Fired gay Air Force Academy commandant was ‘toxic’ leader IG finds; she claims d

Started by JohhnyD, November 27, 2019, 08:12:23 am

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OldGuy

Quote from: swodog on November 27, 2019, 12:52:22 pm
And the card is played!

An interesting card at that. Diversity is the new standard, what behaviors are acceptable in the pursuit of same? I have seen similar command issues in recent times in Civil Air Patrol, and so far it appears that the goal of diversity trumps all other rules, regulations, and values. I hope we see a reset or HWSNBN will start looking like the norm rather than the aberration. At least, in my opinion, your mileage may vary.

dwb

Shall we enumerate all of the white men who have misused travel expenses and fostered unhealthy work environments?

This has nothing to do with diversity. If the article's allegations are true, then she was relieved from her position without regard to her gender or sexuality. Which is how you want the system to operate.

In other words, an intentionally inflammatory headline for an utterly mundane removal from command.

OldGuy

Quote from: dwb on November 27, 2019, 03:57:47 pm
This has nothing to do with diversity. If the article's allegations are true, then she was relieved from her position without regard to her gender or sexuality. Which is how you want the system to operate.

Wrong. When diversity becomes more important than the core values, you get the "affirmative action" syndrome of not qualified folks being raised into positions of authority for diversities sake instead of the mission. The question is not why she was relived but why she was put in command in the first place.

Eclipse

Quote from: OldGuy on November 27, 2019, 06:25:20 pmThe question is not why she was relived but why she was put in command in the first place.


Got it - all is clear now.

Apparently her extensive experience as a pilot, commander, and high-level staff officer would not justify this posting?

The whole thing is ridiculous both from the way she was treated and the way it was handled publicly. She clearly stepped on someone's toes,
likely another star, who then decided to "make a point", by putting a little "going away smudge" on her time as commandant, which
was already essentially over.

Considering she was probably already packing to leave for her next job, anyone with more common sense then agenda would have
simply delayed her arrival at the JFSCC instead of trying to make hay out of nonsense.

"Travel Policy Violations" is code for "don't get too big for your britches.



NIN

Quote from: OldGuy on November 27, 2019, 06:25:20 pm
Quote from: dwb on November 27, 2019, 03:57:47 pm
This has nothing to do with diversity. If the article's allegations are true, then she was relieved from her position without regard to her gender or sexuality. Which is how you want the system to operate.

Wrong. When diversity becomes more important than the core values, you get the "affirmative action" syndrome of not qualified folks being raised into positions of authority for diversities sake instead of the mission. The question is not why she was relived but why she was put in command in the first place.


Thats not wrong. Thats a larger issue within the force and how leaders in the Air Force are selected and "bubble to the top" in spite of toxic leadership traits.  This is a problem regardless of the sexual orientation, gender or race of the individual.

It has become a serious problem in the USAF. Serious enough that an active duty colonel took a potentially career-ending risk to write about it (https://warontherocks.com/2018/05/a-call-for-senior-officer-reform-in-the-air-force-an-insiders-perspective/). And then he was subsequently lauded by the USAF Cheif of Staff and engaged to help start to change it (https://warontherocks.com/2018/09/promoting-what-we-value-in-the-air-force-wouldnt-that-be-nice/).

But change isn't one rando colonel or even a Chief of Staff, because the level and scope of change we're talking above here is on a global scale and something that moves at a glacial pace (due to the fact that it can take upwards of 20 years for people who benefitted under the "old" system to finally be out of that system)

Toxic leadership existed before women and people of different sexual orientations ascended to positions of leadership & power.  Its not a diversity thing, its an organizational thing.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

shuman14

QuoteToxic leadership existed before women and people of different sexual orientations ascended to positions of leadership & power.  Its not a diversity thing, its an organizational thing.


:clap:
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present


JohhnyD

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on November 27, 2019, 09:40:13 pm
A better story with more details, and less incendiary title.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/11/22/ig-found-former-academy-commandant-misused-travel-had-poor-command-climate-she-will-seek-redress-for-firing/


Quote
The inspector general report substantiated allegations of improper travel practices, including conducting personal business while on official government travel, and having a cadet charge some of her travel expenses to his card while traveling to the red carpet premiere of "Captain Marvel" in Hollywood.

