Holding the attention of a non military type senior

Started by AndyA60, February 24, 2020, 07:12:10 pm

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AndyA60

What about the senior, who maybe professional, even has military experience, but wants to do civic work and help the community, who does not have children. Is there a spot for them? Seems like most combo units are so focused on the kids its like they are funneled into that roll. When the parents should be. Then the aspect of uniforms, etc. when the person actually wants to work/volunteer but the pomp and circumstance and government red tape of the unit gets in the way. Is CAP really just more of a Jr.ROTC and not heavily active in their local community, or is this just reflective of certain groups? Where does your group stand?

GaryVC

I have been thinking about this in a general way recently and have realized that our most productive members are either parents (or grandparents) of cadets or who are former cadets. However, there are many positions in CAP who can be filled by anyone who has an interest in the field. That includes the whole range of ES positions, finance, admin, personnel, IT, safety, transportation, etc.

Possibly because about 90 percent of our seniors have served in the military, we aren't hung up about that and may be more relaxed about the military aspects of CAP than some units.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: AndyA60 on February 24, 2020, 07:12:10 pmWhat about the senior, who maybe professional, even has military experience, but wants to do civic work and help the community, who does not have children. Is there a spot for them? Seems like most combo units are so focused on the kids its like they are funneled into that roll. When the parents should be. Then the aspect of uniforms, etc. when the person actually wants to work/volunteer but the pomp and circumstance and government red tape of the unit gets in the way. Is CAP really just more of a Jr.ROTC and not heavily active in their local community, or is this just reflective of certain groups? Where does your group stand?

This falls into the "be the change you wish to see in the world" category of ideas.

If a SM wants to see their squadron do more community engagement, they need to:

1. Develop the idea into a concept.
2. Sell the concept to the command structure and members.
3. Own the concept to process development and deployment.

Just like every CAP member's development in PD and ES is incumbent on themselves to move forward, so too are ideas to elevate the squadron in a local community.

Eclipse

February 24, 2020, 08:27:54 pm #3 Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 09:21:17 pm by Eclipse
Quote from: AndyA60 on February 24, 2020, 07:12:10 pmWhat about the senior, who maybe professional, even has military experience, but wants to do civic work and help the community, who does not have children. Is there a spot for them? Seems like most combo units are so focused on the kids its like they are funneled into that roll. When the parents should be. Then the aspect of uniforms, etc. when the person actually wants to work/volunteer but the pomp and circumstance and government red tape of the unit gets in the way. Is CAP really just more of a Jr.ROTC and not heavily active in their local community, or is this just reflective of certain groups? Where does your group stand?

This, and your comment in the other thread are so disrespectful and slanted it's hard to
know where to start, so one must conclude you've either had a "bad CAP day" or are trolling.

For starters, cadets are a mission of CAP, not a membership category, if you don't want to
be around them, you're in the wrong organizaiton.

As to the senior program, who do you think keeps the lights on and the doors open?

If the focus of your unit is not where you think it should be - say something, change something,
or move on.  Group or Wing could probably use help NESA, NCSAs, etc.  Or just participate in ES training
and forgo the unit meetings.

Babysitting and pomp and circumstance?  Save it.

Again, why on earth do people join paramilitary organizations and then complain about
"all the paramilitary"?



etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2020, 08:27:54 pmAgain, why on earth do people join paramilitary organizations and then complain about
"all the paramilitary"?

Ummm. For the neat toys?
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on February 24, 2020, 08:41:58 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2020, 08:27:54 pmAgain, why on earth do people join paramilitary organizations and then complain about
"all the paramilitary"?

Ummm. For the neat toys?

Yep, that's literally the problem. 



MacGruff

There is a place for everyone in CAP if you want to help. I will leave the negative reactions to some of your statements to others, as I see Eclipse has already jumped on some of them. However, let's look at the positive side:

- There is a Community Service Ribbon that cadets can earn - that proverbial "non-military type senior" you quoted could be just the kind of person who would be eager to make the arrangement to get the cadets in front of the organizations who could use the cadets to earn those ribbons.
- In addition to the three missions that we have as an organization, we need to RUN the organization. That is not necessarily done in uniform, during meeting nights, or in a meeting format. Maybe you "non-military type senior" would be interested in taking on those roles to help the rest of the squadron or group or wing? There are many opportunities out there.

