Encampment Cancelled and Not Being Able to Promote

Started by 8014410, April 03, 2020, 05:31:25 am

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8014410

Currently I'm a C/CMSgt, and I have all of the requirements to get my Mitchell except encampment. So I'm planning on going this summer for my basic encampment. However, if encampment gets cancelled will I be able to promote? Also will I be able to attend NBB the next summer?   

Holding Pattern

This is one where you'll want to work closely with your chain of command. I don't think that they (NHQ) will waive the encampment requirement, but an accelerated promotion schedule might be something to suggest your command team look at sending up their chain once encampments are allowed again.

8014410


8014410

April 03, 2020, 06:00:19 am #3 Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 06:05:36 am by 8014410
*mean by

MSG Mac

There will still be Winter Encampments held in several states. In addition, there are provisions for type B encampments which I'm sure most Wings will be holding once the emergency is over.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Ned

NHQ Cadet Programs is still actively reviewing the possibility of encampment (and RCLS) waivers, but we are still watching the current situation play out.  Many encampments are still scheduled in July and August, and we have encouraged wings to consider Type B encampments in the late summer or fall if facility availability is an issue.

I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for cadets in your situation, but we think it is just too early to make the waiver call.

Watch the NHQ Cadet Coronavirus page and the Cadet Blog for updates.

Col Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager


arajca

New policy just put out:
C/MSgt - C/CMSgt - Encampment requirement waived for Mitchell. Waived cadets must complete encampment for Earhart. Must be C/MSgt - C/CMSgt on 1 May 2020 for waiver.

RCLS waived for C/Capt & C/Maj AND 19 or older for Eaker.

See Waiver Letter 20-05 for details. Not posted yet, but sent out via email blast from NHQ.

Fester

Quote from: arajca on May 08, 2020, 12:41:16 amNew policy just put out:
C/MSgt - C/CMSgt - Encampment requirement waived for Mitchell. Waived cadets must complete encampment for Earhart. Must be C/MSgt - C/CMSgt on 1 May 2020 for waiver.

RCLS waived for C/Capt & C/Maj AND 19 or older for Eaker.

See Waiver Letter 20-05 for details. Not posted yet, but sent out via email blast from NHQ.

Email blast has not been received.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Ned

Let me kick the pipes a few times to clear the jam.

You'll have it soon.

kcebnaes

Oh man, I can't wait until this email drops. I have a couple of cadets who were worried they would never be able to get their Mitchell.
Sean Beck, Maj, CAP
Great Lakes Region sUAS Officer
Various Other Things™

NIN

Quote from: kcebnaes on May 08, 2020, 01:19:47 pmOh man, I can't wait until this email drops. I have a couple of cadets who were worried they would never be able to get their Mitchell.

The email dropped to commanders last night.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

arajca

Well, here's the letter I received...

I'm a former commander, but I am involved with Encampment.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: arajca on May 08, 2020, 12:41:16 amC/MSgt - C/CMSgt - Encampment requirement waived for Mitchell. Waived cadets must complete encampment for Earhart. Must be C/MSgt - C/CMSgt on 1 May 2020 for waiver.

I see they moved it from C/TSgt (discussed during the call) to C/MSgt (per the MEMO).

kcebnaes

Quote from: NIN on May 08, 2020, 01:49:07 pm
Quote from: kcebnaes on May 08, 2020, 01:19:47 pmOh man, I can't wait until this email drops. I have a couple of cadets who were worried they would never be able to get their Mitchell.

The email dropped to commanders last night.

Hmmm. Very strange. I still haven't gotten it. Oh well!
Sean Beck, Maj, CAP
Great Lakes Region sUAS Officer
Various Other Things™

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: kcebnaes on May 08, 2020, 02:41:33 pm
Quote from: NIN on May 08, 2020, 01:49:07 pm
Quote from: kcebnaes on May 08, 2020, 01:19:47 pmOh man, I can't wait until this email drops. I have a couple of cadets who were worried they would never be able to get their Mitchell.

The email dropped to commanders last night.

Hmmm. Very strange. I still haven't gotten it. Oh well!

Eventually, good sir. Eventually.

A few more things to occur in our wing before I start sending related emails out.

kcebnaes

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 08, 2020, 07:19:37 pmEventually, good sir. Eventually.

A few more things to occur in our wing before I start sending related emails out.

The voices in my head don't like waiting though..   ;)
Sean Beck, Maj, CAP
Great Lakes Region sUAS Officer
Various Other Things™

Eclipse

An unintended consequence of this situation is that the encampments that still exist after things
settle out are going to have cadet officers in the student flights for the next several years, something
I have been told was considered in the decision to allow for the waivers.

There is also going to be a shortage of cadre during that same time frame as those cadets who
were supposed to be cadre next year are going to be in flight. 

And no, I am not suggesting they should be allowed a "pass" on the student year as being a rank-and-file student is an important part of developing the empathy needed to be a good staff officer in activities like these, but this is a zero-sum game and membership after this is likely to suffer as a result of 'Ronaworld.

