August 06, 2020, 01:47:14 am

CAPR 39-1, 5 March 2020

Started by NIN, March 05, 2020, 08:39:44 pm

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Jester

Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 pm
Quote from: SARDOC on March 23, 2020, 04:31:04 pm
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 06, 2020, 05:29:44 pm
Quote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 pmOne thing I noticed,

There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.

I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.

Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?

No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.

Attachment 9 reports Leather nametag phase out date of 01AUG2021

Just checked Vanguard and I am not seeing the embroidered name patches or the grade insignia yet. 

I've been keeping an eye on it as well.  nametags4u.com produce military badges in CAP colors for ABU/BDU, but I don't know if they're able to put CAP badges on a Flight suit name patch or not. 

While I'm sure Vanguard is hit with the same slowdown as everything else right now, I'm sure if things had been coordinated correctly from the get-go the new stuff would be on the site the day the new reg went live.

Eclipse

March 23, 2020, 07:14:14 pm #101 Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 07:21:28 pm by Eclipse
Quote from: Jester on March 23, 2020, 06:47:00 pmI've been keeping an eye on it as well.  nametags4u.com produce military badges in CAP colors for ABU/BDU, but I don't know if they're able to put CAP badges on a Flight suit name patch or not.

They are not - They were C&D 10 years ago.



PHall

It's not like you have to be in any kind of a hurry. You still have 17 months.

THRAWN

Quote from: PHall on March 23, 2020, 08:45:25 pmIt's not like you have to be in any kind of a hurry. You still have 17 months.

The way things are going, maybe more....
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Capt Thompson

Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 pm
Quote from: SARDOC on March 23, 2020, 04:31:04 pm
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 06, 2020, 05:29:44 pm
Quote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 pmOne thing I noticed,

There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.

I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.

Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?

No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.

Attachment 9 reports Leather nametag phase out date of 01AUG2021

Just checked Vanguard and I am not seeing the embroidered name patches or the grade insignia yet. 

VG says they don't have an ETA at this point, but should have more info in a few weeks, per an email response I received a couple of days ago.

Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on March 06, 2020, 05:29:44 pm
Quote from: DocJekyll on March 06, 2020, 05:25:37 pmOne thing I noticed,

There is reference to the "Blue" cloth name patch with silver border, badge and name, but it doesn't reference which type of blue as it does in other sections for name tapes etc. So, what shade is it? Midnight/Dark Navy? Bright Blue? The regulation would seem to show with the picture that it's Midnight/Dark Navy just like the rank, but I recently saw someone from national with a bright blue name patch wearing his FDU.

I would have liked for them to use rank on the USAF style FDU that was sage/od on the background with full color rank. The Midnight/Dark Navy doesn't look that good on the USAF style. Looks great on the Corporate FDU though. There was no guideance for the rank on the shoulders with the cloth. 1/8in blue around the widest and top/bottom edge as per everywhere else? I think that needs to be addressed so we don't have massive patches with 1" border around the rank.

Also appears no phase out for the black leather name patch so that's still good. Just the plastic encased rank?

No phase out for the leather name badge, but it also says that if the leather badge is worn, the plastic encased must be worn, so once the plastic encased rank goes away so do the leather badges.

Other way around. If the Cloth Name Patch is worn, the Cloth Rank must be worn. Phase out for leather is 1 Aug 2021. You can wear the leather name patch with the cloth rank, and I've already made that swap on my uniform.

Reference:
8.3.3.2. Grade Insignia (Officers). Wear plastic encased grade or full-color grade
embroidered on a dark blue background centered on top of each shoulder with bottom edge of insignia
placed ½ inch from shoulder seam. Only cloth grade insignia will be worn with the cloth nametag. Plastic
encased grade insignia will not be worn after 01 August 2021.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


NovemberWhiskey


Brad

Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 23, 2020, 06:08:08 pm... or the grade insignia yet. 

The way I read it sir is to just get the dark blue grade insignia same as what goes on the ABU & BBDU, so here: https://www.vanguardmil.com/collections/nco-insignia-and-cloth-insignia

As to the nametag though, yeah still waiting to see that populate too.
Brad Lee
Maj, CAP
Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff, Communications
Mid-Atlantic Region
K4RMN

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Brad on March 27, 2020, 05:04:48 pmThe way I read it sir is to just get the dark blue grade insignia same as what goes on the ABU & BBDU

I think that's probably right except the Maj Gen rank, which doesn't have the stars lined up appropriately on the existing item. I'm sure they'll figure something out  ;D

ßτε

Use the same blue insignia that has been available for the corporate FDU (the blue one).
Don't use the ABU insignia. It is slightly different.

Eclipse

Quote from: ßτε on March 27, 2020, 08:37:43 pmUse the same blue insignia that has been available for the corporate FDU (the blue one).
Don't use the ABU insignia. It is slightly different.

There is no "ABU version" of field uniform insignia, they are all the same.

And yes, it's the same insignia for the flight suits now as well.



ßτε

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2020, 09:01:12 pm
Quote from: ßτε on March 27, 2020, 08:37:43 pmUse the same blue insignia that has been available for the corporate FDU (the blue one).
Don't use the ABU insignia. It is slightly different.

There is no "ABU version" of field uniform insignia, they are all the same.

And yes, it's the same insignia for the flight suits now as well.
My mistake.

RiverAux

I see that they still have a irreconcilable difference between 39-1 and 39-3 regarding wear of US military ribbons that impacts those who earned U.S. Coast Guard awards while serving in the Coast Guard Auxiliary.  I think its been many years since this has been brought up here, but as a refresher, Coast Guard Auxiliary members can, and regularly do, earn actual Coast Guard awards that are awarded to them by the Coast Guard.  For example, I've got a Presidential Unit Citation, Special Operations Service, and several Distinguished Unit citations earned while an Auxiliary member.  Auxiliary-specific awards are actually only awarded by the Coast Guard too, but are quite obviously not military awards.   

The new version of 39-1 still has this in 11.2.2
Quote11.2.2. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by the competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards will not be worn.

However, 39-3 A(3)(b) says this:
QuoteDecorations, ribbons and badges authorized for wear on the U.S. Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies as outlined in CAPM 39-1.

So, one reg says that you can wear a CG ribbon only if you earned it while a member of the Armed Forces while another reg says you can wear it if it was awarded by competent authority and makes no mention of what status the member had to be in when it was awarded.

The major issue is, of course, why in the heck are we putting any uniform-related requirements in the Award regulation instead of leaving that entirely to the uniform regulation?   

Frankly, I'd say that if the military gives you a military award in compliance with their regulations, then you should be able to wear it whether you were in the military or not at the time.

baronet68

Quote from: RiverAux on April 02, 2020, 09:32:34 pmSo, one reg says that you can wear a CG ribbon only if you earned it while a member of the Armed Forces while another reg says you can wear it if it was awarded by competent authority and makes no mention of what status the member had to be in when it was awarded.

Does the CG Aux allow CAP members to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award on their CG Aux uniforms?
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

RiverAux

The Auxiliary manual does not seem to have a requirement that military awards be earned while in the military to be eligible to be worn on the Auxiliary uniform.  That particular award is one that can be worn on an Auxiliary uniform, so as best I can tell, the answer would be yes. 

HaroldBuchanan

April 05, 2020, 09:23:05 am #115 Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 09:27:08 am by HaroldBuchanan
Quote from: GZCP31 on March 07, 2020, 07:59:59 pm
Quote from: mdickinson on March 07, 2020, 01:24:11 am
Quote from: arajca on March 05, 2020, 09:27:39 pmPhasing out old USAF service coat - 1 Aug 2021.
According to para. 4.1.7 the phase out date is 1 Aug 2020 (about 5 months from now)

Edit: read further down in the thread, and learned that the date in para 4.1.7 is a typo.
Until someone from National states that it is a typo, I will assume that it is correct as written.

As it stands now, the Old USAF Service coat is phased out on 1 Aug 2020 for all EXCEPT Honor Guard. I can understand this as most Honor Guard keep a separate service uniform ready for their duties. The uniform should be in pristine shape and not used for any other duties. Most of the Honor Guard members I know purchased a brand new uniform or inherited it from another Honor Guard member. Giving them an additional year to gather the new uniform makes since.


I would say that since page one of the 39-1 says the old service coat phase out date is covered in chapter 4, and chapter 4 dpsays 2020, all other dates regarding he old style are the typos.