I have several other suggestions, and if you are not just trolling, feel free to PM me. I'll be happy to help you find a happy place.


SarDragon

Quote from: GaryVC on February 24, 2020, 08:10:51 pmI have been thinking about this in a general way recently and have realized that our most productive members are either parents (or grandparents) of cadets or who are former cadets. However, there are many positions in CAP who can be filled by anyone who has an interest in the field. That includes the whole range of ES positions, finance, admin, personnel, IT, safety, transportation, etc.

I am in a Senior squadron, and many of our members have no military experience. Our predominate experience factor is pilot certificates, from 100+ hours, to 5,000+ hours with ratings all the way up to ATP. We even have a couple of fling-wingers.

QuotePossibly because about 90 percent of our seniors have served in the military, we aren't hung up about that and may be more relaxed about the military aspects of CAP than some units.

That may have been true many years ago, but that figure is now closer to 50%, possibly on the lower side.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Fester

Quote from: SarDragon on February 25, 2020, 01:43:27 am
Quote from: GaryVC on February 24, 2020, 08:10:51 pmI have been thinking about this in a general way recently and have realized that our most productive members are either parents (or grandparents) of cadets or who are former cadets. However, there are many positions in CAP who can be filled by anyone who has an interest in the field. That includes the whole range of ES positions, finance, admin, personnel, IT, safety, transportation, etc.

I am in a Senior squadron, and many of our members have no military experience. Our predominate experience factor is pilot certificates, from 100+ hours, to 5,000+ hours with ratings all the way up to ATP. We even have a couple of fling-wingers.

QuotePossibly because about 90 percent of our seniors have served in the military, we aren't hung up about that and may be more relaxed about the military aspects of CAP than some units.

That may have been true many years ago, but that figure is now closer to 50%, possibly on the lower side.

I have 18 SM in my unit.  Only 3 are former military.  15 are members of current cadets.  I am the only one that is a former Cadet.  Although I do have 3 cadets that are about to transition.

So 90%?  I highly doubt that is anything other than localized to your unit.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: SarDragon on February 25, 2020, 01:43:27 am
Quote from: GaryVC on February 24, 2020, 08:10:51 pmI have been thinking about this in a general way recently and have realized that our most productive members are either parents (or grandparents) of cadets or who are former cadets. However, there are many positions in CAP who can be filled by anyone who has an interest in the field. That includes the whole range of ES positions, finance, admin, personnel, IT, safety, transportation, etc.

I am in a Senior squadron, and many of our members have no military experience. Our predominate experience factor is pilot certificates, from 100+ hours, to 5,000+ hours with ratings all the way up to ATP. We even have a couple of fling-wingers.

QuotePossibly because about 90 percent of our seniors have served in the military, we aren't hung up about that and may be more relaxed about the military aspects of CAP than some units.

That may have been true many years ago, but that figure is now closer to 50%, possibly on the lower side.

I believe his 90% figure was specifically for his squadron.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2020, 08:42:46 pm
Quote from: etodd on February 24, 2020, 08:41:58 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 24, 2020, 08:27:54 pmAgain, why on earth do people join paramilitary organizations and then complain about
"all the paramilitary"?

Ummm. For the neat toys?

Yep, that's literally the problem. 

Well ... whatever it takes to get warm bodies to join. Without access to neat toys, imagine how quickly we would shrink.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 03:59:10 pmWell ... whatever it takes to get warm bodies to join.

That attitude may be fine for an RC club.

It doesn't work for an organizaiton like CAP and is the root cause
of the current situation.



TheSkyHornet

I have a senior member under me (Leadership Officer) who has no experience as a former cadet and no prior military experience. He has demonstrated himself to be extremely proactive at learning the training elements of the Cadet Program (to include the military-style format of some of the training curriculum...drill, uniforms, etc.) and has been absolutely crucial at helping me to breakdown terminology and definitions that maybe don't carry well from military jargon and military-style teaching to a civilian corps that doesn't have that experience. It's a really nice balance/mediator role.