寧為太平犬,不做亂世人



NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2020, 08:00:52 pmAn unintended consequence of this situation is that the encampments that still exist after things
settle out are going to have cadet officers in the student flights for the next several years, something
I have been told was considered in the decision to allow for the waivers.

There is also going to be a shortage of cadre during that same time frame as those cadets who
were supposed to be cadre next year are going to be in flight. 

And no, I am not suggesting they should be allowed a "pass" on the student year as being a rank-and-file student is an important part of developing the empathy needed to be a good staff officer in activities like these, but this is a zero-sum game and membership after this is likely to suffer as a result of 'Ronaworld.

寧為太平犬,不做亂世人

So, OK. Suggestions on how to make it better?

Because honestly, this is pretty narrowly written as to affect only cadets who are CURRENTLY C/MSgt thru C/CMSgt as of 1 May.  Look about your wing: how many cadets does that affect?  A cursory query of my data shows that we have 1 C/MSgt (out of 290+ cadets) who doesn't have encampment (Mind you: I could be doing that wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not)

COVID is going to create a pretty good-sized divot in things no matter what. As written, this waiver reduces the divot to cadets, who are by their very nature "time limited," to at least something less than it might otherwise have been.

I think it is assumed that cadets C/TSgt & below would "have to wait" till next year to get encampment for their Mitchell anyway. And most cadets c/SSgt and below won't be a threat for Mitchell by next summer (I have three C/SSgt with no encampment). (I mean, some could, sure, but really most won't)

This may well cause some staffing difficulties for next year. Since we had > 50 apply for something like 30 cadet staff slots, I suspect we have a fair abundance of "staff capable" cadets.

But whats the bigger threat? A huge stymie to cadet's moving on to Phase III who otherwise could, or a lack of cadet staff? I know which one will be the bigger retention threat.


Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Quote from: NIN on May 08, 2020, 08:52:02 pmSo, OK. Suggestions on how to make it better?

A - Flat Tire.

If nothing else, members need to get used to the idea that "normal" CAP, whatever that
meant before, isn't coming back anytime soon, regardless of how 'Ronaworld shapes up.

One positive to this, for Seniors as well, we'll stop hearing excuses for a couple years
about why members can't promote, progress, or make their QCUA numbers or other SUI mandates for training.

If you can sit quietly on a conference call while making dinner or watching Rick & Morty
in another tab, you can kick out whatever PD you need, cadet test, or other training, and the
majority of it is all free for the signing up.

No idea how CAP is going to justify dragging people to in-face versions of a lot of things
that before March were sacrosanct requirements that have now been show to be "not".

Only time will tell if this was a needed forced soft-reboot, or another nail.



Spam

Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2020, 09:21:09 pm
Quote from: NIN on May 08, 2020, 08:52:02 pmSo, OK. Suggestions on how to make it better?

If nothing else, members need to get used to the idea that "normal" CAP, whatever that
meant before, isn't coming back anytime soon, regardless of how 'Ronaworld shapes up.

That's going to be a very hard sell with some members, Eclipse.  Week after week I hear people telling each other that restrictions will be lifted in "just a few more days" and we'll reopen, back to normal ops. This to me is a bit of magical thinking, but thats a pervasive trend, these days.  With the strong probability that we'll see a second wave this fall, and others to come, I feel that CAP normal meetings, in person training, and normal operations are a year or two away (I base that on the precedent of history:  the Spanish Flu impacted US society through two years of waves and the Chinese Flu can safely be assumed to have a similar impact).

So I've been quietly urging that we stop pretending this is just a few weeks of impact, and move from reactively planning to proactively planning a 12 to 18 month plan to deliver content and lead meaningful events to accomplish the missions.

For some, its hard to understand, I would suppose, that a large number of parents will have issues with sending their cadet dependents back into a crowded double wide trailer or meeting room every week, or into promiscuous contacts at encampment or other events (e.g. packed in a CAP van)! Even with probable requirements for reopening such as mandatory wear of masks, I feel that we'll have a high non participation rate. Every month that we kick the can without a plan, decreases membership/parental confidence and probably will impact retention rates. 

So, I welcome the National Commanders prudence in crafting a phased, hopefully evidence based plan, to scale ops up and back in response to conditions. If this is late December 1941, we should plan for the CAP that survives the war, not just for early 1942.

V/r
Spam

(*I presume there will be a couple folks here who will naturally reply with the usual pithy "Good riddance", "Let them go", or other dismissive statements to such concerns, but that dismisses rather than addresses valid safety concerns. There are just some scumbags who refuse to wear masks, too, and can't wait until everyone is exposed...).

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2020, 08:00:52 pmAn unintended consequence of this situation is that the encampments that still exist after things
settle out are going to have cadet officers in the student flights for the next several years, something
I have been told was considered in the decision to allow for the waivers.

There is also going to be a shortage of cadre during that same time frame as those cadets who
were supposed to be cadre next year are going to be in flight. 

