September 29, 2020, 06:15:59 am

Cadet Application - Photo release removed!

Started by JohhnyD, December 17, 2019, 09:29:22 am

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JohhnyD

Cap pamphlet 152 states

Photo Release A photo release is incorporated into the Civil Air Patrol membership application, so no additional photo release is required before posting photos of Civil Air Patrol members during CAP activities. However, if parents of cadets request that photos not be published of their child, then do make an attempt to honor their parental wishes.

However I have looked at the Cadet application and cannot find anything relating to a photo release. Am I over looking something???

RESPONSE:
Quote
Paul S. Cianciolo It was taken out of because it is implied. Legal. When you are "on duty" as a member, then anything you do can be documented. You only need a release if there is a commercial use of the image. The new language was added to the draft CAPR 150-2 to better explain this.


Really? What brainiac decided that a regulation superseded a written permission/waiver? Is there a real lawyer anywhere on staff? And yes, I get "fair use", but explain that to an angry parent! Why NOT keep that waiver/release language in the app?

Luis R. Ramos

Who is Paul Ciancolo? Is this someone from NHQ?
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

JohhnyD

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 17, 2019, 10:59:25 am
Who is Paul Ciancolo? Is this someone from NHQ?

Lt Col Paul Cianciolo, Marketing & Social Media Coordinator. 301-751-2011. paul.cianciolo@natcapwg.cap.gov

The quote is from the PAO FB Group.

NIN

Quote from: JohhnyD on December 17, 2019, 09:29:22 am
<snip>
However I have looked at the Cadet application and cannot find anything relating to a photo release. Am I over looking something???

RESPONSE:
Quote
Paul S. Cianciolo It was taken out of because it is implied. Legal. When you are "on duty" as a member, then anything you do can be documented. You only need a release if there is a commercial use of the image. The new language was added to the draft CAPR 150-2 to better explain this.


Really? What brainiac decided that a regulation superseded a written permission/waiver? Is there a real lawyer anywhere on staff? And yes, I get "fair use", but explain that to an angry parent! Why NOT keep that waiver/release language in the app?


OK, so let me flip this on its head for you:  Are you a lawyer? Are you practiced in intellectual property and/or tradmark/copyright/[insert something here] law concerning the likeness rights of members of the public? I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, but do you have knowledge you bring to the table on this subject that others might not?

My point is: Yes, it sure seems like this should be something we have covered/sign off on by parents.  I'm no lawyer (nor do I play one on TV), but I'm guessing (assuming? a dangerous word there!) that people who actually practice law, you know, the General Counsel and the myriad of CAP legal officers who make up the legal officers corps, probably have discussed this one, found relevant case law and precedent, and elected to go the way they did when the form was rejiggered along with the Online Cadet Application.

Also, not the first time that our regulations and forms aren't in mutual agreement.  Welcome to CAP.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Blanding

Quote from: JohhnyD on December 17, 2019, 09:29:22 am
And yes, I get "fair use", but explain that to an angry parent!


What is the parent angry about?
In my experience working with parents; listening, acknowledging, and offering solutions that are mutually beneficial to the unit and their cadet work much better than quoting regulation by saying, "See? Here in paragraph four dot six dot one dot three I'm expressly allowed by CAP to take and post photos of your child."

Holding Pattern

In my most recent FEMA class a photo release was included in the documentation set.

In my opinion, photo releases should be managed as part of the membership package. Implying consent for such is generally not a good plan. It would be the more ethical thing to do.

THRAWN

Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 17, 2019, 02:59:23 pm
In my most recent FEMA class a photo release was included in the documentation set.

In my opinion, photo releases should be managed as part of the membership package. Implying consent for such is generally not a good plan. It would be the more ethical thing to do.


Same for schools in my area. We get an annual form to fill out.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

OldGuy

Quote from: NIN on December 17, 2019, 02:16:12 pm
OK, so let me flip this on its head for you:  Are you a lawyer? Are you practiced in intellectual property and/or tradmark/copyright/[insert something here] law concerning the likeness rights of members of the public? I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, but do you have knowledge you bring to the table on this subject that others might not?

My point is: Yes, it sure seems like this should be something we have covered/sign off on by parents.  I'm no lawyer (nor do I play one on TV), but I'm guessing (assuming? a dangerous word there!) that people who actually practice law, you know, the General Counsel and the myriad of CAP legal officers who make up the legal officers corps, probably have discussed this one, found relevant case law and precedent, and elected to go the way they did when the form was rejiggered along with the Online Cadet Application.

Also, not the first time that our regulations and forms aren't in mutual agreement.  Welcome to CAP.

The point is that NHQ deleted a part of the cadet app process that really matters. Ignore the law for a moment, many of our cadets are homeschooled. Many do NOT want their kids on social media at all. I have spoken with cadet parents during the recruiting process about this, my current and prior two CC's have ALL had extensive interaction with parents due to the question. Was it deleted to avoid that? If so, dumb. And btw I have extensive litigation experience and 4 decades of practical marketing experience and can tell you flat out that the law is NOT "settled" law. 

What is unsettling is the quiet change and the sanctimonious NHQ Social Media team and their "superior" knowledge. That coupled with a significant lack of field input is disturbing.

OldGuy

Quote from: THRAWN on December 17, 2019, 03:03:54 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 17, 2019, 02:59:23 pm
In my most recent FEMA class a photo release was included in the documentation set.

In my opinion, photo releases should be managed as part of the membership package. Implying consent for such is generally not a good plan. It would be the more ethical thing to do.


Same for schools in my area. We get an annual form to fill out.

For the same reason, we ought to keep doing it. Parental communication matters - a LOT!

OldGuy

Quote from: Blanding on December 17, 2019, 02:58:51 pm
What is the parent angry about?

Not wanting their child on social media. Why? Because of an ugly divorce and the fact they are trying to keep a low profile to avoid domestic violence.

Blanding

December 17, 2019, 04:19:15 pm #10 Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 04:22:21 pm by Blanding
Quote from: OldGuy on December 17, 2019, 04:14:10 pm
Quote from: Blanding on December 17, 2019, 02:58:51 pm
What is the parent angry about?

Not wanting their child on social media. Why?...


I think the first part is enough to make the point (especially considering this is social media).

So is it possible to not post photos of this cadet on behalf of your unit? I guess my question is, why are we trying to find a regulation to prove it's okay to post photos vs. trying to honor the wishes of the parent?

I think I may have misunderstood the point of the thread, so if it's about not being open with parents, my apologies. I think any good introduction to the program for a parent should include the idea that photography is a component of our organization and (excepting a couple mission types) nothing we do is "private."

OldGuy

Quote from: Blanding on December 17, 2019, 04:19:15 pm
Quote from: OldGuy on December 17, 2019, 04:14:10 pm
Quote from: Blanding on December 17, 2019, 02:58:51 pm
What is the parent angry about?

Not wanting their child on social media. Why?...


I think the first part is enough to make the point (especially considering this is social media).

So is it possible to not post photos of this cadet on behalf of your unit? I guess my question is, why are we trying to find a regulation to prove it's okay to post photos vs. trying to honor the wishes of the parent?

That parent's wishes were followed carefully, she was satisfied.

Why want the application to include a permission/release? To facilitate parental awareness and help alert local units of sensitive issues like that. Not one parent in 10,000 will read CAP regulations, but many (certainly not all) will pay attention to the application, and if an issue exists, they will speak up. It is good COMMUNICATIONS and a very valid display of RESPECT.

THRAWN

Don't post or use photos of people's kids without their permission. This isn't rocket surgery.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

ZigZag911

While one size doesn't always fit all, this seems to be one of those cases where standardization works to everyone 'should advantage.

We shouldn't be using photos of minors who are cadet's without parental permission.

The item should be restored to the cadet application.

Individual status in this regard should be easy enough to incorporate into the member eServices file.

A Member Report covering this category  would also be helpful to  PAOs.

Blanding

Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 17, 2019, 06:41:55 pm
We shouldn't be using photos of minors who are cadet's without parental permission.


I'm not sure this is always the case:

Quote from: CAPR190-1
10.3. Photo Releases. Photos and video taken in public circumstances may be published or
distributed (including images posted on the World Wide Web) without specific written or verbal
permission, unless local law requires permission.


10.3.1. CAP will not publish identifying information other than name, grade, and general
locale of the individual's unit of assignment, limited to city, state, and flight, squadron, group,
wing or region name.

10.3.2. CAP will obtain written permission from identifiable individuals appearing in
photographs that are used for commercial purposes, including paid advertising purchased by
CAP, but not including official publications and websites produced by CAP staff.


