Fired gay Air Force Academy commandant was ‘toxic’ leader IG finds; she claims d

Started by JohhnyD, November 27, 2019, 08:12:23 am

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Fester

Quote from: abdsp51 on November 29, 2019, 04:02:45 pm
Diversity is a term that is thrown to really mean conformity.  And anytime someone has an opposing view they are labeled as (fill in the blank).  Today's society preaches so much about inclusiveness and tolerance but the majority refuses to tolerate any other view than their own.  I highly doubt this person was selected for diversity purposes and fired for the same reason.  Misuse of that travel card is one of the quickest ways for anyone to get into trouble. 

The allegation was investigated and was substantiated what more do we really need?  Of course those who scream tolerance and diversity will make this about something its not and anyone who disagrees is (fill in the blank). 

The Merriam-Webster definition of tolerance:

Tolerance

1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina

2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own
b : the act of allowing something : toleration


3 : the allowable deviation from a standard especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

4a(1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (such as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure developed a tolerance to painkillers also : the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen

(2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor
b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

So by this definition tolerance does not mean acceptance.


Some of those you speak of don't hold differing opinions, they hold hateful opinions about their fellow human beings.  And I'm sorry, but tolerating hate is not acceptable.  Hate should be called out and shamed every time it rears its ugly head.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Spam

Quote from: Fester on November 30, 2019, 06:44:49 am
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 29, 2019, 04:02:45 pm
Diversity is a term that is thrown to really mean conformity.  And anytime someone has an opposing view they are labeled as (fill in the blank).  Today's society preaches so much about inclusiveness and tolerance but the majority refuses to tolerate any other view than their own.  I highly doubt this person was selected for diversity purposes and fired for the same reason.  Misuse of that travel card is one of the quickest ways for anyone to get into trouble. 

The allegation was investigated and was substantiated what more do we really need?  Of course those who scream tolerance and diversity will make this about something its not and anyone who disagrees is (fill in the blank). 

The Merriam-Webster definition of tolerance:

Tolerance

1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina

2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own
b : the act of allowing something : toleration


3 : the allowable deviation from a standard especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

4a(1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (such as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure developed a tolerance to painkillers also : the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen

(2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor
b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

So by this definition tolerance does not mean acceptance.


Some of those you speak of don't hold differing opinions, they hold hateful opinions about their fellow human beings.  And I'm sorry, but tolerating hate is not acceptable.  Hate should be called out and shamed every time it rears its ugly head.



Fair enough, if you feel strongly. I am currently trying to urge a homosexual colleague and friend to file a formal statement regarding recent advice she was given to get back in the closet. I've given past statements for multiple HR actions against behavior in and out of CAP (so, I concur that illegal discrimination takes place regularly, and we need to stand against it).  However, I've also served on a (DoD) fatal mishap investigation support team for a pilot who flunked training quals and was pushed through because of diversity quotas (she died), and I worked (first hand, again) to help another pilot who was fully qualified (top in her class) but because of clumsy USMC diversity directives was denied her choice spot and was put into an unsafe cockpit (we got her situation solved). DoD, like CAP and so many other organizations, is filled with fallible fumblenuts who cannot competently manage HR to save their lives (or anyone elses).


Thats why I say: questioning the admittedly clumsy system, and especially expressing doubt as to its role in this specific case, does not necessarily form hate speech. So, I would further argue, appointing oneself as the Thought Police to shut (or shout) someone down is un-American, and is strategically very unwise in that questioning authority and holding the system accountable is a Good Thing for all parties, no matter where on the spectrum we all fall. "Democracy dies in silence", they say, and what you label as an unacceptable opinion and shut down this year sets the stage for future personal liberty violations later on. Let's not lower to the level of jumping to label each other based on our past prejudices and hurts, when most of us on Captalk haven't ever met, even. Let's hear each other out.

And mods, thank you for your patience.


"Freedom of speech means freedom for those who you despise, and freedom to express the most despicable views. It also means that the government cannot pick and choose which expressions to authorize and which to prevent." - Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School.


R/
Spam



abdsp51

Quote from: Fester on November 30, 2019, 06:44:49 am
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 29, 2019, 04:02:45 pm
Diversity is a term that is thrown to really mean conformity.  And anytime someone has an opposing view they are labeled as (fill in the blank).  Today's society preaches so much about inclusiveness and tolerance but the majority refuses to tolerate any other view than their own.  I highly doubt this person was selected for diversity purposes and fired for the same reason.  Misuse of that travel card is one of the quickest ways for anyone to get into trouble. 

The allegation was investigated and was substantiated what more do we really need?  Of course those who scream tolerance and diversity will make this about something its not and anyone who disagrees is (fill in the blank). 

The Merriam-Webster definition of tolerance:

Tolerance

1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina

2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own
b : the act of allowing something : toleration


3 : the allowable deviation from a standard especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

4a(1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (such as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure developed a tolerance to painkillers also : the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen

(2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor
b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

So by this definition tolerance does not mean acceptance.


Some of those you speak of don't hold differing opinions, they hold hateful opinions about their fellow human beings.  And I'm sorry, but tolerating hate is not acceptable.  Hate should be called out and shamed every time it rears its ugly head.


Let's call out the hate every time a cop gets called pig.  Let's call out the hate every time a speaker is denied the opportunity to speak at government and public funded schools.  Let's call out the hate every time a person takes a stand due to their faith.  Let's call out the hate every time the race or sexual orientation card is played just because. 

The gist of it this general got caught doing things she shouldn't have been doing and was dealt with and threw out the orientation card as an excuse.  Best I can tell her orientation had nothing to do with it, it's being used as an excuse.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Fester on November 30, 2019, 06:44:49 am
Some of those you speak of don't hold differing opinions, they hold hateful opinions about their fellow human beings.  And I'm sorry, but tolerating hate is not acceptable.  Hate should be called out and shamed every time it rears its ugly head.