And no, I am not suggesting they should be allowed a "pass" on the student year as being a rank-and-file student is an important part of developing the empathy needed to be a good staff officer in activities like these, but this is a zero-sum game and membership after this is likely to suffer as a result of 'Ronaworld.

寧為太平犬,不做亂世人
So, if I may ask, what of it? You stated that as if nobody else has thought about it or figured it out. They/we did. To use a decidedly over-used, yet absolutely relevant phrase:

"It is what it is."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 09, 2020, 01:22:09 am
Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2020, 08:00:52 pmAn unintended consequence of this situation is that the encampments that still exist after things
settle out are going to have cadet officers in the student flights for the next several years, something
I have been told was considered in the decision to allow for the waivers.

There is also going to be a shortage of cadre during that same time frame as those cadets who
were supposed to be cadre next year are going to be in flight. 

And no, I am not suggesting they should be allowed a "pass" on the student year as being a rank-and-file student is an important part of developing the empathy needed to be a good staff officer in activities like these, but this is a zero-sum game and membership after this is likely to suffer as a result of 'Ronaworld.


So, if I may ask, what of it? You stated that as if nobody else has thought about it or figured it out. They/we did. To use a decidedly over-used, yet absolutely relevant phrase:

"It is what it is."


Something that I've heard suggested is to use the Advanced Flight concept to have the higher-ranking cadets who haven't been to Encampment before away from the Cadet Airmen and junior NCOs. They can also be used to support the cadre in their roles while learning the basic educational materials.

I think you need to get innovative about it and see what your Wing can show HHQ as a proposed training model.

NIN

the number of cadet officers "in flight" at a medium-sized encampment (lets call it a 300-cadet wing, so maybe a 100-120 cadet, including staff, encampment) is probably going to be counted on the fingers of one hand.

If they and the staff are pre-briefed:

"You're a student, even though you're a cadet officer. The flight commander and flight sergeant are in charge of their unit and your training, period. Don't like it, well, tough beans that's how it is. Blame COVID-19 and drive on. Take a knee, drink water, change your socks.

Cadet staff, while these cadet officers are students, they're still cadet officers. They're not some cherry fresh out of Phase I for you to get your jollies on. Treat them with respect, but set the expectation level and adhere to it. They might get a *little* more latitude than your average C/A1C in-ranks, but only a little. They are here to get the same experience as Airman Snuffy."

Again, you're talking a small number of cadets even in a medium-sized wing.  Might not even be 1 per flight. Let that cadet be the guide/guidon bearer: slightly elevated responsibility, still a student.

Circa 1983 or 1984, we had a C/FO show up from Okinawa to the Michigan Wing Encampment. Mike Brennan. He knew "I haven't been to an encampment because I've been overseas, so I'm a basic in the flight. Got it."  He got a little latitude from the cadet staff (maybe more than a little) as a "cooperate and graduate" kind of thing, but he still went to all the USAF-mandated 40 hrs of encampment training. Its not like someone was going to bump him back to C/MSgt if his bunk wasn't 100% or something. 

And very strangely: the world continued to turn on its axis, everybody ate chow and marched and sat in classes and climbed thru B-52s and slept in barracks and turned out for PT and ... you know: did encampment like encampment.  No dogs or cats lived together and there was no mass hysteria.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

When I rejoined CAP as a senior (I was a C/Lt Col so I had done encampment) I was a student at a GT School that was part of the Encampment as a 1st Lt with several older cadets with GT experience as my instructors.

We discussed it ahead of time. I was there to learn the same as the cadet students. Even so I was still an officer and had the all of the responsibility for cadet safety, etc.

Probably the most times some of them said and I head. "You're doing that wrong, sir."

Welcome to CAP where the grade does not always indicate who is in charge. It's a good lesson for cadets who plan to stay with us as senior members.

Jester

I think starting the waiver window at C/MSgt is a bit too lax.  I'd do C/CMSgt and leave it as is. 

I already think we're making a mistake by making it a requirement for Mitchell.  I'd set it at Wright Brothers, but that's another argument.

8014410

So if I do promote to C/2nd Lt would I still have to have to go to an encampment to attend NBB?

Eclipse

Quote from: 8014410 on May 10, 2020, 12:20:33 amSo if I do promote to C/2nd Lt would I still have to have to go to an encampment to attend NBB?

A very interesting question, my vote would be "no", but I literally have zero say.

One could make the argument that the reasons for the encampment attendance requirement
before an NCSA are lot more important, practical, and frankly visceral then they are to the Mitchell.

It's non-trivial for cadets (especially younger ones) to prove themselves able to stay away
from home for days at a time and take care of themselves, and for activities which
have limited space and a competitive application process, not really fair for a cadet
to take a space that is then given up on Day 1 for the reasons above.

Lots of things to consider in the near term.



jeders

Quote from: 8014410 on May 10, 2020, 12:20:33 amSo if I do promote to C/2nd Lt would I still have to have to go to an encampment to attend NBB?

Yes, encampment is waived for Mitchell only, not for NCSA attendance, and I don't see that changing. (Then again I didn't see any of this coming, so what do I know?)
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse