July 04, 2020, 12:20:01 pm

Key Traits for SM Programs

Started by Holding Pattern, February 17, 2020, 04:48:20 am

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Holding Pattern

The Cadet program in 60-1 identifies the following key triats of cadet life:
Quote1.6. KEY TRAITS OF CADET LIFE
Five key traits of cadet life inform commanders of the desired look and feel of cadet activities and how they should conduct the Cadet Program.

1.6.1. The Uniform. CAP promotes teamwork and high standards of personal conduct through the cadets being granted the privilege of wearing an Air Force-style uniform. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish cadets from ordinary youth. These military aspects of cadet life are important motivators. Every activity should allow cadets to wear their uniform and properly render military customs and courtesies.

1.6.2. Aerospace Theme. CAP members often hold in common a love of flying. Aviation is the thread that runs through all three CAP missions, and CAP's affiliation with the Air Force underscores its identity as an air-minded organization. Whenever possible, every cadet activity should further cadets' enthusiasm for aerospace, as "aerospace" is broadly understood. With a little imagination, even fitness and character activities can be shown to have an aerospace connection.

1.6.3. Opportunity to Lead. CAP develops leadership skills in cadets by giving them opportunities to lead. This includes planning events, making decisions, and teaching and mentoring junior-ranking cadets, commensurate with their developmental progress and grade. The cadets' grade structure and military-style chain of command reinforces this leadership concept. Every activity should allow cadets opportunities to lead, under adult leader supervision.

1.6.4. Challenge. CAP challenges youth. It might be the physical challenge of conquering an obstacle course, an academic challenge to master aerospace and leadership concepts, a moral challenge to live the Core Values, or a personal challenge to know oneself better and gain self-confidence. Because of these challenges, the Cadet Program is intended for young adults, not children. Every activity should challenge cadets in one way or another.

1.6.5. Fun. CAP should be fun. New friends and great opportunities are the hallmarks of cadet life. The cadets who work hard in CAP reap the most benefits, but the program should not be another form of school - it needs to be fun, hands-on, rewarding, and exciting. Proper adult supervision, an emphasis on risk management, and teamwork built upon mutual respect create a safe and fun environment. Every activity should be fun, for cadets and their adult leaders alike.

With this in mind, what should the key traits of an ideal SM program look like?

TheSkyHornet

I'll answer a question with a question:
Why are senior members in CAP?

The Cadet Program is pretty cut-and-dry as to its intent: it's a leadership program built around an Air Force/aerospace theme with opportunities for emergency services training/involvement. Every cadet is supposed to have the same opportunity, with a flexible, dynamic training environment based on one's locale, local culture, and support network.

The "Senior Member Program" (which isn't really a thing) is a sandbox mode training and operational arena.

catrulz

Okay this my adjusted verbiage from the cadet statement:

KEY TRAITS OF SENIOR MEMBER SERVICE
Five key traits of Senior Member Service provide command, staff and operational operators and managers.  The Senior Member Program should be supervised training program that develops the program leaders of the future.

1. The Uniform. CAP promotes a professional corporate and military image both internally and to external agencies.  Adherence to proper uniform and appropriate grooming standards, provide an example to our subordinates, peers and cadets. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish CAP members, and demonstrate respect and professionalism.

2. Operational Theme. CAP members often hold an interest of flying, communicating and assisting those in distress.  CAP's affiliation with the Air Force underscores its identity as an air-minded organization.  Many CAP members are HAM radio operators, and CERT team members.  Senior Members are encouraged to assist in operational activities, that either help the community, state and nation or the organization. 

3. Opportunity to Lead. CAP develops leadership, managerial and staff skills. This includes planning events, making decisions, and teaching and mentoring staff and subordinates, commensurate with their developmental progress.  The military-style chain of command reinforces this leadership and staff concept. Membership should afford all members the opportunity to command, lead, advise, and assist.

4. Challenge. CAP challenges adult members.  CAP expects the Senior Membership to provide supervision, mentoring and example to both the cadet membership, and new Senior Members.  Challenges include but are not limited to:  Accepting and learning a work assignment at the unit level,   living the Core Values, give freely of your time, experience.  The biggest challenge of all, is too discipline yourself to accept orders from your leaders, operate with the regulation of the corporations, and be a team player.

5. Fun. CAP should be fun. New friends and great opportunities are the hallmarks of Adult Member life. The Senior Members who work and train hard in CAP reap the most benefits, second unpaid full time job.  CAP needs to be fun, hands-on, rewarding, and exciting.  Proper adult training, mentorship, command guidance, and personal motivation with an emphasis on risk management, and teamwork built upon mutual respect create a safe and fun environment. Every activity should be fun, for cadets and their adult leaders alike.

I don't believe SM key traits should be greatly different from the cadets, but motivations and expectations should be radically different.

Eclipse

1.6 - It's not about you.

1.7 - Don't waste people's time.

1.8 - It's not about you.

1.9 - Act like adults.

2.0 - In times of conflict misunderstandings see 1.6.



Holding Pattern

Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2020, 04:45:12 pm1.7 - Don't waste people's time.


This is covered in more flowery language in CAPR 1-2:
Quote from: CAPR 1-25. Relevance, Efficiency and Sustainability. All directive publications or revisions thereof, to include prescribed forms, should be mindful of any additional administrative burden to CAP volunteers or employees. Therefore, OPRs must consider relevance, efficiency and sustainability of directive requirements when developing regulations, supplements and OIs.

etodd

Quote from: catrulz on February 17, 2020, 04:31:11 pmOkay this my adjusted verbiage from the cadet statement:

KEY TRAITS OF SENIOR MEMBER SERVICE
Five key traits of Senior Member Service provide command, staff and operational operators and managers.  The Senior Member Program should be supervised training program that develops the program leaders of the future.

1. The Uniform. CAP promotes a professional corporate and military image both internally and to external agencies.  Adherence to proper uniform and appropriate grooming standards, provide an example to our subordinates, peers and cadets. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish CAP members, and demonstrate respect and professionalism.

2. Operational Theme. CAP members often hold an interest of flying, communicating and assisting those in distress.  CAP's affiliation with the Air Force underscores its identity as an air-minded organization.  Many CAP members are HAM radio operators, and CERT team members.  Senior Members are encouraged to assist in operational activities, that either help the community, state and nation or the organization. 

3. Opportunity to Lead. CAP develops leadership, managerial and staff skills. This includes planning events, making decisions, and teaching and mentoring staff and subordinates, commensurate with their developmental progress.  The military-style chain of command reinforces this leadership and staff concept. Membership should afford all members the opportunity to command, lead, advise, and assist.

4. Challenge. CAP challenges adult members.  CAP expects the Senior Membership to provide supervision, mentoring and example to both the cadet membership, and new Senior Members.  Challenges include but are not limited to:  Accepting and learning a work assignment at the unit level,   living the Core Values, give freely of your time, experience.  The biggest challenge of all, is too discipline yourself to accept orders from your leaders, operate with the regulation of the corporations, and be a team player.

5. Fun. CAP should be fun. New friends and great opportunities are the hallmarks of Adult Member life. The Senior Members who work and train hard in CAP reap the most benefits, second unpaid full time job.  CAP needs to be fun, hands-on, rewarding, and exciting.  Proper adult training, mentorship, command guidance, and personal motivation with an emphasis on risk management, and teamwork built upon mutual respect create a safe and fun environment. Every activity should be fun, for cadets and their adult leaders alike.

I don't believe SM key traits should be greatly different from the cadets, but motivations and expectations should be radically different.

Some Seniors may want to do all the above.  But many just want to find their niche, and try to excel at the job they like.  Cadets have a tract to follow, which encompasses many areas of exposure for them. The Seniors have jobs. Many just want to keep it simple. Just wear their polo, be a AP, MP PAO, etc., and don't care about rising up to be Commander one day.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Fester

Quote from: etodd on February 17, 2020, 05:17:15 pm
Quote from: catrulz on February 17, 2020, 04:31:11 pmOkay this my adjusted verbiage from the cadet statement:

KEY TRAITS OF SENIOR MEMBER SERVICE
Five key traits of Senior Member Service provide command, staff and operational operators and managers.  The Senior Member Program should be supervised training program that develops the program leaders of the future.

1. The Uniform. CAP promotes a professional corporate and military image both internally and to external agencies.  Adherence to proper uniform and appropriate grooming standards, provide an example to our subordinates, peers and cadets. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish CAP members, and demonstrate respect and professionalism.

2. Operational Theme. CAP members often hold an interest of flying, communicating and assisting those in distress.  CAP's affiliation with the Air Force underscores its identity as an air-minded organization.  Many CAP members are HAM radio operators, and CERT team members.  Senior Members are encouraged to assist in operational activities, that either help the community, state and nation or the organization. 

3. Opportunity to Lead. CAP develops leadership, managerial and staff skills. This includes planning events, making decisions, and teaching and mentoring staff and subordinates, commensurate with their developmental progress.  The military-style chain of command reinforces this leadership and staff concept. Membership should afford all members the opportunity to command, lead, advise, and assist.

4. Challenge. CAP challenges adult members.  CAP expects the Senior Membership to provide supervision, mentoring and example to both the cadet membership, and new Senior Members.  Challenges include but are not limited to:  Accepting and learning a work assignment at the unit level,   living the Core Values, give freely of your time, experience.  The biggest challenge of all, is too discipline yourself to accept orders from your leaders, operate with the regulation of the corporations, and be a team player.

5. Fun. CAP should be fun. New friends and great opportunities are the hallmarks of Adult Member life. The Senior Members who work and train hard in CAP reap the most benefits, second unpaid full time job.  CAP needs to be fun, hands-on, rewarding, and exciting.  Proper adult training, mentorship, command guidance, and personal motivation with an emphasis on risk management, and teamwork built upon mutual respect create a safe and fun environment. Every activity should be fun, for cadets and their adult leaders alike.

I don't believe SM key traits should be greatly different from the cadets, but motivations and expectations should be radically different.

Some Seniors may want to do all the above.  But many just want to find their niche, and try to excel at the job they like.  Cadets have a tract to follow, which encompasses many areas of exposure for them. The Seniors have jobs. Many just want to keep it simple. Just wear their polo, be a AP, MP PAO, etc., and don't care about rising up to be Commander one day.

Sounds like all of that is "I like the status quo and don't want to learn and grow."  Which leads to complacency. 
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Fester on February 18, 2020, 06:40:08 am
Quote from: etodd on February 17, 2020, 05:17:15 pmSome Seniors may want to do all the above.  But many just want to find their niche, and try to excel at the job they like.  Cadets have a tract to follow, which encompasses many areas of exposure for them. The Seniors have jobs. Many just want to keep it simple. Just wear their polo, be a AP, MP PAO, etc., and don't care about rising up to be Commander one day.

Sounds like all of that is "I like the status quo and don't want to learn and grow."  Which leads to complacency. 

A number of senior members are comfortably complacent and want to stay in a niche area for the duration of their time in CAP. There are pilots who want to do nothing but fly O-Flights; no command duties or involvement in non-flying activities. There are ground team members that solely want to stomp dirt. There are aerospace officers who just want to teach AE labs.

Seniors are not bound by constraints of how much they want to get involved in. Cadets, however, have contact hours that must be met in their prescribed areas: aerospace, leadership, fitness, and character. Within the leadership program element, it includes drill and uniform wear. This is a direct driver to the key cadet life trait regarding wear of the uniform.

The Key Traits of Cadet Life are complementary to the Program Elements of the Cadet Program.

So the Key Traits of Senior Membership should be complementary to the Program Elements of the "Senior Program." The issue in this is that there is no Senior Program.

etodd

Quote from: Fester on February 18, 2020, 06:40:08 amSounds like all of that is "I like the status quo and don't want to learn and grow."  Which leads to complacency. 

