Service Cap Senior Member NCO Corps

Started by sandman, November 30, 2019, 07:50:23 am

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sandman

Hi folks,
It's been a day or two.
Would like to know if we can get a word up to NHQ about reauthorizing the senior member NCO service cap badge.
Would make a nice addition to the NCO Corps (See attached .pdf for photo).
best,
Dwight
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 144th Fighter Wing, Commander, Medical Flight

Jester

I was just told the other day it was in the new 39-1 whenever it comes out.

Hawk200

Quote from: Jester on November 30, 2019, 12:06:18 pm
I was just told the other day it was in the new 39-1 whenever it comes out.
Somebody up top approved something that made sense? Huh... Miracles do happen, I guess.

It's gonna look good. Got a couple of the old ones in my collection (of strangely varied insignia.) Wish I knew where they were.

Anyone know if they'll get a corresponding device for flight caps?

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Jester

From what I was told we're dropping flight cap devices like the AF.

I have a wheel cap with a vintage enlisted device ready and waiting.

Hawk200

Quote from: Jester on November 30, 2019, 04:05:03 pm
From what I was told we're dropping flight cap devices like the AF.

I have a wheel cap with a vintage enlisted device ready and waiting.
So, CAP NCOs won't have a flight cap device at all?

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that.

Then again, not a CAP NCO, so my opinion probably doesn't matter.

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PHall

Quote from: Hawk200 on November 30, 2019, 04:24:02 pm
Quote from: Jester on November 30, 2019, 04:05:03 pm
From what I was told we're dropping flight cap devices like the AF.

I have a wheel cap with a vintage enlisted device ready and waiting.
So, CAP NCOs won't have a flight cap device at all?

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that.

Then again, not a CAP NCO, so my opinion probably doesn't matter.

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Air Force NCOs don't wear a flight cap device. So what's the problem?

Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2019, 07:45:20 pmAir Force NCOs don't wear a flight cap device. So what's the problem?


Low light level discrimination between active and auxiliary airmen.

#totalforce



sandman

Thanks for the feedback. Good to see that this is an item on the table for the next 39-1.
I am considering going the NCO route for a few years with a new unit standing up. CO is a 1LT because he can't wear stripes as a commander. Once his tour is done and the unit stabilizes, he'll drop back to his CAP NCO stripes. That will make two senior member NCO's for this unit. Bunch of great new kids including my kid now.
Regarding the flight cap....I prefer the insignia off (and will wear it that way despite CAP regs...sue me). I couldn't care less about "low light visibility" concerns, Real Mil AF people are smarter than you're giving them credit for.
Thanks all!
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 144th Fighter Wing, Commander, Medical Flight

Eclipse

Quote from: sandman on November 30, 2019, 09:56:08 pm
I couldn't care less about "low light visibility" concerns, Real Mil AF people are smarter than you're giving them credit for.


This is the stated reason, by the USAF for the differences between CAP and USAF uniforms.

Quote from: sandman on November 30, 2019, 09:56:08 pm
I am considering going the NCO route for a few years with a new unit standing up.


Were you a military NCO?  your signature says you retired as a Maj.



PHall

Quote from: sandman on November 30, 2019, 09:56:08 pm
Thanks for the feedback. Good to see that this is an item on the table for the next 39-1.
I am considering going the NCO route for a few years with a new unit standing up. CO is a 1LT because he can't wear stripes as a commander. Once his tour is done and the unit stabilizes, he'll drop back to his CAP NCO stripes. That will make two senior member NCO's for this unit. Bunch of great new kids including my kid now.
Regarding the flight cap....I prefer the insignia off (and will wear it that way despite CAP regs...sue me). I couldn't care less about "low light visibility" concerns, Real Mil AF people are smarter than you're giving them credit for.
Thanks all!


Not a CAP Reg driving this but an Air Force Reg.

sandman

Eclipse,
Roger, I understand what you're saying. Can we agree that CAP uniforms have plenty of distinguishable differences between RM and Aux uniforms? Is it possible that the officer side would be more of a security concern than the NCO side? That would be my concern. Again, couldn't care less about the visuals, access controls are based on CAC cards and authorization lists than what uniform is worn...that was probably more a concern decades ago when a DoD car sticker and a smart uniform could get you on base without a problem. Meh, we're really getting into the sticks now....
Anyway, hope to see the NCO flight cap follow RM by removing the CAP insignia. Why not bolster the NCO corps? Make it great...the "backbone" as it were. Encourage people to "enlist" in the CAP (I know a lot of "officers" that really need to be NCO's..or even junior "enlisted").
I'm all for opening up the enlisted track starting at E-1 for senior members.

