulled, and their trainees need to redo the Task(s).

If we have people doing mass SQTR task sign offs on the basis of participation in an online meeting, thats absolutely non standard and a violation.

V/r
Spam

(see eTodd, I can agree with you)!

Paul Creed III

Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 11:16:15 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2020, 08:22:09 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on May 10, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
Quote from: Spam on May 09, 2020, 10:55:20 pmAlso dont use Zoom.

;D
Don't use FREE Zoom. The paid version has great security.

Where did you get this idea?
My own research and that of my IT team. People paid to have opinions on this stuff, as opposed to old curmedgeons on internet bulletin boars maybe?

Let's keep this civil please or the thread will be locked.
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
National Headquarters Cyber Curriculum Specialist
National Headquarters Photography Working Group

exarmyguard

Hi. Just to bring it back around, would it be a good idea to have a dedicated thread on virtual training opportunities throughout the nation? Thank you.

JohhnyD

Quote from: PHall on May 11, 2020, 02:07:37 amHe works for the Department of Defense, they have an IT department too and their Cyber folks said don't use it period because there are security vulnerabilities.
I get it. If we had security classification issues, I'd agree. We are talking about training on totally non-classified material. There are NO issues with the paid zoom that would preclude use for that purpose.

etodd

Quote from: Spam on May 11, 2020, 12:53:04 pmIf we have people doing mass SQTR task sign offs ...

Also keeping in mind that having a SQTR signed off (whether online or in person) for airplane Mission Pilot or sUAS Mission Pilot doesn't mean squat unto itself. You get no privileges from it. Its not until you work with a Check Pilot getting your F91 or F91u, that you get privileges.  The Check Pilot, in-person eval, is the QC, and the gate-keeper.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

1st Lt Thompson

Quote from: etodd on May 11, 2020, 06:19:49 pm
Quote from: Spam on May 11, 2020, 12:53:04 pmIf we have people doing mass SQTR task sign offs ...

Also keeping in mind that having a SQTR signed off (whether online or in person) for airplane Mission Pilot or sUAS Mission Pilot doesn't mean squat unto itself. You get no privileges from it. Its not until you work with a Check Pilot getting your F91 or F91u, that you get privileges.  The Check Pilot, in-person eval, is the QC, and the gate-keeper.
True, however, if a member shows up for a check ride, and it's obvious to the check pilot they have zero knowledge of the tasks that have been signed off for them, the SET will in most cases lose their SET status, so it's a big risk signing off a member who hasn't demonstrated proficiency in the task. For something with a check ride, the untrained member will never fly without the check pilot's ok. For other quals like ground team, there is no final check and if someone has everything signed off and shows up to two training missions, whether they know the stuff or not they will most likely get the qual, so signing off without verifying proficiency could be dangerous in some cases.
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Historian, Assistant PAO

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)

AirDX

Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2020, 05:55:15 pmThis information should be coming down through channels.

Should be, but it's not. CAP Talk is about the only CAP-wide info resource, and even it is spotty, depending on members. I as unit PDO am collecting open-source intel wherever I can.
Believe in fate, but lean forward where fate can see you.

exarmyguard

I'm looking for a virtual AP class, if anyone knows of one..

etodd

May 17, 2020, 03:15:40 am #34 Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 03:20:15 am by etodd
Quote from: exarmyguard on May 17, 2020, 01:40:11 amI'm looking for a virtual AP class, if anyone knows of one..

Not yet.  But you can start with the Task Guide.  Do not use the old 2011 outdated one on the CAP website. Not sure why they can't get around to changing it. Use the 'slightly' newer 2014 version here:

https://nesa.cap.gov/media/cms/Mission_Scanner_Task_Guides_Dec14_B_2A7B58F8A1ABB.pdf

Study the guide, then get with a local AP SET, to evaluate you on it and sign off the task items. Then you can get with the SET and a MP to fly your two sorties done.

This is how I've gotten everything you see in my sig.  I don't like waiting for months for 'classes' to open up. Get it done. :)
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot


Eclipse

Quote from: exarmyguard on May 17, 2020, 01:53:37 pmhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/brandonbusteed/2020/05/16/corporate-education-will-never-return-to-the-classroom/

An interesting read.

Totally agree, and it's not just education, this has forced business, education, and life
into moving in directions it's been pretending to pursue for 20 years.

It's shown that most things people cram themselves into a room for don't actually
require in-face presence, which in turn will fundamentally change those organizations,
and the nature of social interactions permanently.

A lot of companies are discussing having large portions of their corporate work force
never return permanently, which leaves a lot of commercial real estate sitting idle.

I would not want to be in the office rental business in 2021 when those leases come up.



exarmyguard

Again I hope I don't offend nor speak out of turn...

On YouTube, I've seen great videos on a few CAP topics that would make great training videos.

I've wondered why there hasn't been a push to create a body of professionally done training videos for distribution. There could be an exam at the end, maybe have it proctored.

Eclipse

Quote from: exarmyguard on May 17, 2020, 11:34:44 pmI've wondered why there hasn't been a push to create a body of professionally done training videos for distribution. There could be an exam at the end, maybe have it proctored.

Up until 'Ronaworld the tradition in CAP education and training has been in-face, classroom style.

This is as much because of the older curve of the adult membership and the tendency of the esteemed
adult members to cut corners and Parker 51 stuff because "I've been doing this for 30 years, etc."

It's been frustrating to say the least, but to be fair, CAP was never intended to be a correspondence
course either.

The new reality is changing that rapidly.



etodd

Quote from: exarmyguard on May 17, 2020, 11:34:44 pmI've wondered why there hasn't been a push to create a body of professionally done training videos for distribution. There could be an exam at the end, maybe have it proctored.

Yep. I've mentioned that in many threads, or was it FB? IDK.  Professional video production company, good script writers, professional standup and voice-over talent, good graphics/animation creator, etc.

CAP budget for one thing. The other is that CAP has always had this bad habit of wanting to keep most everything in-house.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

PHall

We've done videos in the past and they're very quickly are out of date.
Keeping training videos current is pretty much a full time job.
And as others have said we don't have the budget for that.
Heck even the military can't keep their training videos current and they have a lot more money then we have.

exarmyguard

May 18, 2020, 01:53:22 am #41 Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 02:10:29 am by exarmyguard
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. Enjoying the discussion immensely.

This video on MSA was a benefit to me. Enjoy.
https://youtu.be/bs2Z7TkEBo0

And ground team.
https://youtu.be/qy0LIhphnq4

1st Lt Thompson

Quote from: PHall on May 18, 2020, 01:26:01 amWe've done videos in the past and they're very quickly are out of date.
Keeping training videos current is pretty much a full time job.
And as others have said we don't have the budget for that.
Heck even the military can't keep their training videos current and they have a lot more money then we have.

CAP wouldn't put together a budget for something like this, it would take members with the time and talent to pull it off free of charge. Some videos would become out of date quickly, but others, like Ground Team tasks, don't get updated all that often, the current green book is from 2004 so any video on the topics made since would still be valid. Covering all of the tasks for a given qualification, in detail with video demonstration would take quite a bit of effort to pull off.
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Historian, Assistant PAO

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)

exarmyguard

I've purchased King School videos in the past and recently. I love their teaching style and extensive use of visual aids.

I've noticed that King will "cut and paste" updated information into their videos as needed.

I could see an AP course video created along the lines of a King School video.

exarmyguard