Quite the opposite.  In the many areas I am involved in, I'm constantly learning, growing and improving skill sets.  Just because I'm not interested in your area, does not equal complacency at all.

Too many confuse growth, with getting new ribbons and bars.  For some people it is, for others its not.

As had been said, their really is no Senior Program that mirrors Cadets. Its totally different. Its up to each individual to find what interest them and to work at it. Its our diversity of interests that makes us strong. :)

MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on February 18, 2020, 07:52:10 pmAs had been said, their really is no Senior Program that mirrors Cadets.

Which is probably the core of the issues CAP has today, namely attempting
to mirror a military organizaiton and augment ES response agencies while
essentially requiring no training or participation, per se, coupled with little oversight or little ramifications for lack of execution.

"Come as you are / do as you please" is no way to run an organization like CAP.



TheSkyHornet

Quote from: etodd on February 18, 2020, 07:52:10 pmAs had been said, their really is no Senior Program that mirrors Cadets. Its totally different. Its up to each individual to find what interest them and to work at it. Its our diversity of interests that makes us strong.

Well, and this really only applies because of the fact that we're a "wide berth" volunteer organization that has numerous mission focuses. It's not like we all do the same thing.

As someone who works almost exclusively in Cadet Programs, I really don't need to be strapped into the middle of Ground Team whatevers. The leadership training principles remain the same. But the duty training elements are vastly different. And this is precisely where a one-size-fits-all methodology dies in this type of organization.

SLS and CLC content applies to everyone. But not necessarily TLC or GTM3. These are targeted training programs that directly impact the capacity and extent to which one participates/serves. But they need to remain areas that the individual member pursues.

The whole "activities should be fun, challenging, etc." doesn't really apply to the senior corps in its entirety. Senior members are not in a constant practical training program. They can be but are not necessarily required to be. Many seniors want a no-bullhockey environment where everyone takes it serious (show up, work, leave). And those grunts may be absolutely fantastic at what they do in that arena. Then there are the ones that thrive on social activities who want to be the planners and coordinators; and they are fantastic at what they do.

We need to understand that senior members are not cadets, and they're not being trained to be developed, self-reliant adults. This is the expectation when they join. We catch them up to speed on the "CAP way," but we expect them to pick up on their own and be self-starting (which we automatically expect cadets to need to learn how to do as they move up in the program).

This is where we need to look to the local level and help squadron units build up their own corps of seniors to meet the needs of those in the locale. What are your senior members looking for, and, are you (as a Commander or designee) helping to provide them that? We can't write a manual for how we maintain a senior program when it's really about knowing your people and working to provide them with operational opportunity and personal development. And that's going to differ for most people on a career track where it's at your own pace and to your own agenda.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 08:00:15 pmWhich is probably the core of the issues CAP has today, namely attempting
to mirror a military organizaiton and augment ES response agencies while
essentially requiring no training or participation, per se, coupled with little oversight or little ramifications for lack of execution.

Exactly this.

And, again, this goes right back to the fact that CAP has multiple missions that are virtually segregated. Our missions may be effective in their own nature, but they are really not well interfaced, which creates a difference in the training structure of the people involved.

This can't be a cookie cutter approach to maintaining a senior member roster.

PHall

Key Trait for a Senior Member? That's easy, to actually act like an adult!

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 08:00:15 pm.... attempting to mirror a military organization .....

....when a large number of the civilian volunteers are not interested in that aspect.

We are too diverse from one Squadron to the next, one Wing to the next. There is no one size fits all cookie cutter solution for Seniors.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on February 18, 2020, 10:19:51 pm....when a large number of the civilian volunteers are not interested in that aspect.

The fact that members feel empowered to make that statement is one of the problems.

You don't join a paramilitary organization and then complain about having to wear the uniform.



etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 11:01:24 pmYou don't join a paramilitary organization and then complain about having to wear the uniform.

I proudly wear my polo uniform. Have never complained about it. The AF says its ok, and thats good enough for me.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

catrulz

Multiple threads knocked off topic by uniform wear discussion.

PHall

Quote from: etodd on February 19, 2020, 03:21:29 am
Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 11:01:24 pmYou don't join a paramilitary organization and then complain about having to wear the uniform.

I proudly wear my polo uniform. Have never complained about it. The AF says its ok, and thats good enough for me.

As long as you understand that it's not "correct" for all CAP activities.
Some activities require a higher level of decorum.

etodd

Quote from: PHall on February 19, 2020, 05:35:59 pm
Quote from: etodd on February 19, 2020, 03:21:29 am
Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 11:01:24 pmYou don't join a paramilitary organization and then complain about having to wear the uniform.

I proudly wear my polo uniform. Have never complained about it. The AF says its ok, and thats good enough for me.

As long as you understand that it's not "correct" for all CAP activities.
Some activities require a higher level of decorum.

Four years and I've attended everything in my Wing from Squadron meetings, SAREXes, training exercises, and actual missions. But yes, I forego the rubber chicken dinner and award banquet at the annual Wing Conference, where most are in blues and very shiny shoes. So, you are correct on that one. LOL
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: etodd on February 19, 2020, 07:06:45 pm
Quote from: PHall on February 19, 2020, 05:35:59 pm
Quote from: etodd on February 19, 2020, 03:21:29 am
Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 11:01:24 pmYou don't join a paramilitary organization and then complain about having to wear the uniform.

I proudly wear my polo uniform. Have never complained about it. The AF says its ok, and thats good enough for me.

As long as you understand that it's not "correct" for all CAP activities.
Some activities require a higher level of decorum.

Four years and I've attended everything in my Wing from Squadron meetings, SAREXes, training exercises, and actual missions. But yes, I forego the rubber chicken dinner and award banquet at the annual Wing Conference, where most are in blues and very shiny shoes. So, you are correct on that one. LOL
So your unit doesn't grant any significance at all to awards/promotions, or do you just skip those meetings completely?

etodd

February 19, 2020, 08:53:17 pm #19 Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 08:57:58 pm by etodd
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on February 19, 2020, 08:33:23 pmSo your unit doesn't grant any significance at all to awards/promotions, or do you just skip those meetings completely?

The Cadets meet in another location, and yes they have Award type nights where they are in blues.

The Seniors? Not in my four years. As the Commander is leading a meeting he will casually announce that senior member Smith has made Captain, or whatever. Folks will clap, then we move on.  We don't do the 'photo op' thing.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on February 19, 2020, 08:33:23 pm
Quote from: etodd on February 19, 2020, 07:06:45 pm
Quote from: PHall on February 19, 2020, 05:35:59 pm
Quote from: etodd on February 19, 2020, 03:21:29 am
Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 11:01:24 pmYou don't join a paramilitary organization and then complain about having to wear the uniform.

I proudly wear my polo uniform. Have never complained about it. The AF says its ok, and thats good enough for me.

As long as you understand that it's not "correct" for all CAP activities.
Some activities require a higher level of decorum.

Four years and I've attended everything in my Wing from Squadron meetings, SAREXes, training exercises, and actual missions. But yes, I forego the rubber chicken dinner and award banquet at the annual Wing Conference, where most are in blues and very shiny shoes. So, you are correct on that one. LOL
So your unit doesn't grant any significance at all to awards/promotions, or do you just skip those meetings completely?

All of ours are handled the same:
The promotee is welcomed to invite guests of their choosing. At the start of the meeting, we call them up. They report. Brief spiel (not necessary for frequent promos such as C/A1C). Ask who they wish to have pin on their insignia; bring that person up. Photo with the guest. Photo with the Commander (presenting a certificate). Salute and fall back into rank.

I've talked to people at cadet units who don't even let the cadet know that they're pinning that night. They just have the cadet commander and CDC pin on the insignia. I'm vehemently opposed to that methodology.

Fubar

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 19, 2020, 09:49:11 pmI've talked to people at cadet units who don't even let the cadet know that they're pinning that night. They just have the cadet commander and CDC pin on the insignia. I'm vehemently opposed to that methodology.

Concur. You have to include the cadet's family, if anything it helps with retention. The parent's pride-filled faces helps the cadets feel special for their accomplishment, encouraging pursuit of further advancement. It helps the parents understand why the weekly meetings, special activities, and paperwork chasing is worth it.

AndyA60

have to kind of agree with all of the statements. I am not seeing a real senior member program at all. You have the trained individuals who respond to S&R activity but the seniors seem to be funneled into babysitting. Which is fine if you have individuals who have grandkids in the program or kids, but I do not see most parents volunteering and the seniors who join hoping for an actual volunteer program where they can be civic contributors leave after finding out they are just called in to supervise the children. No matter where I search for info on senior programs, CADETS is the info that pops up. Why not just reword the senior program to "Parent Volunteers" and see how many actually sign up...very few.

PHall

You don't want to deal with cadets? Good luck with that but you can minimize your contact with cadets by being a member of a Senior Squadron.
Then you only have to babysit each other.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: PHall on February 24, 2020, 10:21:38 pmYou don't want to deal with cadets? Good luck with that but you can minimize your contact with cadets by being a member of a Senior Squadron.
Then you only have to babysit each other.

My wing refuses to authorize SM squadrons, no matter how badly we want one.

SarDragon

Quote from: Holding Pattern on February 24, 2020, 10:33:19 pm
Quote from: PHall on February 24, 2020, 10:21:38 pmYou don't want to deal with cadets? Good luck with that but you can minimize your contact with cadets by being a member of a Senior Squadron.
Then you only have to babysit each other.

My wing refuses to authorize SM squadrons, no matter how badly we want one.
Then build up the SM side of your Composite squadron, with the SMs not involved in CP meeting on a different night for all but one meeting a month. For that one meeting, everyone gets together for general announcements, awards, etc.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Fester

Quote from: Holding Pattern on February 24, 2020, 10:33:19 pm
Quote from: PHall on February 24, 2020, 10:21:38 pmYou don't want to deal with cadets? Good luck with that but you can minimize your contact with cadets by being a member of a Senior Squadron.
Then you only have to babysit each other.

My wing refuses to authorize SM squadrons, no matter how badly we want one.

I'm not sure that I don't agree with that.  I've personally thought many times that there should only be one type of Squadron - Composite Squadrons.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Eclipse

Quote from: Fester on February 25, 2020, 01:59:48 amI'm not sure that I don't agree with that.  I've personally thought many times that there should only be one type of Squadron - Composite Squadrons.

Agree 100%.



etodd

Mine is composite. But the Cadets meet upstairs and the Seniors upstairs. Occasional group meeting.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

SarDragon

Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 02:26:16 amMine is composite. But the Cadets meet upstairs and the Seniors upstairs. Occasional group meeting.
Neat trick. Second floor and third floor?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

etodd

Quote from: SarDragon on February 25, 2020, 05:39:33 am
Quote from: etodd on February 25, 2020, 02:26:16 amMine is composite. But the Cadets meet upstairs and the Seniors upstairs. Occasional group meeting.
Neat trick. Second floor and third floor?

Make it first and second.  LOL   
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

wacapgh

Quote from: Eclipse on February 25, 2020, 02:17:34 am
Quote from: Fester on February 25, 2020, 01:59:48 amI'm not sure that I don't agree with that.  I've personally thought many times that there should only be one type of Squadron - Composite Squadrons.

Agree 100%.

Since probably 90%+ of all units are NOT Senior or Cadet squadrons, maybe we should just designate them as " ABCD Squadron" and slowly phase out the use of "Composite".

SarDragon

How did you arrive at 90%?

Here's the CAWG breakdown:
16/67 Cadet (24%)
40/67 Composite (60%)
11/67 Senior (16%)

Admittedly, at least a few of the "Composite" units are functionally cadet squadrons, so that adds some bias.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: SarDragon on February 25, 2020, 09:01:53 pmAdmittedly, at least a few of the "Composite" units are functionally cadet squadrons, so that adds some bias.

We have that. We're chartered as a composite squadron, but most of our involvement comes from the cadet side of the house, whether the cadets themselves or those directly support cadet activities (leadership/training, testing, supply).