As far as my military background, yes, prior NCO, but the pay was better at the officer grades so I went mustang... ;-)
Great conversation everyone, thanks!
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 144th Fighter Wing, Commander, Medical Flight

sandman

Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2019, 10:13:15 pm

Not a CAP Reg driving this but an Air Force Reg.


Hey, I'm willing to be humble and learn...which AFI?
Thanks
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 144th Fighter Wing, Commander, Medical Flight

Eclipse

AFI 10-2701, Page 10 § 1.3.4:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/AFI_102701_31_Jul_14_0475E646C469F_A5F7AE13FB075.pdf
"CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the
CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a
distance and in low-light conditions. CAP-USAF/CC must approve changes to the CAP Air
Force-style uniform. CAP uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces
uniforms so that confusion will not occur.
"



sandman

Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2019, 10:36:41 pm
AFI 10-2701, Page 10 § 1.3.4:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/AFI_102701_31_Jul_14_0475E646C469F_A5F7AE13FB075.pdf
"CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the
CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a
distance and in low-light conditions. CAP-USAF/CC must approve changes to the CAP Air
Force-style uniform. CAP uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces
uniforms so that confusion will not occur.
"



Yep, seen that before. Good research results btw! I still say this was written with the CAP officer's uniform in mind (weighted more heavily towards anyway). Senior CAP NCO's were rare unicorns....yes?

I'd still leave off the flight cap device....and it may be a moot point now with a new CAPR 39-1 as alluded to by Jester.
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 144th Fighter Wing, Commander, Medical Flight

Eclipse

Quote from: sandman on November 30, 2019, 10:50:39 pm
I'd still leave off the flight cap device...


Except that's it's required unambiguously for all adult members wear the USAF style uniform, so you "know better" then?



PHall

Quote from: sandman on November 30, 2019, 10:50:39 pm
Yep, seen that before. Good research results btw! I still say this was written with the CAP officer's uniform in mind (weighted more heavily towards anyway). Senior CAP NCO's were rare unicorns....yes?

I'd still leave off the flight cap device.


Yet when you joined you agreed to follow all CAP regulations.  What's that word? Oh yeah, Integrity!

sandman

Hi all,
Glad to see you're still salty. Fun to watch how well you treat each other over the years.
Request admins lock this thread.
Best,
Dwight
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 144th Fighter Wing, Commander, Medical Flight

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2019, 10:05:52 pm
Quote from: sandman on November 30, 2019, 09:56:08 pm
I couldn't care less about "low light visibility" concerns, Real Mil AF people are smarter than you're giving them credit for.


This is the stated reason, by the USAF for the differences between CAP and USAF uniforms.

Quote from: sandman on November 30, 2019, 09:56:08 pm
I am considering going the NCO route for a few years with a new unit standing up.


Were you a military NCO?  your signature says you retired as a Maj.


Retiring as a Major doesn't preclude anyone from having once been a military NCO.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

JayT

Quote from: sandman on December 01, 2019, 05:13:01 am
Hi all,
Glad to see you're still salty. Fun to watch how well you treat each other over the years.
Request admins lock this thread.
Best,
Dwight


"I got told something I didn't like, so now I want to take my toys and go home."
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

Hawk200

Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2019, 07:45:20 pm
Quote from: Hawk200 on November 30, 2019, 04:24:02 pm
Quote from: Jester on November 30, 2019, 04:05:03 pm
From what I was told we're dropping flight cap devices like the AF.

I have a wheel cap with a vintage enlisted device ready and waiting.
So, CAP NCOs won't have a flight cap device at all?

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that.

Then again, not a CAP NCO, so my opinion probably doesn't matter.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Air Force NCOs don't wear a flight cap device. So what's the problem?
There isn't a problem.

There are ways I think CAP uniforms should mirror the Air Force, but in other ways should be distinctive. Probably hard to explain.

The flight cap insignia ties everybody together, visually. Anyone wearing the device is a CAP Senior Member, regardless of rank. (Not having an NCO specific flight cap device is easier, too. No concerns about someone getting the wrong one.)

Used to dislike the device, but that reason is one that I appreciate it now. The other reason is that I don't have to change anything when I promote.

There are other things that I think should change, too, but this thread is about that device, so not going to go off on a tangent.

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