February 22, 2020, 01:50:48 pm

NCO or Officer?

Started by Semper_Fidelis, February 12, 2020, 12:27:44 am

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Semper_Fidelis

I am joining my local CAP as a Senior member and was told I had the option of going NCO of Officer.
I have prior service as a E-4 in the Marines. When do I decide if I want to go the officer or NCO route? I was told 6 months?

What are the advantages and disadvantages? I hope to eventually become a CAP pilot.

Thanks

Gunsotsu

Whether it's on your collar or on your sleeves, your grade is not a reflection of your ability in this organisation. Pick a lane and you'll soon realise the same.   

Holding Pattern

NCO track will let you take advantage of USAF NCO PME.

catrulz

Quote from: Semper_Fidelis on February 12, 2020, 12:27:44 amI am joining my local CAP as a Senior member and was told I had the option of going NCO of Officer.
I have prior service as a E-4 in the Marines. When do I decide if I want to go the officer or NCO route? I was told 6 months?

What are the advantages and disadvantages? I hope to eventually become a CAP pilot.

Thanks

The question you may want to ask yourself is:  Do I want to be a unit commander?

If the answer is yes or maybe, take bars.  Although there are promotions that occur with taking a Flight, Squadron, Group command, there are conditions to the grade appointments.  Also, I encourage doing the Professional Development for your intended direction.  That way you aren't trying to make up time later.

You must be Level I complete with 6mos to wear grade, unless you were E5 or higher.

Eclipse

Quote from: catrulz on February 12, 2020, 12:50:44 pmthere are conditions to the grade appointments.

What "conditions"?

The appointment to 1st Lt as a unit CC is the same as any other 1st Lt.  It's not temporary, conditional, brevet, etc. 
After the CC term, the member can choose to go back to "being an NCO", or retain the officer grade and work the PD program from there.

And >that< should pretty much indicate the non-existence of any "CAP NCO program", and
inform a new member's decision more then anything else.



catrulz

February 12, 2020, 02:56:19 pm #5 Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 03:05:07 pm by catrulz
Quote from: Eclipse on February 12, 2020, 02:26:58 pm
Quote from: catrulz on February 12, 2020, 12:50:44 pmthere are conditions to the grade appointments.

What "conditions"?

The appointment to 1st Lt as a unit CC is the same as any other 1st Lt.  It's not temporary, conditional, brevet, etc. 
After the CC term, the member can choose to go back to "being an NCO", or retain the officer grade and work the PD program from there.

And >that< should pretty much indicate the non-existence of any "CAP NCO program", and
inform a new member's decision more then anything else.

35-5 says appoint as Squadron Commander is 1stLT, I have seen several Flight commanders given 2ndLT (doesn't violate the regulation).  Group Commanders are appointed as Major)NOTE: AFIADL 13 or CAP Officer Basic Course must be completed prior to advancement to the grade of major).  Group requirement for major prior to the last change in 2016 required Level III completion.  So yes, there are some conditions.

THRAWN

Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Jester

I'm an NCO, I wouldn't have it any other way.  The obnoxious wailing and gnashing of teeth over it has basically become  white noise to me at this point, so I suggest you just ignore it as well. 

PM me if you want more info.  Otherwise this thread will devolve into a lot of white noise from people who are doing the actual work of an undertasked E-3 but want to wear shiny stuff.


kcebnaes

Quote from: Semper_Fidelis on February 12, 2020, 12:27:44 amI am joining my local CAP as a Senior member and was told I had the option of going NCO of Officer.
I have prior service as a E-4 in the Marines. When do I decide if I want to go the officer or NCO route? I was told 6 months?

What are the advantages and disadvantages? I hope to eventually become a CAP pilot.

Honestly, I've been trying to push the NCO side to those that can. I go through the big differences (can't really be a commander.) Once they decide, we go over what their interests are, and see how we can use them as an NCO. I base those conversations on the thinking "what kind of hands-on, mentoring type job" would they succeed in. MY goal is to treat NCOs like NCOs. I know the regs don't give us much differentiation in positions, but as long as everyone is happy, we're happy.

Anyways, on your original question: advantages and disadvantages. To be fully honest, this will majorly depend on the local command team, and their intent. NCOs in my group are a totally different flavor than a group across the Wing, or even other Wings. So be prepared to not have something set in stone. Not all command teams have experience with utilizing the NCOs.

From what I get, right now, it's more of what YOU want to do. Do you want to come in as a CAP Staff Sergeant, or a CAP 2d Lt?
Sean Beck, Maj, CAP
Ohio Wing, Group 6 Commander
Various Other Thingsā„¢

Holding Pattern

Quote from: kcebnaes on February 12, 2020, 03:46:37 pm
Quote from: Semper_Fidelis on February 12, 2020, 12:27:44 amI am joining my local CAP as a Senior member and was told I had the option of going NCO of Officer.
I have prior service as a E-4 in the Marines. When do I decide if I want to go the officer or NCO route? I was told 6 months?

What are the advantages and disadvantages? I hope to eventually become a CAP pilot.

Honestly, I've been trying to push the NCO side to those that can. I go through the big differences (can't really be a commander.)

Honestly they should be using this as the main selling point.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Jester on February 12, 2020, 03:36:25 pmI'm an NCO, I wouldn't have it any other way.  The obnoxious wailing and gnashing of teeth over it has basically become  white noise to me at this point, so I suggest you just ignore it as well. 

PM me if you want more info.  Otherwise this thread will devolve into a lot of white noise from people who are doing the actual work of an undertasked E-3 but want to wear shiny stuff.

But, wouldn't the corollary of that be that we also have "...people who are doing the actual work of an undertasked E-3 but want to wear stripey stuff?" If so - what's your point?



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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Phil Hirons, Jr.

I removed Mitchell 1969's duplicate post.

Jester

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on February 13, 2020, 07:41:55 am
Quote from: Jester on February 12, 2020, 03:36:25 pmI'm an NCO, I wouldn't have it any other way.  The obnoxious wailing and gnashing of teeth over it has basically become  white noise to me at this point, so I suggest you just ignore it as well. 

PM me if you want more info.  Otherwise this thread will devolve into a lot of white noise from people who are doing the actual work of an undertasked E-3 but want to wear shiny stuff.

But, wouldn't the corollary of that be that we also have "...people who are doing the actual work of an undertasked E-3 but want to wear stripey stuff?" If so - what's your point?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My answer would be that every one joins as an CAP Airman Basic and progresses to SrA before deciding to go NCO or officer, with a different track for each and increased barriers for entry into the officer track such as command approval.

If we want to keep the AF rank structure, we need to actually use it and not just the parts we feel like.  Otherwise, just go the USCGAux route and scrap the whole thing. 

Eclipse

Quote from: Jester on February 13, 2020, 03:31:14 pmMy answer would be that every one joins as an CAP Airman Basic and progresses to SrA before deciding to go NCO or officer, with a different track for each and increased barriers for entry into the officer track such as command approval.

If we want to keep the AF rank structure, we need to actually use it and not just the parts we feel like.  Otherwise, just go the USCGAux route and scrap the whole thing. 

This idea breaks it even worse - people don't join the USAF, serve a year+ as an enlisted Airman, and then decide
"Hm, think I'll be an ocifer!"

It also doesn't in any way accommodate the fact (which isn't changing), that members join and become commanders
before their ID is received because of manpower shortages. When SrA Snuffy is the only one left who will be the CC or the charter folds, "meet 1st Lt Snuffy!".

There is no fix in that context.  None.

It's a full reboot, take a year off to fix things and probably drop the grades, or just soldier on as is, which is fine, and stop pretending there's ever going to be an NCO "program" in CAP.



Eclipse

Seems to be a "double-posting issue with the new digs...



PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on February 13, 2020, 04:38:28 pmThis idea breaks it even worse - people don't join the USAF, serve a year+ as an enlisted Airman, and then decide
"Hm, think I'll be an ocifer!"


