What’s with the lack of encampments?

Started by glm705, February 02, 2020, 02:51:57 am

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glm705

CAP's encampment list says that all encampment information is due by 1 February, but less than half the wings have information on there.

Is it always like this?


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Eclipse

Yes.

Depending on any number of variables, there are ~45 encampments in a given calendar year.
More then a few don't have firm dates, staffing set, or other critical issues decided
enough to post a firm date people would use to plan time off etc. by the first.

Many of the remainders will have their dates posted in the coming weeks, and
any number will not post there at all.

If you're concerned re: a particular Wing's encampment, contact the CP Directorate in that
wing directly.



CAP9907

Quote from: Eclipse on February 02, 2020, 03:48:59 amYes.


More then a few don't have firm dates, staffing set, or other critical issues decided
enough to post a firm date people would use to plan time off etc. by the first.



^^^  This.

My Wing happens to be completely dependent on the local ANG Base W/R/T scheduling: they don't know what their summer availability is yet, so we cannot make any firm plans.

Also, 'due by' dates can be misleading: 'due' to who? NHQ, Region HQ, the Member?


9907
21 yrs of service

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McDaddy2003

Texas Wing has an issue of Running out of Encampment Slots. With Summer and Winter encampments, roughly 25-30% of our basic cadets are from out of state.

We had a cadet apply and get placed on standby, and apply again in winter and get placed on standby again. Kid has been a CMSgt for almost a year.

IMO in-state cadets should have priority over Out-of-state cadets.

jeders

Quote from: McDaddy2003 on February 16, 2020, 01:40:26 amTexas Wing has an issue of Running out of Encampment Slots. With Summer and Winter encampments, roughly 25-30% of our basic cadets are from out of state.

We had a cadet apply and get placed on standby, and apply again in winter and get placed on standby again. Kid has been a CMSgt for almost a year.

IMO in-state cadets should have priority over Out-of-state cadets.

It would help if TXWG CP would stop holding encampments at sites that they have been told cannot handle our numbers and instead go back to NG Training Centers that are designed to hold large itinerant training populations. But instead, the entire CP staff as well as the wing CC would rather make themselves look good by saying, "look at us, our encampments are on Lackland" (which has only happened once because, surprise, Lackland doesn't have the available facilities to support us; so we keep getting pushed over to Bullis.)
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Quote from: McDaddy2003 on February 16, 2020, 01:40:26 amIMO in-state cadets should have priority over Out-of-state cadets.

100% agree, and that goes double for cadre, especially at the top slots.

I simply do not understand this preoccupation with encampment tourism.



Fester

TXWG has only held an Encampment at Lackland once?  Lucky me, I guess, my first Encampment in TXWG was at Lackland.  '93 or '94.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Stonewall

Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2020, 02:00:00 amI simply do not understand this preoccupation with encampment tourism.

I agree that in-state cadets should have priority, but I also know that to be stuck with a single option of dates, for some (maybe more than some), extremely limits ones ability to attend their wing's encampment.

Secondly, going to other wings to experience encampment, especially after experiencing one in your own wing, is a great way to see how others do things, gain a different perspective, learn best/worse practices, and simply see another way.

Some wings get encampment right, others don't. And some simply check the boxes. I say get out there and explore, but not at the expense of the host wing's cadets.

jeders

Quote from: Fester on February 16, 2020, 07:21:16 amTXWG has only held an Encampment at Lackland once?  Lucky me, I guess, my first Encampment in TXWG was at Lackland.  '93 or '94.

I should clarify, only once since wing leadership most recently started trying to hold it on Lackland. 4 attempts at holding it on there, and only once was it accomplished (with a cap on the number of attendees).

Prior to '01/'02 we were able to hold summer encampment on Lackland, Randolph, and other Air Force bases because they weren't nearly as highly utilized. That is no longer the case. Our largest and most successful encampments have been at NG Training Centers.

I absolutely agree with Stonewall and Eclipse regarding in-state cadet students. However, I think that if the best candidate for Cadet Commander comes from out-of-state, then that's who you go with; because they are the best, not because they're local.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Quote from: jeders on February 16, 2020, 02:48:51 pmI absolutely agree with Stonewall and Eclipse regarding in-state cadet students. However, I think that if the best candidate for Cadet Commander comes from out-of-state, then that's who you go with; because they are the best, not because they're local.

That pre-supposes that the goal of the encampment is to run a perfect encampment.

It's not.

With ES / Real worlds, you want the A-Players and should take them from wherever they can come from,
but the CP is all about learning and growth, not perfection, if anything, failure, or at least struggling,
is the intention to get everyone, including the adults, out of their comfort zone and into the growth area.

It's something I've been struggling with for the last few years, this year especially - you build a staff where everyone is comfortable, knows the in jokes, and 3/4 of the activity is boilerplate. That's great until Jane leaves, and Jack goes with her, Johnny's tired of the same job, and the downstream people get wind things are changing and bolt.  There's no bench because it's been all ringers, and an activity can dissolve in a year.

