When Did We Start Replacing Member-Owned With AF-Procured Aircraft?

Started by ProdigalJim, January 02, 2020, 01:05:37 am

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Bayareaflyer 44

Quote from: PHall on January 03, 2020, 09:25:26 pm
The fleet back then wasn't anywhere near the 550+ we have today.


Not to quibble at all, but reading thru the report there is a tidbit of interest in the number of aircraft CAP had at the time.  Hope the screen capture comes thru, but 545 corporate A/C & 9583 member owned?  Darn big fleet!

1985 Annual Report to Congress - wow - trip down memory lane!  I was on the back cover of that report.  Thanks for posting that.


Earhart #2546
GRW     #3418

etodd

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Fester

Quote from: Eclipse on January 02, 2020, 11:46:33 pm
Similar in the MidWest where I've been told that at major military bases we lost during BRAC,
there had at times been 15 aircraft assigned at one alone, of course that's much easier to say
when they are MOAs.

By 99 when I joined MOAs were no longer a thing, and while still allowed for under some circumstances
I've never seen one used, nor justified, since I joined.


I remember numerous occasions between 92 and 97 when I saw MOA used.  In fact, in 97, I organized and ran an ORide Day for cadets from 4 squadrons which used 1 COA and 4 MOA.
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SarDragon

My unit used an MOA back around 2001 for o-rides, and it was no big deal. The pilot and plane were available, and we had a fine Saturday afternoon. Pilot and I flew from San Diego to Long Beach, did o-rides, and we flew home via Cabrillo for $100 hamburgers.
Dave Bowles
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50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
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radioguy

Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 02, 2020, 11:33:53 pm
I can only speak for NJ wing.

When I  became a cadet in 1970, most aircraft were member owned.



I was a cadet in south Jersey in the early sixties (yeah... I'm old) and our one and only aircraft was a CAP Aeronca L-16.


Bayareaflyer 44

I believe the answer to the question of "when was there a policy shift" could be answered as this:

I was flying my MOA for O-rides as late as July 2010.  Then, a new version of the CAPR 60-1 came out, and mandated that all MOA have a "copy of the airworthiness certificate, current Hold Harmless Agreement (HHA) and CAPF 71 are on file with the CAP-USAF LR for AFAMs or the Wing Commander or designee for Corporate Missions" (still stands today).

Well, that basically took MOA out of the A mission business since most folks didn't want that hassle (including me) from that point forward. 



Earhart #2546
GRW     #3418

Eclipse

2010?

Was this an CAWG anomaly due to have a large group of cadets with no COAs reasonably nearby?
9.2.1. is a fairly sacrosanct policy that few Wing CC's would bypass in a world of 200hr per a/c mandates
and a shrinking mission set.

The 71 was the only thing added in 2010, the other approvals were still needed, and after seeing
how some pilots treaty COAs, the lack of detail someone not wiling to do a 71 would show is one of the
reasons I'd never get in an MOA for a mission.



etodd

What seems to be missing is access to invoices from Cessna.  When was the first large order?  As in 10-20 brand new planes a year, like we see now. We know that it could have started in 1985, but don't see any records of exactly when we started this process of large yearly orders.

Who was the lucky salesman at Cessna that got the first order? LOL
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NIN

Quote from: etodd on January 04, 2020, 10:14:28 pm
What seems to be missing is access to invoices from Cessna.  When was the first large order?  As in 10-20 brand new planes a year, like we see now. We know that it could have started in 1985, but don't see any records of exactly when we started this process of large yearly orders.

Who was the lucky salesman at Cessna that got the first order? LOL
Wasn't in 1985.

Cessna didn't restart the single engine line until, what, '96?

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Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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SarDragon

From what I can find, Cessna didn't build little airplanes from 1985/86 ti 1996.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Luis R. Ramos

Is there a possibility that CAP has had corporate aircraft that were high-wing but not Cessnas during the time that Cessnas was not building high wings in 1986-1996? And after Cessnas became available, withdraw them from service? Pipers or from Taylorcraft, and this could have spurred a Cessna order.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Ohioguard

NHQ bought newer used aircraft, most if not all were Cessna a/c.  Once Cessna got through the liability issues and it was profitable, they open the production lines again.