Actually some do exactly that. Almost every OTS class has enlisted personnel who are earning their commissions.

Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on February 13, 2020, 04:51:56 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 13, 2020, 04:38:28 pmThis idea breaks it even worse - people don't join the USAF, serve a year+ as an enlisted Airman, and then decide
"Hm, think I'll be an ocifer!"


Actually some do exactly that. Almost every OTS class has enlisted personnel who are earning their commissions.

That's not the same thing and you know it, and further, citing something that is an edge
case even in the military isn't useful to this conversation.



Ned

Quote from: Eclipse on February 13, 2020, 04:38:28 pm[ . . . ]just soldier on as is, which is fine, and stop pretending there's ever going to be an NCO "program" in CAP.

I'm with you on that.  There doesn't need to be justification for an "NCO Program" anymore than there needs to be justification for an "Officer Program."  Which is probably a good thing, since we don't have an "officer program" per se.

We just have volunteers, both officer and NCO, performing their assigned duties in support of our Congressionally-assigned missions.  Thus we continue to soldier on as we always have, saving lives, educating folks, and running an outstanding cadet program.

Maybe Spaatz, Curry, and LaGuardia were right when they established a CAP with both officers and NCOs.

YMMV.

MSG Mac

Somewhere in the archives, there has to be the NCO Training and manning tables to use as a template for the current program. 
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

etodd

February 14, 2020, 12:47:47 am #19 Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 01:09:51 am by etodd
Quote from: Jester on February 13, 2020, 03:31:14 pmOtherwise, just go the USCGAux route and scrap the whole thing. 

Keep it for Cadets.

Fine with me to scrap it for Seniors. Civilian volunteers with jobs to do. Concentrate on improving skills and training, and the mission at hand, and eliminate all the hand wringing over ribbons, titles and shiny shoes.

Yes, we might lose a bunch right away ... but we would then gain quite a few that had been turned off by it. I dare say over 5 years we would see huge growth.

(But yes, I know the AF would never allow it.)

MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: etodd on February 14, 2020, 12:47:47 am
Quote from: Jester on February 13, 2020, 03:31:14 pmOtherwise, just go the USCGAux route and scrap the whole thing. 

Keep it for Cadets.


There's also the ROTC structure for cadet grades where your advancement is based on your time in the program and duty position held, not test-taking and personal achievements. To stay in, you have to take the tests and complete your assignments. Grade is commensurate with rank and tasking, and you'll bounce around. One semester you might be the Operations Officer (C/O-4), and another semester, you might be the senior NCO (C/E-9). It's a rotation of duties to learn the practical application of the command structure and training facilitation.

What we need to understand is the difference between mimicking a staff structure (because that's what the real world looks like) and the needs of a training curriculum and hands-on lessons in leadership.

catrulz

I believe the idea behind the SM Grade, Bling (Badges/Ribbons/Medals/Patches), and PD methodology, is playing to the psychology behind Motivating Factors.

Spent hours on the topic of motivating a team in BNCOC. With the point being that the major motivating factors are unit cohesion, rewards and punishment.  Rewards don't necessarily have to be bling, but that's probably the easiest method for CAP.  The bling provides a method for the member to feel accomplished or fulfilled. Telling someone they did a great job and they are valued can be a motivator.   

Yes, I agree I'm sure folks like he who blocks out the sun do not need and such foolishness.  But these concepts are based on team dynamic.

Edit: Spelling

Fubar

Quote from: etodd on February 14, 2020, 12:47:47 am(But yes, I know the AF would never allow it.)

I doubt anyone at the AF would notice if we dumped their uniforms. It's definitely not up to them.

I also doubt the AF would care (because it's not up to them) if we ditched the paramilitary two-tier grade structure.

I'd become a NCO tomorrow if someone let me. I'm tired of being in charge all the time because nobody else will step up. I'd love to have a built-in excuse.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on February 13, 2020, 02:18:54 pmI removed Mitchell 1969's duplicate post.