And, yes, the Cadet Program is really just a JROTC-like program (not CAP overall, obviously).

ZigZag911

CAP is the Auxiliary of the USAF, a branch of the military.

Historically,  our original is deeply rooted in wartime service during World War II.

Even within senior squadron's there is going to be an element of military structure and ceremony.

As another poster correctly observed,  if you aren't open to this, then it is very likely that you would be happier offering your service to a different organization.

It parallels the concept of homogeneous assignment (getting round pegs in matching holes!)

If volunteer service frustrates you because of the way the group is structured,  go somewhere you find more to your liking,..don't force yourself to do something you just don't like  - you'll make everyone miserable,  especially yourself.

etodd

February 25, 2020, 09:28:27 pm #14 Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 09:34:58 pm by etodd
Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 25, 2020, 07:31:16 pmIf volunteer service frustrates you because of the way the group is structured,  go somewhere you find more to your liking,..don't force yourself to do something you just don't like  - you'll make everyone miserable,  especially yourself.

Me ... I'm not frustrated at all. Very happy to be in the Wing and Squadron I'm in. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If a Senior member wants to take advantage of all that the military side has to offer, wear blues often, its there for them. If someone else just wants to enjoy all the other parts, and happy in a polo, they can stay just as busy doing those parts.

There is a place for everyone.  :)

The rub comes when one of those two people cannot abide with the other one.  Sad.


.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:28:27 pmIf a Senior member wants to take advantage of all that the military side has to offer, wear blues often, its there for them.

Is it?  How does that work, exactly, when any number of members in the
unit actively discourage the paramilitary aspects of the organizaiton?

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 02:26:16 amMine is composite. But the Cadets meet upstairs and the Seniors upstairs. Occasional group meeting.

This is interesting as well, because you have all but stated any number of times that
you're part of a Senior Unit.
Being in a Composite Unit with Cadets on another floor is not the same thing, and
that you would characterize your unit as Seniors only, and "not meeting in the same place"
in that context speaks volumes.

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:28:27 pmThe rub comes when one of those two people cannot abide with the other one.

There isn't supposed to be anything to "abide".



TheSkyHornet

The uniform doesn't "make it military." There's an entire culture associated with militarism, such as what you'll also see in police and fire departments. It's a form of conduct, camaraderie, bearing/discipline, traditions, customs/courtesies...

These are the parts that I would expect every volunteer in CAP to be prepared to conform to, and these are also the areas I often see going unenforced and not taught to senior members early on. If all the new parent who joins wants to do is schedule O-Flights, fine by me; but don't get irritated when I don't include you in certain cadet classes as an instructor/mentor. I need someone who can lock down those elements in order to have those conversations with cadets.

etodd


Quote from: Eclipse on February 25, 2020, 09:45:33 pmThis is interesting as well, because you have all but stated any number of times that
you're part of a Senior Unit.

You'll have to find a quote for that one.  I'm in a Composite. Never said otherwise.  The Cadets meet every Tuesday. The Seniors meet 1st and 3rd Tuesdays. We meet in separate areas of the facility. Except for certain special occasions, where we will meet together.  Occasionally the Seniors will meet during the off weeks for specific training. I held training for Mission Scanners recently for example. Hoping to start Observer classes soon.  We stay busy. :)
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:59:25 pmI'm in a Composite. The Cadets meet every Tuesday. The Seniors meet 1st and 3rd Tuesdays.

Similar setup with us: cadets meet weekly, seniors meet first and third week.

I'm personally opposed to it. I think it creates distance between members and animosity that we're a "cadet squadron" (when we're chartered as a composite). There doesn't seem to be a lot for seniors to do, however. Not that it's my issue. Glad I'm "not over there."

etodd

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 25, 2020, 10:03:48 pm
Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:59:25 pmI'm in a Composite. The Cadets meet every Tuesday. The Seniors meet 1st and 3rd Tuesdays.

Similar setup with us: cadets meet weekly, seniors meet first and third week.

I'm personally opposed to it. I think it creates distance between members and animosity that we're a "cadet squadron" (when we're chartered as a composite). There doesn't seem to be a lot for seniors to do, however. Not that it's my issue. Glad I'm "not over there."

