When Did We Start Replacing Member-Owned With AF-Procured Aircraft?

Started by ProdigalJim, January 02, 2020, 01:05:37 am

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ProdigalJim

Hi Gang,

Yeah, yeah, been awhile...

I've been searching through the Thomas database of all congressional actions to try to find the first bill when CAP started acquiring the Cessna 182/172 fleet that we have today. When I was a cadet, we were mostly member-owned (1979-1983). By the time I came back in in 2011, we were mostly CAP-owned. There was a policy shift between when I left and when I returned, and so what I'm trying to find is the legislative history of that policy shift.

I'm pretty well-grounded in the current process and I understand how the flow of appropriated dollars goes from USAF to CAP for aircraft and so on.

I have plenty of database access, but so far it's been needle in a haystack. If anyone can give me a year when it all started to happen, that would help me narrow down my legislative search. And if anyone remembers a key sponsor or co-sponsor, that would be even better.

Thanks in advance,
Jim Mathews, Maj., CAP
Commander, VAWG Group 3
My Mitchell Has Four Digits...

PHall

We had lots of CAP owned aircraft when I first joined CAP in 1969. Matter of fact, at least in California Wing, at least 80% of the aircraft were CAP owned.
Even back then it was just a few aircraft that were member owned.  Most of the CAP aircraft weren't brand new Cessnas back then, they were DOD surplus aircraft like O-1's, T-34A's, L-5's and stuff like that.

NIN

Was that the so called "CAP Supply Bill" that kicked off the corp aircraft purchases? Start there, Speedy
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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ProdigalJim

Jim Mathews, Maj., CAP
Commander, VAWG Group 3
My Mitchell Has Four Digits...

NIN

May not be as good a steer as I hoped.

The Supply Bill is PL 557, which is also the law that made CAP the auxiliary of the Air Force. In 1948.

I swear (and I could be completely wrong about this) that there was some legislation in the late 1970s/early 1980s that was like "The New CAP Supply Bill" or something.  As a cadet in the 80s, the "CAP Supply Bill" was thrown around quite a bit, almost like there was a contemporaneous or recent update to it.

Since 2000, PL 398 clarified our auxiliary status, funding, the board of governors, etc. From this the Statement of Work and Cooperative Agreements laid out a much more structured framework for CAP funding, payments, etc.

Of course, for a period of time, Cessna was not manufacturing new piston singles in the mid-to-late 1980s and early 1990s, so anything we were getting "new to us" was going to be "used."



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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sardak

The background section of the "Joint Report,  Air Force-Civil Air Patrol Funding Policies, Procedures and Relationship," paragraph (c) includes this:

c. Appropriated funding to CAP for procurement began in 1985 and led to a build-up of communications assets, aircraft and vehicle fleets.  This corresponded with the dwindling supply of usable excess military aircraft and related equipment available to CAP via the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office process.

That was probably another "CAP Supply Bill" in 1985.

Mike


NIN

As usual, a casual reading of annual defense authorization acts from back then reveals interesting language.

Example, PL 98-525 from October 1984:


Or PL 99-661 from 1985:
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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Spaceman3750

Cornell has a good, searchable index of US Code. Maybe try punching Civil Air Patrol into that if you haven't already?

Spam

Quote from: NIN on January 02, 2020, 12:12:32 pm
...  As a cadet in the 80s, the "CAP Supply Bill" was thrown around quite a bit, almost like there was a contemporaneous or recent update to it.


You know how these things went... they probably were referring to a guy named Bill who ran Supply at the Bookstore or the old CAP Depot!

:o




NIN

Speaking of member owned aircraft



After seeing this one on one of the Facebook pages, I'm more led to believe that this is a member-owned airplane.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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PHall

Quote from: NIN on January 02, 2020, 08:25:04 pm
Speaking of member owned aircraft



After seeing this one on one of the Facebook pages, I'm more led to believe that this is a member-owned airplane.


Registered to Jet Tech Holdings in Littleton, CO.

Looking at the top of the vertical stabilizer I see an "old school" Spaatz ribbon and what appears to be a Air Force Academy seal.
Has the CAP seal on the side of the fuselage which last time I looked was a no-no.

Dwight Dutton

Quote from: NIN on January 02, 2020, 08:25:04 pm
Speaking of member owned aircraft
After seeing this one on one of the Facebook pages, I'm more led to believe that this is a member-owned airplane.


Owned by a current or retired Seabee, I'm guessing.

ZigZag911

I can only speak for NJ wing.

When I  became a cadet in 1970, most aircraft were member owned.