We've had a difficulty over the past few years holding onto senior members who want to do "senior member-only things," such as the sole ground pounders (and we don't have any aircraft, so no pilots). There's just no functional role right now for an independent "senior side" that doesn't interact with cadets. We basically have three members who are "on the senior side" that include the Finance Officer/Professional Development Officer, Admin Officer (rarely ever present), and Emergency Services Officer (who doesn't have any current qualifications and is intending to retire this spring).

Unless it's cadet-focused, there's not a whole lot for seniors to do. And we have an extremely active cadet operation going.

wacapgh

Quote from: SarDragon on February 25, 2020, 09:01:53 pmHow did you arrive at 90%?

Here's the CAWG breakdown:
16/67 Cadet (24%)
40/67 Composite (60%)
11/67 Senior (16%)

Admittedly, at least a few of the "Composite" units are functionally cadet squadrons, so that adds some bias.

SWAG :)
However, those CA numbers show a 60% majority. There are several wings that do not allow Cadet or Senior squadrons to be chartered (as posted above), so that's 100% "Composite" moving the "default" value in that direction.

We now return to your original topic :)

Eclipse

Quote from: wacapgh on February 26, 2020, 07:31:08 pmThere are several wings that do not allow Cadet or Senior squadrons to be chartered

Cite please.



jeders

Quote from: Eclipse on February 26, 2020, 08:16:05 pm
Quote from: wacapgh on February 26, 2020, 07:31:08 pmThere are several wings that do not allow Cadet or Senior squadrons to be chartered

Cite please.

Eight out of 52 wings, ~15%, have only composite squadrons (not including the legislative squadron). Some of these, such as South Dakota, Montana, Idaho are probably because of the fact that there aren't enough people to necessitate or even allow for specialization. Others, however, are likely due to wing edicts disallowing (either explicitly or implicitly) anything but composite squadrons. This comes by scrolling through the list of all CAP units as listed in eServices.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Are the Names in that accurate enough?  I don't think you have to have the word in the name to be that thing.



SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on February 26, 2020, 10:00:32 pmAre the Names in that accurate enough?  I don't think you have to have the word in the name to be that thing.

That is correct, although it is much more common than not. I do not recall all that many units without the squadron type in the name.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
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baronet68

Quote from: Eclipse on February 26, 2020, 08:16:05 pm
Quote from: wacapgh on February 26, 2020, 07:31:08 pmThere are several wings that do not allow Cadet or Senior squadrons to be chartered

Cite please.

While not formally documented, my wing will only charter composite squadrons.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: SarDragon on February 27, 2020, 01:52:10 am
Quote from: Eclipse on February 26, 2020, 10:00:32 pmAre the Names in that accurate enough?  I don't think you have to have the word in the name to be that thing.

That is correct, although it is much more common than not. I do not recall all that many units without the squadron type in the name.

We have three units in our wing that do not indicate the unit type in the official charter name. One is treated as a cadet squadron, one is a composite, and the third is a flight.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: baronet68 on February 27, 2020, 03:35:58 am
Quote from: Eclipse on February 26, 2020, 08:16:05 pm
Quote from: wacapgh on February 26, 2020, 07:31:08 pmThere are several wings that do not allow Cadet or Senior squadrons to be chartered

Cite please.

While not formally documented, my wing will only charter composite squadrons.
A few years back ILWG had a similar "goal". Every new unit was intended to be a "full" program. Not sure what the current leadership does, or if any new units are being charted.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on February 27, 2020, 03:37:27 pm
Quote from: baronet68 on February 27, 2020, 03:35:58 amWhile not formally documented, my wing will only charter composite squadrons.
A few years back ILWG had a similar "goal". Every new unit was intended to be a "full" program. Not sure what the current leadership does, or if any new units are being charted.

The problem with this is the enforcement of it.

Sure, you can encourage a composite-style operation, but you really can't make that happen. I find that, in most cases, cadet-only units are much more active than senior-only units. And, in most cases, composite units are active more on the cadet side than on the senior side.