I admit I haven't visited a Composite where everyone meets together at the same time. I'd like to see how its done. For us, the Cadets have a full couple hours of activities, and the Seniors do as well. Not sure how you would combine the meeting without it going 4-5 hours.  Do less I suppose. Do you alternate at meetings? Let the Cadet Commander have the first 30 minutes for Cadet things, then the Senior Commander for Senior things and back and forth for 2 hours?  On PT night, do the Seniors go outside and sit on a park bench and watch the Cadets run the mile? ;)

I guess there are ways to do a combined meeting. It just seems like less would be accomplished than we are now.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

^ Opening formation, post colors / announcements, awards - 15 minutes.
All-hands sessions - Safety, ES training / tasking, EO. 30 minutes (or as needed)

Cadet Breakouts
PT, Drill, Testing, Leadership, AE, CDI

Senior Breakouts
PD, Tasking, Personnel reviews, ES training & tasking, SUI prep and self-assessments, annual "stuff".

Closing formation, take / homes, retire colors - 5 minutes.

The rest of the time is flexible as needed.

One of the keys to cohesion is the formations and the all-hands times reinforcing
the "one CAP" concept and that's everyone is on the same team, working together.

There is a 13-week evolution to the cadet schedule that senior training
fits into nicely.  And for starters, seniors meet every week.  You can't complain
there's not enough time, and blow off half the potential contact hours every year.

I've inspected and mentored more then a few units where all they do is complain that
there is "no time for PD and all that administration stuff", then you find out they meet
only twice a month, blow off 5th weeks, and take all of December off, not to mention all
the random reasons they miss meetings.

Meeting only twice a month means that a member could miss only two meetings and not be seen
for over a month, losing momentum and initiative.  Meeting every week insures that the
momentum keeps going and that the unit doesn't grind to a halt because one guy is sick.

If you don't have time to do all the things you should be doing, you're not meeting often enough
or are not properly staffed. If you find yourself with time and nothing to do, you're not doing all
you're supposed to.

There's no way around that, and it's not rocket science.



etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on February 26, 2020, 12:43:07 am^ Opening formation, post colors / announcements, awards - 15 minutes.
All-hands sessions - Safety, ES training / tasking, EO. 30 minutes (or as needed)

Cadet Breakouts
PT, Drill, Testing, Leadership, AE, CDI

Senior Breakouts
PD, Tasking, Personnel reviews, ES training & tasking, SUI prep and self-assessments, annual "stuff".

Closing formation, take / homes, retire colors - 5 minutes.

The rest of the time is flexible as needed.

One of the keys to cohesion is the formations and the all-hands times reinforcing
the "one CAP" concept and that's everyone is on the same team, working together.

There is a 13-week evolution to the cadet schedule that senior training
fits into nicely.  And for starters, seniors meet every week.  You can't complain
there's not enough time, and blow off half the potential contact hours every year.

I've inspected and mentored more then a few units where all they do is complain that
there is "no time for PD and all that administration stuff", then you find out they meet
only twice a month, blow off 5th weeks, and take all of December off, not to mention all
the random reasons they miss meetings.

Meeting only twice a month means that a member could miss only two meetings and not be seen
for over a month, losing momentum and initiative.  Meeting every week insures that the
momentum keeps going and that the unit doesn't grind to a halt because one guy is sick.

If you don't have time to do all the things you should be doing, you're not meeting often enough
or are not properly staffed. If you find yourself with time and nothing to do, you're not doing all
you're supposed to.

There's no way around that, and it's not rocket science.

Good info , Good ideas. As yes, as I said earlier, we often do meet on the normally off weekends, for training. Thanks for your post.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

eopiela

Our squadron meets twice a month, with both seniors and cadets together; seems to work well.  Have attached a sample meeting schedule. 

etodd

February 26, 2020, 04:31:05 am #23 Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 04:39:50 am by etodd
Quote from: eopiela on February 26, 2020, 03:35:41 amOur squadron meets twice a month, with both seniors and cadets together; seems to work well.  Have attached a sample meeting schedule. 

Just twice, but its 6 hours each time.  OK

No Corporate Uniforms allowed?