That remained the case well into the 80s, as I  recall serving as aircrew on member owned AC  as late as 1985, and hearing about their use in ES until at least 1988.

I  had little involvement in ES for nearly 10 years...when I had the time to get actively engaged again around 1998, all the CAP aircraft  were Corporate owned, and use of member aircraft  was practically unheard of.

Based on this, I'd estimate the changeover became widespread between 1990 and 1995.


Eclipse

Similar in the MidWest where I've been told that at major military bases we lost during BRAC,
there had at times been 15 aircraft assigned at one alone, of course that's much easier to say
when they are MOAs.

By 99 when I joined MOAs were no longer a thing, and while still allowed for under some circumstances
I've never seen one used, nor justified, since I joined.



etodd

1985 Annual Report to Congress.   First paragraph of page 24, shows the 1984 Supply Bill was the first time we could purchase light aircraft, outside of previously just procuring excess DOD equipment.

https://presspage-production-content.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/1913/1985report.pdf?10000

By 1994 the budget for aircraft acquisition was $3.6 million.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

docsteve

For what it's worth, when I joined as a cadet in 1970, New York Wing's Long Island Group had, at AYZ, a PA-18, a T-34, and a couple of 172s, all with tail numbers NxxxNY; all aircraft were corporate,   On the other side of the field was Northeast Region's T-34.   There was also a T-29 at ISP, but it used an AF call sign.  By 1973 there was a NYW Beaver  (which crashed on the frozen Black River,  no serious injuries), and by the late 70s there was an Otter assigned to Region, the latter two obviously surplus, along with the T-34s, but the 172s were not former T-41s as at least one was a flat back.
Steve Sconfienza, Ph.D.
former captain

ZigZag911

As the previous poster said, this fits with my recollection - in the  70s and 80s, the corporate aircraft were military surplus, and generally  assigned to wing HQ....and there weren't many of them,

PHall

The fleet back then wasn't anywhere near the 550+ we have today.

NIN

Quote from: PHall on January 02, 2020, 10:34:17 pm
Looking at the top of the vertical stabilizer I see an "old school" Spaatz ribbon and what appears to be a Air Force Academy seal.
Has the CAP seal on the side of the fuselage which last time I looked was a no-no.


I'm kind of guessing that back when that photo was taken, things were a bit more loosey-goosey as far as markings on member-owned airplanes.

I am reminded of a line from the late Pat McCormick, that I'll paraphrase here: "Any man that'd paint his airplane like that would go to a minister's funeral dressed in feathers."

You know how this conversation went. 

J. Rando Captain flies into a mission base in his thusly marked and very spiffy Rockwell International Commander 112TC.

Mission Coordinator: "Hey, you know buddy, you can't have all those markings on your plane like that.. Its not a CAP plane."
J. Rando Captain: "I spent big bucks having that paint job done!"
MC: "Alright, I'm just saying."





Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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PHall

Quote from: NIN on January 03, 2020, 09:38:24 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 02, 2020, 10:34:17 pm
Looking at the top of the vertical stabilizer I see an "old school" Spaatz ribbon and what appears to be a Air Force Academy seal.
Has the CAP seal on the side of the fuselage which last time I looked was a no-no.


I'm kind of guessing that back when that photo was taken, things were a bit more loosey-goosey as far as markings on member-owned airplanes.

I am reminded of a line from the late Pat McCormick, that I'll paraphrase here: "Any man that'd paint his airplane like that would go to a minister's funeral dressed in feathers."

You know how this conversation went. 

J. Rando Captain flies into a mission base in his thusly marked and very spiffy Rockwell International Commander 112TC.

Mission Coordinator: "Hey, you know buddy, you can't have all those markings on your plane like that.. Its not a CAP plane."
J. Rando Captain: "I spent big bucks having that paint job done!"
MC: "Alright, I'm just saying."


Actually there were some quite specific rules on what "CAP" markings could be on a member owned aircraft if they wanted to use it and get paid on a CAP mission.
About the only CAP marking allowed was the CAP logo with the red triblade prop inside of the white pyramid on the blue disk with Civil Air Patrol in the red arc on top.
No USAFAux, no CAP seals. About the only other marking allowed was a Find Ribbon sticker if the aircraft had a find credited to it.

It was a big deal when someone restored a WWII era CAP aircraft and put the Wartime markings on it.

Bayareaflyer 44

Quote from: PHall on January 03, 2020, 09:25:26 pm
The fleet back then wasn't anywhere near the 550+ we have today.