However I do like the concept that honor guards were allowed to old the old style for honor guard only. I might allow for that if any honor guard wants to wear it.



Business Card Apr 5, 2020.pdf
Major Harold Buchanan
OR-042
DCC
Retired US Army

GroundHawg

Quote from: RiverAux on April 02, 2020, 09:32:34 pmI see that they still have a irreconcilable difference between 39-1 and 39-3 regarding wear of US military ribbons that impacts those who earned U.S. Coast Guard awards while serving in the Coast Guard Auxiliary.  I think its been many years since this has been brought up here, but as a refresher, Coast Guard Auxiliary members can, and regularly do, earn actual Coast Guard awards that are awarded to them by the Coast Guard.  For example, I've got a Presidential Unit Citation, Special Operations Service, and several Distinguished Unit citations earned while an Auxiliary member.  Auxiliary-specific awards are actually only awarded by the Coast Guard too, but are quite obviously not military awards. 

The new version of 39-1 still has this in 11.2.2
Quote from: undefined11.2.2. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by the competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards will not be worn.

However, 39-3 A(3)(b) says this:
Quote from: undefinedDecorations, ribbons and badges authorized for wear on the U.S. Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies as outlined in CAPM 39-1.


So, one reg says that you can wear a CG ribbon only if you earned it while a member of the Armed Forces while another reg says you can wear it if it was awarded by competent authority and makes no mention of what status the member had to be in when it was awarded.

The major issue is, of course, why in the heck are we putting any uniform-related requirements in the Award regulation instead of leaving that entirely to the uniform regulation?   

Frankly, I'd say that if the military gives you a military award in compliance with their regulations, then you should be able to wear it whether you were in the military or not at the time.

This has come up a few times over the years with cadets earning the USAF, USN, and USCG marksmanship ribbons/medals.

Hawk200

Well, been reading it, and glad to see some changes. Love that restriction about putting badges/ribbons below the Service Coat notch and below the collar tip gone. (Still wish there were ready resources on mini ribbons, and they were authorized. But, don't actually need them now.)

Does anyone have any insight on why organizational patches are still not authorized on the FDU? It literally makes no sense to allow it on the CFDU, but not the FDU. Anyone know if it just wasn't addressed, so they just let it ride?

Cloth nametag/rank insignia on FDU is pretty sweet. I can just sew everything on the bag/jacket, and be done.

Little puzzled on the single badge for the cloth nametag, though. Vanguard could be making some money on adding badges, and it's really not unusual for two (or even more, I have seen it) on Air Force flightsuits.

I am glad to see some major progress when it comes to sensible placement for additional badges for females. Might not be totally there yet, but it's major progress.

Seems like a few things don't really mirror the Air Force. Almost like a lot of it got written by someone that walked around an Air Force base for awhile, and only took a few notes.

Dwight Dutton

Quote from: GroundHawg on April 06, 2020, 11:43:47 am
Quote from: GroundHawg on April 06, 2020, 11:43:47 am
Quote from: RiverAux on April 02, 2020, 09:32:34 pmFrankly, I'd say that if the military gives you a military award in compliance with their regulations, then you should be able to wear it whether you were in the military or not at the time.

This has come up a few times over the years with cadets earning the USAF, USN, and USCG marksmanship ribbons/medals.

Its actually not a conflict.  Unlike CAP, USCGAUX personnel are considered to be part of the actual Coast Guard.

Dwight Dutton

Quote from: PHall on March 06, 2020, 05:20:40 am
Quote from: i_am_a_politician on March 06, 2020, 02:17:05 am
Quote11.1.5. CAP members wearing a civilian tuxedo or business suit for formal occasions may elect to wear miniature CAP medals on the left breast. Female members may wear miniature medals on equivalent dress. No other badges or devices will be worn.

Oh god please no.

They do it the UK with no problems. So what's the problem?

I am retired US Army, and we do it here with no problems as well.  Most of us no longer fit the uniforms we wore.

This actually came up at the National Board as a morale issue as there was no corporate equivalent to the mess dress uniform.  Apparently it was not formally defined as the equivalent of formal mess dress, but its in there just the same.  Should have allowed at least one badge though.  Leaving pilot wings off seems odd.

A full Mess Dress uniform costs hundreds of dollars.  You can get a used black tie outfit on Ebay for about $20.  Thats another reason.