10.3.3. When individual circumstances cause members to request that they not appear
in photographs distributed by CAP PA staff, and any member serving as a CAP photographer shall
make a good-faith effort to comply with the request.

10.3.4. None of the provisions in this section will be interpreted as applying to legitimate
news organizations or to members conducting photography for personal rather than corporate
purposes, unless such photos and video are later adopted for corporate use.


So, question, do your local laws require you to obtain permission to publish a photo of a minor cadet in a public space?

Eclipse




OldGuy


Quote from: CAPR190-1
So, question, do your local laws require you to obtain permission to publish a photo of a minor cadet in a public space?

Not always, frankly, it depends on the end-use. But that question is not on point, we are not the news media, we are a member-driven organization acting in loco parentis, we need to communicate well with our team.

OldGuy

Quote from: THRAWN on December 17, 2019, 04:31:55 pm
Don't post or use photos of people's kids without their permission. This isn't rocket surgery.

We no longer ask for the permission on the application. Therein lies the rub.

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on December 17, 2019, 09:29:22 amI get "fair use",


No, you don't, since the doctrine of "fair use" has nothing to do with this issue.

Quote from: JohhnyD on December 17, 2019, 09:29:22 ambut explain that to an angry parent!


"All CAP activities take place in "public spaces", therefore the assumption when participating is that you or your cadet may be
in photos that are used by the unit or elsewhere to foster and celebrate CAP's mission and member accomplishments."

Done.

(Also, this will definitely be in the running for "non-issue of the decade")



Holding Pattern

Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2019, 08:25:24 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on December 17, 2019, 09:29:22 amI get "fair use",


No, you don't, since the doctrine of "fair use" has nothing to do with this issue.

Quote from: JohhnyD on December 17, 2019, 09:29:22 ambut explain that to an angry parent!


"All CAP activities take place in "public spaces"


Not even remotely true.

NIN

Quote from: OldGuy on December 17, 2019, 04:14:10 pm
Not wanting their child on social media. Why? Because of an ugly divorce and the fact they are trying to keep a low profile to avoid domestic violence.


I have heard this saw 100 times.

I've dealt with 500+ sets of parents in 10 years as a unit commander.  How many times have I heard this from a parent?  Once.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Luis R. Ramos

So squadrons that meet in schools, or for that matter in an armory are meeting in a public space? So, the public has to go through a security guard, a safety agent, or a military police. How public is that?

The implication is that not every activity will take place in a public place!



Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Actually, all those things you mention are, in fact public spaces. That fact that they may have
more stringent security to protect their occupants doesn't change the nature of privacy laws,
however to your point, in those locations, the host may well have more strict rules about
capturing any photons at all.

In other words, if photos are allowed at all, and CAP members are participating, they are all fair game.




Blanding

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 17, 2019, 10:01:29 pm
So squadrons that meet in schools, or for that matter in an armory are meeting in a public space? So, the public has to go through a security guard, a safety agent, or a military police. How public is that?

The implication is that not every activity will take place in a public place!


Each of those places has a person responsible for setting policy regarding conduct. Assuming the principal of the school or the installation commander at the armory has not forbidden photography, you are free to take photos.

The distinction between public and private spaces refers to whether a person occupying the space has a reasonable expectation of privacy. You cannot walk up to my apartment window and photograph me through the glass, but if I go to a school (public or private), I have no expectation of privacy there and thus, it's up to the administrator of the facility to set policy.

Eclipse

Quote from: Blanding on December 17, 2019, 10:15:17 pm
The distinction between public and private spaces refers to whether a person occupying the space has a reasonable expectation of privacy. You cannot walk up to my apartment window and photograph me through the glass, but if I go to a school (public or private), I have no expectation of privacy there and thus, it's up to the administrator of the facility to set policy.


This.



Luis R. Ramos

As a public school teacher of 15 years and assistant professor at a college, I was sure I was not in a public place. I could not take photos as I wanted. In fact, there was an expectation of privacy in all those institutions I worked.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

OldGuy

Quote from: NIN on December 17, 2019, 08:31:29 pm
Quote from: OldGuy on December 17, 2019, 04:14:10 pm
Not wanting their child on social media. Why? Because of an ugly divorce and the fact they are trying to keep a low profile to avoid domestic violence.


I have heard this saw 100 times.