Not to quibble at all, but reading thru the report there is a tidbit of interest in the number of aircraft CAP had at the time.  Hope the screen capture comes thru, but 545 corporate A/C & 9583 member owned?  Darn big fleet!

1985 Annual Report to Congress - wow - trip down memory lane!  I was on the back cover of that report.  Thanks for posting that.


Earhart #2546
GRW     #3418

etodd

MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

Fester

Quote from: Eclipse on January 02, 2020, 11:46:33 pm
Similar in the MidWest where I've been told that at major military bases we lost during BRAC,
there had at times been 15 aircraft assigned at one alone, of course that's much easier to say
when they are MOAs.

By 99 when I joined MOAs were no longer a thing, and while still allowed for under some circumstances
I've never seen one used, nor justified, since I joined.


I remember numerous occasions between 92 and 97 when I saw MOA used.  In fact, in 97, I organized and ran an ORide Day for cadets from 4 squadrons which used 1 COA and 4 MOA.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

SarDragon

My unit used an MOA back around 2001 for o-rides, and it was no big deal. The pilot and plane were available, and we had a fine Saturday afternoon. Pilot and I flew from San Diego to Long Beach, did o-rides, and we flew home via Cabrillo for $100 hamburgers.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

radioguy

Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 02, 2020, 11:33:53 pm
I can only speak for NJ wing.

When I  became a cadet in 1970, most aircraft were member owned.



I was a cadet in south Jersey in the early sixties (yeah... I'm old) and our one and only aircraft was a CAP Aeronca L-16.


Bayareaflyer 44

I believe the answer to the question of "when was there a policy shift" could be answered as this:

I was flying my MOA for O-rides as late as July 2010.  Then, a new version of the CAPR 60-1 came out, and mandated that all MOA have a "copy of the airworthiness certificate, current Hold Harmless Agreement (HHA) and CAPF 71 are on file with the CAP-USAF LR for AFAMs or the Wing Commander or designee for Corporate Missions" (still stands today).

Well, that basically took MOA out of the A mission business since most folks didn't want that hassle (including me) from that point forward. 



Earhart #2546
GRW     #3418

Eclipse

2010?

Was this an CAWG anomaly due to have a large group of cadets with no COAs reasonably nearby?
9.2.1. is a fairly sacrosanct policy that few Wing CC's would bypass in a world of 200hr per a/c mandates
and a shrinking mission set.

The 71 was the only thing added in 2010, the other approvals were still needed, and after seeing
how some pilots treaty COAs, the lack of detail someone not wiling to do a 71 would show is one of the
reasons I'd never get in an MOA for a mission.



etodd

What seems to be missing is access to invoices from Cessna.  When was the first large order?  As in 10-20 brand new planes a year, like we see now. We know that it could have started in 1985, but don't see any records of exactly when we started this process of large yearly orders.

Who was the lucky salesman at Cessna that got the first order? LOL
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

NIN

Quote from: etodd on January 04, 2020, 10:14:28 pm
What seems to be missing is access to invoices from Cessna.  When was the first large order?  As in 10-20 brand new planes a year, like we see now. We know that it could have started in 1985, but don't see any records of exactly when we started this process of large yearly orders.

Who was the lucky salesman at Cessna that got the first order? LOL
Wasn't in 1985.

Cessna didn't restart the single engine line until, what, '96?

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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SarDragon

From what I can find, Cessna didn't build little airplanes from 1985/86 ti 1996.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Luis R. Ramos

Is there a possibility that CAP has had corporate aircraft that were high-wing but not Cessnas during the time that Cessnas was not building high wings in 1986-1996? And after Cessnas became available, withdraw them from service? Pipers or from Taylorcraft, and this could have spurred a Cessna order.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Ohioguard

NHQ bought newer used aircraft, most if not all were Cessna a/c.  Once Cessna got through the liability issues and it was profitable, they open the production lines again.


JCW
50 yr member

ZigZag911

Quote from: radioguy on January 04, 2020, 03:39:01 pm
Quote from: ZigZag911 on January 02, 2020, 11:33:53 pm
I can only speak for NJ wing.

When I  became a cadet in 1970, most aircraft were member owned.



I was a cadet in south Jersey in the early sixties (yeah... I'm old) and our one and only aircraft was a CAP Aeronca L-16.


Your squadron probably had  regular use of one of those rare corporate aircraft.

It's likely that someone from Wing Ops was also connected to your unit.

etodd

Quote from: NIN on January 05, 2020, 05:13:11 am
Quote from: etodd on January 04, 2020, 10:14:28 pm
What seems to be missing is access to invoices from Cessna.  When was the first large order?  As in 10-20 brand new planes a year, like we see now. We know that it could have started in 1985, but don't see any records of exactly when we started this process of large yearly orders.

