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glm705
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SER-GAWG

« on: December 20, 2019, 09:27:42 PM »

Are find ribbons typically awarded to mission base staff as well, or only the members of the ground team? I was an MRO on a non-distress find a while ago, and was told that I wouldn't receive a find ribbon for it, which I was fine with, but then I heard other people saying that anyone involved would earn a find ribbon. CAPR 39-3 is unclear.

Quote
Awarded... to any CAP member... making a find
(distress or non-distress) on a search and rescue mission.

Thoughts?
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Regulation Nerd and PA Geek
Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,610
Unit: Victory

« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2019, 09:31:01 PM »

Negative. The award explicitly calls out air and ground teams:

"Both aircrew and ground team members may receive credit for finds."
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Check Pilot/Tow Pilot
Seasoned Member

Posts: 433

« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2019, 09:36:53 PM »

Not negative for all states.

Negative. The award explicitly calls out air and ground teams:

"Both aircrew and ground team members may receive credit for finds."
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,610
Unit: Victory

« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2019, 09:45:19 PM »

Not negative for all states.

Negative. The award explicitly calls out air and ground teams:

"Both aircrew and ground team members may receive credit for finds."

To my knowledge there are no CAP supplements for other states that change award criteria for decorations.
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MSG Mac
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Posts: 2,084
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2019, 10:57:43 PM »

But you do get credit towards the SAR ribbon as a mission base person.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time With Silver Clasp
*
Posts: 30,546

« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2019, 11:17:01 PM »

Traditionally, everyone signed into the mission gets the Find.  It's a team effort.

CAPR 39-3, Page 14:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

"d. Search “Find” Ribbon. Awarded by the wing commander (or a subordinate commander
if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing making a find
(distress or non-distress) on a search and rescue mission. A “distress find” is defined as one
involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally, a definite search objective must have
been assigned, located and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as “non-distress,”
e.g., location of non-distress emergency locator transmitters (ELTs). The basic ribbon is awarded for
a first find (distress or non-distress). A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional distress find or
for each additional 20 non-distress finds. Both aircrew and ground team members may receive credit
for finds. Also, if desired, the Search “Find’ Ribbon may be painted on the aircraft in which the find
was made."


Note it says "any CAP member" not specifically aircrews or GTs.

The additional verbiage is to clarify that it isn't just the person who touches the ELT,
and the following paragraphs explain what happens with additional finds or combined participation, etc.

With the above said, whether or not one wing awards them this way doesn't mean others will.  It's
up to the IC and / or wing policy.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 11:20:20 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,376
Unit: GA-090

« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2019, 12:15:31 AM »


So, (Traditionally), no, not everyone signed into the mission gets a Find credit, necessarily. Traditions change... perhaps AF now paints kills onto staff cars rather than fighters, I dunno...


My first (ND) Find thirty years ago was as a GTM (and no, base staffers did not receive credit no matter how hard they worked as support staff). My subsequent distress and ND Finds as aircrew and gt were awarded to those who were actually on scene. Same criteria - GAWG, FLWG, SCWG, MOWG, MDWG, CTWG, in the years I was there. As an MC/IC, I never awarded credit to any but the on-scene crew that actually made the Find. When my ABD and I ran NTAP traces, and said "its there" and sent a team straight to the coordinates, no we did not self award Finds to ourselves or the radio operators - just the people that spotted it from the aircraft or walked onto the site.


Each Wing, as Eclipse states, may have different Traditions/policy, and that may change (should change, I'd agree) on a case by case basis.


Cadet, you were informed correctly, for the purposes of Georgia Wing, GP1, and Cobb. Which is what matters.


V/r
Spam


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baronet68
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Posts: 224
Unit: PCR-WA-001

McChord.org
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2019, 05:02:09 AM »

Note it says "any CAP member" not specifically aircrews or GTs.

Actually, it does specify that it is awarded to aircrews and ground teams:

Quote from: CAPR 39-3, Page 14:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

"d. Search “Find” Ribbon. Awarded by the wing commander (or a subordinate commander
if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing making a find
(distress or non-distress) on a search and rescue mission. A “distress find” is defined as one
involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally, a definite search objective must have
been assigned, located and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as “non-distress,”
e.g., location of non-distress emergency locator transmitters (ELTs). The basic ribbon is awarded for
a first find (distress or non-distress). A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional distress find or
for each additional 20 non-distress finds. Both aircrew and ground team members may receive credit
for finds.
Also, if desired, the Search “Find’ Ribbon may be painted on the aircraft in which the find
was made."




This part...

Quote
...to any CAP member of the wing making a find...

Could be interpreted two ways:

1. The recipient must be working as a CAP member, in a CAP capacity, and not searching as a member of another SAR organization (e.g. State Mountain Rescue Team, County ESAR, etc.)

--or--

2. Any member of the entire wing could receive credit for their wing making a find, even if they weren't participating in the search.


It seems pretty straight forward to me that the intent of the regulation is to award the find ribbon to all members of the air crews and ground teams who make a find.  Members staffing a mission base (locally or remotely) are not aircrew/ground team and therefore should not receive the ribbon.
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Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
Secret Wing Staff Dude, WAWG
sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,259

« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2019, 05:20:38 AM »

Now throw 60-3 into the discussion:

CAPR 60-3 page 19
1-28. Criteria for FIND Credit. A FIND is awarded by the wing commander or higher commander (or a subordinate commander if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing, and is classified as distress or non-distress. A distress FIND is defined as one involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally a definite search objective must have been assigned, located, and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated. Credit towards FIND ribbons is normally given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved may be credited with a FIND. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates.

The part about awarding a find to "a search force...."  was added in at the 2009 revision to 60-3.  The previous versions of 60-3 (26 May 2004 and earlier) simply stated:
Credit towards find ribbons is only given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates.

The predecessors to 60-3, CAPR 50-15 and 55-1 (both superseded in 2001) made no reference to finds, only saves.

The earliest 39-3 I have is dated 1998 (which replaced the 1988 version) and non-distress finds were eligible for the Find ribbon.  For those of us who have been around long enough, finds were ONLY awarded for distress finds and only to the air or ground crew that actually located the objective.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 05:34:52 AM by sardak » Report to moderator   Logged
Spaceman3750
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Posts: 2,714

« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2019, 06:09:09 AM »

I genuinely don’t understand why we argue about this. Recognize members for their work, regardless of where they may be standing. Everyone put in a bunch of work to make it happen, and ribbons are a cheap way to repay the efforts of everyone involved.

I just don’t get why we can’t get this through our skulls as an organization.
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,610
Unit: Victory

« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2019, 07:32:56 PM »

I genuinely don’t understand why we argue about this. Recognize members for their work, regardless of where they may be standing. Everyone put in a bunch of work to make it happen, and ribbons are a cheap way to repay the efforts of everyone involved.

I just don’t get why we can’t get this through our skulls as an organization.

Because ribbons should be awarded according to their meaning. If we just hand them out when they aren't intended to, we cheapen the award for all others.

If the IMT should get awarded too, the regulation should be amended to reflect that. The 60-3 note provides more clarity, but a publication amendment should be made to the award publication as well at this point.
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