Wish lists are great. But they only work if the resources are available and people want to actually perform that function.

Eclipse

I don't disagree, but lack of enforcement is a command failing coupled with
no one caring about the SUIs (which would expose the issues if higher HQ is unaware).

I'd argue the root case is that units exist and are placed as much on the whim of
the current CC as actual demographic studies of population and mission need.

The second is a nation failing, but isn't unique to CAP.



catrulz

Was lurking for a while, but let me add a couple of points:

1.  The easiest way to get value or determine how much value your going to get from a new SM, is put them to work immediately.  In this light, try to place them in specialty they are interested in.  I know the reg. says assign positions based on member interest, commander and unit need, but.... If the unit needs an Admin officer, and you get a new senior that just is not a good fit, who are you helping.  I like the analogy about the square peg in the round hole.

Some members are never going to be more than casuals (babysitters, coffee makers) and as far as I'm concerned that's okay.  There should be a casual training track that provides those members the guidance they need to work around other volunteers and cadets safely.  Make these folks the backbone of the enlisted ranks (please don't make this about uniforms, and SrA or SSgt in polo is still an enlisted person, just as the Wing Commander in a polo is still a Col).  You want to wear bars or a lot of stipes, you need to pitch in.   

2.  If you changed the regs to incorporate only Composite Squadrons, I could see several things occurring:

A.  There would be squadrons that would refuse cadet applications.
B.  If command says you can't refuse cadet applications, we we would take an immediate dip in Sr. Membership.
C.  Cadet are good people, I used to be one!  But working with cadets at encampment, NCSA, or Mission is different than having them there all the time.  I know of several Sr. Units that train and operate efficiently BECAUSE they can concentrate on the mission of being a Sr Member.

PHall

I have a question for the wings that will only charter Composite units.
What do you do when someone wants to start a School Squadron?
By reg these are Cadet Squadrons.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: PHall on February 28, 2020, 05:07:46 pmI have a question for the wings that will only charter Composite units.
What do you do when someone wants to start a School Squadron?
By reg these are Cadet Squadrons.

Easy. Don't charter school squadrons. Why let an increase in membership get in the way of uniformity?

baronet68

Quote from: PHall on February 28, 2020, 05:07:46 pmI have a question for the wings that will only charter Composite units.
What do you do when someone wants to start a School Squadron?
By reg these are Cadet Squadrons.

In my neck of the woods, School Squadrons are a thing of legend and lore... no one's ever actually seen one and attempts to even raise the topic seem to fall upon deaf ears.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

Holding Pattern

Quote from: baronet68 on February 28, 2020, 05:50:54 pm
Quote from: PHall on February 28, 2020, 05:07:46 pmI have a question for the wings that will only charter Composite units.
What do you do when someone wants to start a School Squadron?
By reg these are Cadet Squadrons.

In my neck of the woods, School Squadrons are a thing of legend and lore... no one's ever actually seen one and attempts to even raise the topic seem to fall upon deaf ears.

And that's the reason you don't have 2 more squadrons with 50 more SMs and 300 more cadets on the East Side.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: baronet68 on February 28, 2020, 05:50:54 pmIn my neck of the woods, School Squadrons are a thing of legend and lore... no one's ever actually seen one and attempts to even raise the topic seem to fall upon deaf ears.

Same here. We have one school squadron in the Wing. I've heard of an area considering it, but I don't think we're going to see much come of it.


Quote from: catrulz on February 28, 2020, 01:01:36 pmSome members are never going to be more than casuals (babysitters, coffee makers) and as far as I'm concerned that's okay. 

The problem I have with senior members in that regard is that they tend to want to participate on their own terms and then get upset when they're not involved more. If I find you unreliably, and whiny, I'm not going to involve you beyond the role of a chaperon. It creates animosity in both directions.


Eclipse

^ This x10.

Lots of people want a business card to show their friends, far less are willing to do
the less fun jobs that keep the doors open, but even though they are barely around, and
not doing much of anything, their opinion is never in question because it is shared at every
opportunity, regardless of their level of involvement or information.