I've dealt with 500+ sets of parents in 10 years as a unit commander.  How many times have I heard this from a parent?  Once.

Come to the Inland Northwest. I have heard it, my current CC and my prior two have as well, and frequently.

SarDragon

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 17, 2019, 11:36:17 pm
As a public school teacher of 15 years and assistant professor at a college, I was sure I was not in a public place. I could not take photos as I wanted. In fact, there was an expectation of privacy in all those institutions I worked.
And along with that expectation, there were probably rules to back them up. Sans rules, almost anything goes.

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Eclipse

Quote from: OldGuy on December 17, 2019, 11:41:15 pm
Come to the Inland Northwest. I have heard it, my current CC and my prior two have as well, and frequently.


We all have, and plenty more things as well.

When these things come up, you don't gnash teeth or hem and haw, you provide the answer, directly and professionally,
and with no "asides or equivocation" and move on.

Those parents and members are then free to make choices and decisions based on the factual information you provide.

Done.



JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on December 17, 2019, 11:55:48 pm
Quote from: OldGuy on December 17, 2019, 11:41:15 pm
Come to the Inland Northwest. I have heard it, my current CC and my prior two have as well, and frequently.


We all have, and plenty more things as well.

When these things come up, you don't gnash teeth or hem and haw, you provide the answer, directly and professionally,
and with no "asides or equivocation" and move on.

Those parents and members are then free to make choices and decisions based on the factual information you provide.

Done.

But now parents will not have been notified about our policy. We expect them to read our regulations? Again, what braniac thought that up? Why not keep the language we had for years there?

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on December 18, 2019, 01:53:45 am
But now parents will not have been notified about our policy. We expect them to read our regulations? Again, what braniac thought that up? Why not keep the language we had for years there?


The same reason that 46 of 52 wings are no longer flying counter drug missions.

It's unnecessary.



JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on December 18, 2019, 02:43:06 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on December 18, 2019, 01:53:45 am
But now parents will not have been notified about our policy. We expect them to read our regulations? Again, what braniac thought that up? Why not keep the language we had for years there?


The same reason that 46 of 52 wings are no longer flying counter drug missions.

It's unnecessary.

Really? Respect is now "unnecessary"? Sorry, my cadets deserve better.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 17, 2019, 11:36:17 pm
As a public school teacher of 15 years and assistant professor at a college, I was sure I was not in a public place. I could not take photos as I wanted. In fact, there was an expectation of privacy in all those institutions I worked.

And my parents agree with that view.

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on December 18, 2019, 03:50:20 am
Quote from: Eclipse on December 18, 2019, 02:43:06 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on December 18, 2019, 01:53:45 am
But now parents will not have been notified about our policy. We expect them to read our regulations? Again, what braniac thought that up? Why not keep the language we had for years there?


The same reason that 46 of 52 wings are no longer flying counter drug missions.

It's unnecessary.

Really? Respect is now "unnecessary"? Sorry, my cadets deserve better.


What "your" cadets deserve is someone focused on something that actually matters,
and who knows how to manage situations when they arise.

And in regards to "respect", perhaps you should ask Braniac.



Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on December 18, 2019, 03:50:56 am
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 17, 2019, 11:36:17 pm
As a public school teacher of 15 years and assistant professor at a college, I was sure I was not in a public place. I could not take photos as I wanted. In fact, there was an expectation of privacy in all those institutions I worked.

And my parents agree with that view.


Then they would be wrong in their view.  The above has nothing to do with CAP.
If you choose to make an activity or area a no photo zone, so be it.  CAP has that issue
everyday on military bases, airport control towers, and other places where the host
restricts photos.

CAP, per se, is not a "no photo zone".  Like it or not.

Making a big deal about this to people who don't care creates a problem that doesn't exist.



JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on December 18, 2019, 03:59:15 am
Then they would be wrong in their view. 

That lack of respect says it all. Q.E.D.

ZigZag911

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

It's an issue. Clarify our policy, state it in writing,  emphasize with all new members (and parents/guardians for cadets),

Extinguish the ember before it turns into a flame,

It's called transparency.

JohhnyD

Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 18, 2019, 07:03:45 pm
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

It's an issue. Clarify our policy, state it in writing,  emphasize with all new members (and parents/guardians for cadets),

Extinguish the ember before it turns into a flame,

It's called transparency.

Keereckt! Respect matters.

CAP9907

21 yrs of service

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