Composite, but the schedule you attached is mostly Cadet oriented it seems.  I take it that you don't have an airplane or pilots? Ground Teams? Any ES?
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Fester

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 09:59:25 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 25, 2020, 09:45:33 pmThis is interesting as well, because you have all but stated any number of times that
you're part of a Senior Unit.

You'll have to find a quote for that one.  I'm in a Composite. Never said otherwise.  The Cadets meet every Tuesday. The Seniors meet 1st and 3rd Tuesdays. We meet in separate areas of the facility. Except for certain special occasions, where we will meet together.  Occasionally the Seniors will meet during the off weeks for specific training. I held training for Mission Scanners recently for example. Hoping to start Observer classes soon.  We stay busy. :)


And what do you do to support the Cadet Program?  After all, it is one of our three mandated missions.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Fester

Quote from: Eclipse on February 26, 2020, 12:43:07 am^ Opening formation, post colors / announcements, awards - 15 minutes.
All-hands sessions - Safety, ES training / tasking, EO. 30 minutes (or as needed)

Cadet Breakouts
PT, Drill, Testing, Leadership, AE, CDI

Senior Breakouts
PD, Tasking, Personnel reviews, ES training & tasking, SUI prep and self-assessments, annual "stuff".

Closing formation, take / homes, retire colors - 5 minutes.

The rest of the time is flexible as needed.

One of the keys to cohesion is the formations and the all-hands times reinforcing
the "one CAP" concept and that's everyone is on the same team, working together.

There is a 13-week evolution to the cadet schedule that senior training
fits into nicely.  And for starters, seniors meet every week.  You can't complain
there's not enough time, and blow off half the potential contact hours every year.

I've inspected and mentored more then a few units where all they do is complain that
there is "no time for PD and all that administration stuff", then you find out they meet
only twice a month, blow off 5th weeks, and take all of December off, not to mention all
the random reasons they miss meetings.

Meeting only twice a month means that a member could miss only two meetings and not be seen
for over a month, losing momentum and initiative.  Meeting every week insures that the
momentum keeps going and that the unit doesn't grind to a halt because one guy is sick.

If you don't have time to do all the things you should be doing, you're not meeting often enough
or are not properly staffed. If you find yourself with time and nothing to do, you're not doing all
you're supposed to.

There's no way around that, and it's not rocket science.

I rarely agree with you, Eclipse, but on this one.... 100%.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Fester

Quote from: eopiela on February 26, 2020, 03:35:41 amOur squadron meets twice a month, with both seniors and cadets together; seems to work well.  Have attached a sample meeting schedule. 

Interesting.  Don't think I've ever seen a Cadet or Composite Squadron that only meets twice per month.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

TheSkyHornet

Totally with you on this, Eclipse.

Being a Composite Squadron doesn't mean that everyone needs to meet together in the same room at the same time for the duration of the meeting. Form up at the start, split off and do your thing, join up when appropriate, go back to doing your thing, and form up to fall out at the end.

"Composite" means that you're sharing common materials/resources for the overall unit. You can still run multiple operations and activities simultaneously while dedicating the same people and equipment that can be passed around as needed. You don't need two Finance Officers, two Supply Officers, and two Professional Development Officers. These are resources that can be allocated to everyone.

What we tend to run into is a lack of Cadet Programs senior cadre that can't devote their meeting time to whatever senior member-oriented class is going on. For example, if there is a briefing about the new Professional Development program, we might simultaneously be having drill testing (which requires a senior present) and an activity planning meeting (which requires two more seniors). Suddenly, the PDO is complaining that the senior cadre isn't in the PD briefing. Well, they're busy.

We have a relatively poor schedule coordination between our cadet side and senior side due to having virtually no "senior members" (dedicated to senior-type stuff). Everyone involved in Cadet Programs activities is usually busy for most of the weekly meeting (which is great on my end). But with the seniors meeting on the first week, and a third week staff duty meeting, it's challenging to coordinate the schedule with that group. Even more so when the seniors that usually show up leave after an hour after the meeting starts.

It seems incredibly uncommon at composites that the seniors stay the duration of the meeting every time (except for high level staff) and actually stay productive for the duration of the meeting. You really need to have an active Emergency Services operation running to make it valuable.