It also found she failed to maintain a healthy command climate by making false or untruthful statements, unnecessarily blaming her staff for her own shortfalls, and that she made decisions and conducted herself in a way that led others to view her as a "self-serving" leader.


These traits had to have developed over her career. What caused leadership to place her in charge of the USAFA? WSas it her stellar record, or a desire to get a diversity goal met?

JohhnyD

Also see https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/03/21/bomber-pilot-picked-to-be-the-air-force-academy-s-commandant-of-cadets/

She previously led the 2nd Bomb Wing at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, becoming the wing's first female commander. Before that, she served as the vice commander of the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.

Again, was diversity the reason for the selection?

PHall

Quote from: JohhnyD on November 28, 2019, 02:14:09 am
Also see https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/03/21/bomber-pilot-picked-to-be-the-air-force-academy-s-commandant-of-cadets/

She previously led the 2nd Bomb Wing at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, becoming the wing's first female commander. Before that, she served as the vice commander of the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.

Again, was diversity the reason for the selection?


No, it seems that a successful Wing Command tour earned her a chance for the Commandant job.
It was government travel card fraud that ended it.

Eclipse

No fraud has been alleged, only violation of policy, and she is still seeking redress, so the matter
is not closed.



Gunsotsu

Oh goody. Another post for the troglodytes to showcase their ignorance and intolerance.

Shut this down.

JohhnyD

Quote from: PHall on November 28, 2019, 02:44:28 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 28, 2019, 02:14:09 am
Also see https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/03/21/bomber-pilot-picked-to-be-the-air-force-academy-s-commandant-of-cadets/

She previously led the 2nd Bomb Wing at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, becoming the wing's first female commander. Before that, she served as the vice commander of the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.

Again, was diversity the reason for the selection?


No, it seems that a successful Wing Command tour earned her a chance for the Commandant job.
It was government travel card fraud that ended it.

That is her most recent job, the question was about her prior job, was that another diversity pick? And BTW her recent command was lost for multiple reasons including command climate.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Gunsotsu on November 28, 2019, 03:26:07 am
Oh goody. Another post for the troglodytes to showcase their ignorance and intolerance.

Shut this down.

"troglodytes"?

That shows an amazing contempt for others. Respect dude, including respecting differences of opinion, right?

JohhnyD

QuoteIt also found she failed to maintain a healthy command climate by making false or untruthful statements, unnecessarily blaming her staff for her own shortfalls, and that she made decisions and conducted herself in a way that led others to view her as a "self-serving" leader.


CAP9907

Settle down please, name calling is not helpful. Thread cleaned, last warning pls. 

~9907
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

CAPLTC

Did you have any direct experience with the Commandant in-question?
Of course not.
You have so much to say, about every topic, but are always short on facts.
Sometimes I think you're a chat bot, just to keep the place interesting.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2019, 06:41:04 pm

The whole thing is ridiculous both from the way she was treated and the way it was handled publicly. She clearly stepped on someone's toes,
likely another star, who then decided to "make a point", by putting a little "going away smudge" on her time as commandant, which
was already essentially over.

"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they're so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis

MSG Mac

Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2019, 02:46:07 am
No fraud has been alleged, only violation of policy, and she is still seeking redress, so the matter
is not closed.


AF Times states that she had a cadet use their government credit card to pay for some travel expenses
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Fester

Quote from: JohhnyD on November 28, 2019, 03:29:14 am
Quote from: PHall on November 28, 2019, 02:44:28 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 28, 2019, 02:14:09 am
Also see https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/03/21/bomber-pilot-picked-to-be-the-air-force-academy-s-commandant-of-cadets/

She previously led the 2nd Bomb Wing at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, becoming the wing's first female commander. Before that, she served as the vice commander of the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.

Again, was diversity the reason for the selection?


No, it seems that a successful Wing Command tour earned her a chance for the Commandant job.
It was government travel card fraud that ended it.

That is her most recent job, the question was about her prior job, was that another diversity pick? And BTW her recent command was lost for multiple reasons including command climate.


What grounds do you have, other than your own insecurities rearing their anti-diversity head, that she was ever selected for ANY position merely due to her gender or sexual orientation?

Sure are a lot of unproven assumptions floating around....
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Spam

Quote from: Fester on November 29, 2019, 07:15:10 am

What grounds do you have, other than your own insecurities rearing their anti-diversity head, that she was ever selected for ANY position merely due to her gender or sexual orientation?