We all know how cyclical and based on timing the CP is due to cadets being perishable. Bringing in ringers from other wings robs a local cadet(s) of that opportunity, not to mention sending the training they receive back outside the wing, and despite NHQ's efforts to the contrary, not to mention venue specific issues, most encampments are, and will continue to be, islands,

Any wing that can't find enough cadets to staff the cadre of an encampment needs to look long and hard at what the problem is.

And while things happen and you have occasional edge cases, you're never going to convince me that bringing in a ringer from 2 regions away is better then giving a local cadet the opportunity.

It's one thing if students, support, or SET cadets want to experience another venue and learn about other wings, but we've seen cadets who do their student year at "home", and then staff 4 encampments a year elsewhere and never come back to their home wings. That's encampment tourism, and is >great< for the respective cadet, and not so much for the local ones.

And further to that, we've seen more then a few cadets with amazing resumes, and poor actual abilities, due, in my opinion to the lack of continuity, and that many encampments just hand them a script, paint foot prints on the floor and say "stand here".They aren't coming back, and there's little accountability or communication between wings, so poor execution is just propped up to "get through this" and it's never spoken of again.

How is a new C/Capt with 2 encampments going to stack up against a C/Lt Col with 10, 3 as c/CC?  The double diamond is just filling up his passport with stamps, while the triple pip is invested in that activity, but ages out in a year. He's not coming back and never gets the experience.

And to compound the issue, many of these traveling cadets are so hyper-involved and over-scheduled that they don't have the time to give any one of the activities their full attention, often going directly from one to another, and having to ask for special allowances regarding arrival or exit times, etc.



Fester

Quote from: jeders on February 16, 2020, 02:48:51 pm
Quote from: Fester on February 16, 2020, 07:21:16 amTXWG has only held an Encampment at Lackland once?  Lucky me, I guess, my first Encampment in TXWG was at Lackland.  '93 or '94.

I should clarify, only once since wing leadership most recently started trying to hold it on Lackland. 4 attempts at holding it on there, and only once was it accomplished (with a cap on the number of attendees).

Prior to '01/'02 we were able to hold summer encampment on Lackland, Randolph, and other Air Force bases because they weren't nearly as highly utilized. That is no longer the case. Our largest and most successful encampments have been at NG Training Centers.

I absolutely agree with Stonewall and Eclipse regarding in-state cadet students. However, I think that if the best candidate for Cadet Commander comes from out-of-state, then that's who you go with; because they are the best, not because they're local.

As a cadet, I did one on Lackland, one on Randolph, one on Vandenberg, two on Ft. Sill and two on NG installations.  I would agree that NG installations are usually easier to make happen and can handle more numbers, but they don't even compete with the available activities of an AD base.  And the intangibles of an AD base (that "feel" and atmosphere of being on a bustling base) are far and beyond what you get on an NG installation.

Just my two cents.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

TheSkyHornet

Eclipse is on point.

I see the more "experienced" (familiar) cadets in my wing attending Encampment as a rite of passage; an entitlement. For many, it's about attending year after year to move up and someday become the Encampment Cadet Commander (or Director/Officer-in-Charge of a particular area). And they structure it with a staff of "deputies" to carry out most of the officer work while the cadet commanders/OICs treat it like a fraternity. I've seen cadet captains and majors seek to staff Encampment rather than attending COS or RCLS because it's more important that they stand out rather than learn to lead others.

There are many great cadets that have a lot of potential, and do a remarkable job at Encampment. But I see the majority of it being used to compete for a job and say that they were in charge of something, rather than actually trying to learn practical leadership application and re-teach it later on for the next batch of cadets that comes after.

I'm an Encampment pessimist with the training curriculum and execution that I've seen in the past. They're trying to make changes this year to get it 'back on track,' but I'm very skeptical with the culture we've had in past Encampments where the cadets 'run the show' and act like "this is MY Encampment." That attitude needs to die off.

Fubar

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 17, 2020, 02:45:33 pmI'm an Encampment pessimist with the training curriculum and execution that I've seen in the past. They're trying to make changes this year to get it 'back on track,' but I'm very skeptical with the culture we've had in past Encampments where the cadets 'run the show' and act like "this is MY Encampment." That attitude needs to die off.

I just checked NHQ's encampment page, the pamphlet was last updated in Nov which states, "This publication replaces the March 2017 edition but contains NO SUBSTANTIVE CHANGES."

What changes did that make for this year?

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Fubar on February 17, 2020, 08:34:56 pmI just checked NHQ's encampment page, the pamphlet was last updated in Nov which states, "This publication replaces the March 2017 edition but contains NO SUBSTANTIVE CHANGES."

What changes did that make for this year?

I'm referring to the management (and culture) of the wing encampment, not the regulatory aspect of it.

Kayll'b

I applied to 3 encampments this year, all outside of my wing (because it overlaps with COS).
Why did I apply to 3? because I want to train and mentor cadets in leadership, and frankly, encampment is one of the best ways to do that.
While I do get your points that other cadets need experience, I just want to teach cadets how to be the future leaders of America.
C/1st Lt

Mitchell # 69847

Squadron Cadet Leadership officer

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