Where is there "HATE" on this thread?

JohhnyD

Quote from: Spam on November 30, 2019, 08:37:19 am
Fair enough, if you feel strongly. I am currently trying to urge a homosexual colleague and friend to file a formal statement regarding recent advice she was given to get back in the closet. I've given past statements for multiple HR actions against behavior in and out of CAP (so, I concur that illegal discrimination takes place regularly, and we need to stand against it).  However, I've also served on a (DoD) fatal mishap investigation support team for a pilot who flunked training quals and was pushed through because of diversity quotas (she died), and I worked (first hand, again) to help another pilot who was fully qualified (top in her class) but because of clumsy USMC diversity directives was denied her choice spot and was put into an unsafe cockpit (we got her situation solved). DoD, like CAP and so many other organizations, is filled with fallible fumblenuts who cannot competently manage HR to save their lives (or anyone elses).


Thats why I say: questioning the admittedly clumsy system, and especially expressing doubt as to its role in this specific case, does not necessarily form hate speech. So, I would further argue, appointing oneself as the Thought Police to shut (or shout) someone down is un-American, and is strategically very unwise in that questioning authority and holding the system accountable is a Good Thing for all parties, no matter where on the spectrum we all fall. "Democracy dies in silence", they say, and what you label as an unacceptable opinion and shut down this year sets the stage for future personal liberty violations later on. Let's not lower to the level of jumping to label each other based on our past prejudices and hurts, when most of us on Captalk haven't ever met, even. Let's hear each other out.

And mods, thank you for your patience.


"Freedom of speech means freedom for those who you despise, and freedom to express the most despicable views. It also means that the government cannot pick and choose which expressions to authorize and which to prevent." - Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School.


R/
Spam

Well said and well reasoned.

THRAWN

Quote from: Fester on November 30, 2019, 06:40:49 am
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2019, 05:49:37 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 30, 2019, 05:25:34 amI have seen life and death missions compromised by this, and yet there are people here (and clearly in the "real world") who want to ignore what is going on.


And I have seen plenty of situations, in business and CAP, where "diverse" people are passed over for lesser qualified "not diverse" people,
and >way< too many men in positions of authority who are threatened to the point of apoplexy over women with an opinion.

CAP did, in fact, have a female National Commander who encountered this exact problem, and scores run into it on a constant basis.

This is a 2-way street.


It has been my experience in life as a member of a minority community that those who complain about "diversity" are merely those who have been passed up for something in life that someone else was selected for that they THOUGHT was "less qualified" but "more diverse." And even if someone were to sit them down and show them exactly why that person might have been more qualified, they will never accept that that might be the case.


And then there are the ever growing number of cases where qualified people are passed over in the name of diversity. And then when that less qualifed diverse person doesn't work out because they are unqualifed, what do you think should happen next? The qualifed person gets the job, right? Wrong. The organization still tries to work that diversity angle and keeps filling the slot with quotas instead of qualifications. First hand experience with this, and it is happening more often. Fill jobs on merit and ability, not because you need a diversity hire.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Eclipse

Quote from: THRAWN on November 30, 2019, 04:06:10 pmin the name of diversity. And then when that less qualifed diverse person doesn't work out because they are unqualifed, what do you think should happen next? The qualifed person gets the job, right? Wrong. The organization still tries to work that diversity angle and keeps filling the slot with quotas instead of qualifications. First hand experience with this, and it is happening more often. Fill jobs on merit and ability, not because you need a diversity hire.


This is neither "new", nor the exclusive domain of the military.

And again, there is zero evidence presented in the articles or by people trying to make that case on CT
that this happened here.

I suppose the ultimate "privilege" is knowing that you can be incompetent / unqualified separate from
anything that makes you diverse.

This has always been my issue when "diversity" or "discrimination" is raised in either direction, it doesn't allow
for people to just fail on merit, which in 99.9% of the cases is the reason.



MSG Mac

This topic has gone off the rails. The original article stated that this woman was relieved of command due to a hostile working environment and some questionable repayment of several travel claims. Unfortunately the original report added in the fact that the General was gay. Relief from command is a common thing in the military and if you check military pages it happens several times a month. The use of the word "GAY" has turned this into an equal rights argument which it isn't.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Eclipse

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 30, 2019, 04:26:30 pm
This topic has gone off the rails. The original article stated that this woman was relieved of command due to a hostile working environment and some questionable repayment of several travel claims. Unfortunately the original report added in the fact that the General was gay. Relief from command is a common thing in the military and if you check military pages it happens several times a month. The use of the word "GAY" has turned this into an equal rights argument which it isn't.


^ This.



abdsp51

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 30, 2019, 04:26:30 pm
This topic has gone off the rails. The original article stated that this woman was relieved of command due to a hostile working environment and some questionable repayment of several travel claims. Unfortunately the original report added in the fact that the General was gay. Relief from command is a common thing in the military and if you check military pages it happens several times a month. The use of the word "GAY" has turned this into an equal rights argument which it isn't.


Exactly.  And since the orientarion was thrown out the SJWs are all over ut making it something it"s and trying to make it as some form of intolerance and xeno/homophobic.

JohhnyD

Quote from: abdsp51 on November 30, 2019, 05:12:45 pm
Exactly.  And since the orientarion was thrown out the SJWs are all over ut making it something it"s and trying to make it as some form of intolerance and xeno/homophobic.

And for the apparent purpose of preventing a robust discussion of the issues. How many have demanded that the thread be shut down?


CAP9907

...and we're done, please see my previous posts here as to why.

~9907
21 yrs of service

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