Thanks. I have no idea how that happened.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

jeders

Quote from: Fubar on February 15, 2020, 02:14:50 amI'd become a NCO tomorrow if someone let me. I'm tired of being in charge all the time because nobody else will step up. I'd love to have a built-in excuse.

Trust me, being an NCO wont change the fact that no one else would step up. And if you would really sit back and let the program fail just because you don't want to be in charge, what does that say about you?
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

NEBoom

Quote from: jeders on February 15, 2020, 02:36:25 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 15, 2020, 02:14:50 amI'd become a NCO tomorrow if someone let me. I'm tired of being in charge all the time because nobody else will step up. I'd love to have a built-in excuse.

Trust me, being an NCO wont change the fact that no one else would step up. And if you would really sit back and let the program fail just because you don't want to be in charge, what does that say about you?

That he finally got burned out?
Lt Col Dan Kirwan, CAP
Nebraska Wing

West MI-CAP-Ret

Quote from: NEBoom on February 15, 2020, 05:25:54 pm
Quote from: jeders on February 15, 2020, 02:36:25 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 15, 2020, 02:14:50 amI'd become a NCO tomorrow if someone let me. I'm tired of being in charge all the time because nobody else will step up. I'd love to have a built-in excuse.

Trust me, being an NCO wont change the fact that no one else would step up. And if you would really sit back and let the program fail just because you don't want to be in charge, what does that say about you?

That he finally got burned out?

I was just thinking the same thing.  If I was in a squadron where no one steps up, then I'd say there's command failure.  If the person feels they're always tired of being the "guy" who always steps up, then I'd say, stop stepping up!  Having been an AF nco (medically retired due contracting MS), NCOs' job is to be the force behind the organization.  People get burned out because there's a bunch of followers or perhaps see CAP as a social club.  The commander needs to keep track as to who is doing what, and make sure everyone on their team feels appreciated and valued.  Tired of CAP because you're burned out?  Do what you love and let the rest go.  If you don't, you'll stop loving CAP and leave.  All because you tried to do it all because you saw a need.  That parts good.  The bad part is that the burned out person never took the time to communicate their needs. But if they had a good commander they wouldn't have to do that.
MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP (Ret) 8 Apr 2018
A former member of:
West Michigan Group MI-703,
Hudsonville Cadet Sqdron MI-135
Lakeshore Cadet Sqdrn MI-119
Van Dyke Cadet Sqdrn, MI-117

West MI-CAP-Ret

Quote from: West MI-CAP-Ret on February 15, 2020, 10:30:10 pm
Quote from: NEBoom on February 15, 2020, 05:25:54 pm
Quote from: jeders on February 15, 2020, 02:36:25 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 15, 2020, 02:14:50 amI'd become a NCO tomorrow if someone let me. I'm tired of being in charge all the time because nobody else will step up. I'd love to have a built-in excuse.

Trust me, being an NCO wont change the fact that no one else would step up. And if you would really sit back and let the program fail just because you don't want to be in charge, what does that say about you?

That he finally got burned out?

I was just thinking the same thing.  If I was in a squadron where no one steps up, then I'd say there's command failure.  If the person feels they're always tired of being the "guy" who always steps up, then I'd say, stop stepping up!  Having been an AF nco (medically retired due contracting MS), NCOs' job is to be the force behind the organization.  People get burned out because there's a bunch of followers or perhaps see CAP as a social club.  The commander needs to keep track as to who is doing what, and make sure everyone on their team feels appreciated and valued.  Tired of CAP because you're burned out?  Do what you love and let the rest go.  If you don't, you'll stop loving CAP and leave.  All because you tried to do it all because you saw a need.  That parts good.  The bad part is that the burned out person never took the time to communicate their needs. But if they had a good commander they wouldn't have to do that.
MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP (Ret) 8 Apr 2018
A former member of:
West Michigan Group MI-703,
Hudsonville Cadet Sqdron MI-135
Lakeshore Cadet Sqdrn MI-119
Van Dyke Cadet Sqdrn, MI-117