JCW
50 yr member

ZigZag911

Quote from: radioguy on January 04, 2020, 03:39:01 pm
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 02, 2020, 11:33:53 pm
I can only speak for NJ wing.

When I  became a cadet in 1970, most aircraft were member owned.



I was a cadet in south Jersey in the early sixties (yeah... I'm old) and our one and only aircraft was a CAP Aeronca L-16.


Your squadron probably had  regular use of one of those rare corporate aircraft.

It's likely that someone from Wing Ops was also connected to your unit.

etodd

Quote from: NIN on January 05, 2020, 05:13:11 am
Quote from: etodd on January 04, 2020, 10:14:28 pm
What seems to be missing is access to invoices from Cessna.  When was the first large order?  As in 10-20 brand new planes a year, like we see now. We know that it could have started in 1985, but don't see any records of exactly when we started this process of large yearly orders.

Who was the lucky salesman at Cessna that got the first order? LOL
Wasn't in 1985.

Cessna didn't restart the single engine line until, what, '96?



Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

NIN

Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2020, 01:57:29 am
Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK


1998-1999, likely.

First brandy new Cessna I ever saw up close and personal like (probably 25hrs on the Hobbs) was N913CP, a 1999 model C172. And I'm pretty sure 913 wasn't in the first batch we bought.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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CAP9907

Quote from: NIN on January 06, 2020, 02:07:03 am
Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2020, 01:57:29 am
Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK


1998-1999, likely.

First brandy new Cessna I ever saw up close and personal like (probably 25hrs on the Hobbs) was N913CP, a 1999 model C172. And I'm pretty sure 913 wasn't in the first batch we bought.


And today, 913CP is our primary A/C for Cadet flight instruction and flying quite often.   :)
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Eclipse

My wing / unit took delivery of N905CP (also a 99 172) in early 2000 with like 13 hours on it,
and it was a HUGE deal, like "we've never had a 'new' plane before" and "no one is allowed to eat in here" big deal.



FW

Quote from: NIN on January 06, 2020, 02:07:03 am
Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2020, 01:57:29 am
Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK


1998-1999, likely.

First brandy new Cessna I ever saw up close and personal like (probably 25hrs on the Hobbs) was N913CP, a 1999 model C172. And I'm pretty sure 913 wasn't in the first batch we bought.

First shipment of new Cessna C172 aircraft were delivered to CAP in, I think, September of 1997.  I was one of the ferry pilots.  We all met at the factory, took a tour, had a "shakedown" flight and flew home with our new "toys".. mine got as far as Batavia before a electrical fire stranded me at "Sporty's"..  I remember that flight very well..... First new C182's were delivered in 1999.  C206's came shortly after.

Spam

Quote from: FW on January 06, 2020, 03:46:26 am
Quote from: NIN on January 06, 2020, 02:07:03 am
Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2020, 01:57:29 am
Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK


1998-1999, likely.

First brandy new Cessna I ever saw up close and personal like (probably 25hrs on the Hobbs) was N913CP, a 1999 model C172. And I'm pretty sure 913 wasn't in the first batch we bought.

First shipment of new Cessna C172 aircraft were delivered to CAP in, I think, September of 1997.  I was one of the ferry pilots.  We all met at the factory, took a tour, had a "shakedown" flight and flew home with our new "toys".. mine got as far as Batavia before a electrical fire stranded me at "Sporty's"..  I remember that flight very well..... First new C182's were delivered in 1999.  C206's came shortly after.



Sounds like that was definitely not a Code One jet!

Had that been any other DoD aircraft, the Kansas DPRO *(Defense Plant Representative Officer, in the 1990s) would have been hammering down the door of the VP for Production, the next morning!

Glad you were ok. I had an electrical fire in a new jet myself (sigh).
Spam



NIN

Quote from: CAP9907 on January 06, 2020, 02:15:30 am
And today, 913CP is our primary A/C for Cadet flight instruction and flying quite often.   :)


Nice. Glad she's doing yeoman service for you guys down there. :)

"New airplane smell" is a thing I learned from that plane.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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