Sure are a lot of unproven assumptions floating around....



Hey, Fester - if you strike that one phrase, you've got a really strong, solid line of questioning there. Suggest sticking to your central point without the ad hominems.

V/r
Spam



abdsp51

Diversity is a term that is thrown to really mean conformity.  And anytime someone has an opposing view they are labeled as (fill in the blank).  Today's society preaches so much about inclusiveness and tolerance but the majority refuses to tolerate any other view than their own.  I highly doubt this person was selected for diversity purposes and fired for the same reason.  Misuse of that travel card is one of the quickest ways for anyone to get into trouble. 

The allegation was investigated and was substantiated what more do we really need?  Of course those who scream tolerance and diversity will make this about something its not and anyone who disagrees is (fill in the blank). 

The Merriam-Webster definition of tolerance:

Tolerance

1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina

2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own
b : the act of allowing something : toleration


3 : the allowable deviation from a standard especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

4a(1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (such as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure developed a tolerance to painkillers also : the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen

(2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor
b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

So by this definition tolerance does not mean acceptance. 

OldGuy

Quote from: Fester on November 29, 2019, 07:15:10 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 28, 2019, 03:29:14 am
Quote from: PHall on November 28, 2019, 02:44:28 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 28, 2019, 02:14:09 am
Also see https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/03/21/bomber-pilot-picked-to-be-the-air-force-academy-s-commandant-of-cadets/

She previously led the 2nd Bomb Wing at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, becoming the wing's first female commander. Before that, she served as the vice commander of the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.

Again, was diversity the reason for the selection?


No, it seems that a successful Wing Command tour earned her a chance for the Commandant job.
It was government travel card fraud that ended it.

That is her most recent job, the question was about her prior job, was that another diversity pick? And BTW her recent command was lost for multiple reasons including command climate.


What grounds do you have, other than your own insecurities rearing their anti-diversity head, that she was ever selected for ANY position merely due to her gender or sexual orientation?

Sure are a lot of unproven assumptions floating around....

Maybe because DIVERSITY has become the trump card in the service?

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2016/09/30/air-force-aims-to-improve-diversity-of-pilots-other-key-positions/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-airforce-diversity-idUSKBN0M02CF20150304




Eclipse

[Verloop]
So "diversity" is the singular and only reason this officer was "gifted" the job, but a hostile work environment
based on the same factors that made this officer "diverse" isn't even a possibility.

It's always nice to see when people make things crystal clear.

[/Verloop]




OldGuy

Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2019, 05:26:09 pm
[Verloop]
So "diversity" is the singular and only reason this officer was "gifted" the job, but a hostile work environment
based on the same factors that made this officer "diverse" isn't even a possibility.

It's always nice to see when people make things crystal clear.

[/Verloop]


Coding failure and logic failure as well.

PHall

Quote from: OldGuy on November 29, 2019, 04:30:15 pm
Quote from: Fester on November 29, 2019, 07:15:10 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 28, 2019, 03:29:14 am
Quote from: PHall on November 28, 2019, 02:44:28 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 28, 2019, 02:14:09 am
Also see https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/03/21/bomber-pilot-picked-to-be-the-air-force-academy-s-commandant-of-cadets/

She previously led the 2nd Bomb Wing at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, becoming the wing's first female commander. Before that, she served as the vice commander of the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.

Again, was diversity the reason for the selection?


No, it seems that a successful Wing Command tour earned her a chance for the Commandant job.
It was government travel card fraud that ended it.

That is her most recent job, the question was about her prior job, was that another diversity pick? And BTW her recent command was lost for multiple reasons including command climate.


What grounds do you have, other than your own insecurities rearing their anti-diversity head, that she was ever selected for ANY position merely due to her gender or sexual orientation?

Sure are a lot of unproven assumptions floating around....

Maybe because DIVERSITY has become the trump card in the service?

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2016/09/30/air-force-aims-to-improve-diversity-of-pilots-other-key-positions/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-airforce-diversity-idUSKBN0M02CF20150304



The military has changed a lot over the years. For example the military I joined in 1974 was very, very different from the military I retired from in 2005.
And diversity has been a thing in the military since the services were integrated back in 1947.

abdsp51

Quote from: PHall on November 29, 2019, 08:04:44 pm
The military has changed a lot over the years. For example the military I joined in 1974 was very, very different from the military I retired from in 2005.
And diversity has been a thing in the military since the services were integrated back in 1947.