Who was the lucky salesman at Cessna that got the first order? LOL
Wasn't in 1985.

Cessna didn't restart the single engine line until, what, '96?



Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

NIN

Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2020, 01:57:29 am
Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK


1998-1999, likely.

First brandy new Cessna I ever saw up close and personal like (probably 25hrs on the Hobbs) was N913CP, a 1999 model C172. And I'm pretty sure 913 wasn't in the first batch we bought.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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CAP9907

Quote from: NIN on January 06, 2020, 02:07:03 am
Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2020, 01:57:29 am
Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK


1998-1999, likely.

First brandy new Cessna I ever saw up close and personal like (probably 25hrs on the Hobbs) was N913CP, a 1999 model C172. And I'm pretty sure 913 wasn't in the first batch we bought.


And today, 913CP is our primary A/C for Cadet flight instruction and flying quite often.   :)
21 yrs of service

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Eclipse

My wing / unit took delivery of N905CP (also a 99 172) in early 2000 with like 13 hours on it,
and it was a HUGE deal, like "we've never had a 'new' plane before" and "no one is allowed to eat in here" big deal.



FW

Quote from: NIN on January 06, 2020, 02:07:03 am
Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2020, 01:57:29 am
Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK


1998-1999, likely.

First brandy new Cessna I ever saw up close and personal like (probably 25hrs on the Hobbs) was N913CP, a 1999 model C172. And I'm pretty sure 913 wasn't in the first batch we bought.

First shipment of new Cessna C172 aircraft were delivered to CAP in, I think, September of 1997.  I was one of the ferry pilots.  We all met at the factory, took a tour, had a "shakedown" flight and flew home with our new "toys".. mine got as far as Batavia before a electrical fire stranded me at "Sporty's"..  I remember that flight very well..... First new C182's were delivered in 1999.  C206's came shortly after.

Spam

Quote from: FW on January 06, 2020, 03:46:26 am
Quote from: NIN on January 06, 2020, 02:07:03 am
Quote from: etodd on January 06, 2020, 01:57:29 am
Exactly. But it seems funny that no one seems to know when that first big order for brand new Cessnas off the assembly line every year first started. You would think it would have made headlines and been ticker tape celebration party time for all of CAP.  Maybe we didn't have CAP Historians back then to record big events?  LOL  IDK


1998-1999, likely.

First brandy new Cessna I ever saw up close and personal like (probably 25hrs on the Hobbs) was N913CP, a 1999 model C172. And I'm pretty sure 913 wasn't in the first batch we bought.

First shipment of new Cessna C172 aircraft were delivered to CAP in, I think, September of 1997.  I was one of the ferry pilots.  We all met at the factory, took a tour, had a "shakedown" flight and flew home with our new "toys".. mine got as far as Batavia before a electrical fire stranded me at "Sporty's"..  I remember that flight very well..... First new C182's were delivered in 1999.  C206's came shortly after.



Sounds like that was definitely not a Code One jet!

Had that been any other DoD aircraft, the Kansas DPRO *(Defense Plant Representative Officer, in the 1990s) would have been hammering down the door of the VP for Production, the next morning!

Glad you were ok. I had an electrical fire in a new jet myself (sigh).
Spam



NIN

Quote from: CAP9907 on January 06, 2020, 02:15:30 am
And today, 913CP is our primary A/C for Cadet flight instruction and flying quite often.   :)


Nice. Glad she's doing yeoman service for you guys down there. :)

"New airplane smell" is a thing I learned from that plane.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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CAPJOE

Quote from: ProdigalJim on January 02, 2020, 01:05:37 amHi Gang,

Yeah, yeah, been awhile...

I've been searching through the Thomas database of all congressional actions to try to find the first bill when CAP started acquiring the Cessna 182/172 fleet that we have today. When I was a cadet, we were mostly member-owned (1979-1983). By the time I came back in in 2011, we were mostly CAP-owned. There was a policy shift between when I left and when I returned, and so what I'm trying to find is the legislative history of that policy shift.

I'm pretty well-grounded in the current process and I understand how the flow of appropriated dollars goes from USAF to CAP for aircraft and so on.

I have plenty of database access, but so far it's been needle in a haystack. If anyone can give me a year when it all started to happen, that would help me narrow down my legislative search. And if anyone remembers a key sponsor or co-sponsor, that would be even better.

Thanks in advance,

When I was in CAP the first time  in the early 90s my squadron at that time had all member owned aircraft.