Truth!!!.  The Air Force changed a lot over the course of my time in, and thankfully I'm glad I popped smoke when I did. 

JohhnyD

Quote from: PHall on November 29, 2019, 08:04:44 pm
And diversity has been a thing in the military since the services were integrated back in 1947.

It  has become THE thing though, even at the expense of the mission. That is the problem, this is the result.

PHall

Quote from: JohhnyD on November 29, 2019, 09:25:50 pm
Quote from: PHall on November 29, 2019, 08:04:44 pm
And diversity has been a thing in the military since the services were integrated back in 1947.

It  has become THE thing though, even at the expense of the mission. That is the problem, this is the result.


Do you any first hand experience or is this is a "I read this on the internet?"

JohhnyD

Quote from: PHall on November 29, 2019, 10:11:32 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 29, 2019, 09:25:50 pm
Quote from: PHall on November 29, 2019, 08:04:44 pm
And diversity has been a thing in the military since the services were integrated back in 1947.

It  has become THE thing though, even at the expense of the mission. That is the problem, this is the result.


Do you any first hand experience or is this is a "I read this on the internet?"

First hand.

Larry Mangum

Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-SWR-001

Larry Mangum

After consulting, with another moderator, I a going to open this back up, however, if I feel it gets out of line and frankly I feel that it is on the edge, I will lock it again.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-SWR-001

CAP9907

Thank you, Sir.

Everyone here has been warned, and some personally via PM. I've locked and cleaned this thread twice now. We will not do it a 3rd time... our Members Code of Conduct is linked below: please proceed accordingly.

~9907
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

JohhnyD

Quote from: CAP9907 on November 30, 2019, 04:46:40 am
Thank you, Sir.

Everyone here has been warned, and some personally via PM. I've locked and cleaned this thread twice now. We will not do it a 3rd time... our Members Code of Conduct is linked below: please proceed accordingly.

~9907

If we cannot discuss these issues with respect, what hope is there that CAP senior leadership will? There are real issues here, and real-world consequences. I have seen life and death missions compromised by this, and yet there are people here (and clearly in the "real world") who want to ignore what is going on. How many real-world tragedies are acceptable at the altar of "diversity"?

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on November 30, 2019, 05:25:34 amHow many real-world tragedies are acceptable at the altar of "diversity"?


The problem with that statement/question, is that you have presented zero evidence that "diversity" had anything to
do with this officer getting the job in question, unless by "diversity" you mean "women in the military", and if you
do, that ship has sailed.

Her resume and experience were equal to or in excess of her peers and predecessors, so that's off the table.
She wasn't even the first female commandant, not by almost 10 years.

Unless you can provide actual evidence that more highly qualified candidates were passed over, then you have no argument to make.
Or by the same token, unless you can refute her claims of a hostile work environment, the same is true.

What happened here is so clear it's ridiculous, and further to support that, she's still a General, still in a high-visibility / influential position,
and still has options in regards to redress, so the final word on this isn't even written.

I guarantee you the things she is getting hit with are happening all over this country, right now, and no one cares a lick.
Generals are attending retirements, extending an "official" DC visit for Thanksgiving so they can visit their family, etc., and
a few forgot their corporate cards and need to ask an aide to cover things until they get back to the office and straighten it all out.



Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on November 30, 2019, 05:25:34 amI have seen life and death missions compromised by this, and yet there are people here (and clearly in the "real world") who want to ignore what is going on.


And I have seen plenty of situations, in business and CAP, where "diverse" people are passed over for lesser qualified "not diverse" people,
and >way< too many men in positions of authority who are threatened to the point of apoplexy over women with an opinion.

CAP did, in fact, have a female National Commander who encountered this exact problem, and scores run into it on a constant basis.

This is a 2-way street.



PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2019, 05:46:19 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 30, 2019, 05:25:34 amHow many real-world tragedies are acceptable at the altar of "diversity"?


The problem with that statement/question, is that you have presented zero evidence that "diversity" had anything to
do with this officer getting the job in question, unless by "diversity" you mean "women in the military", and if you
do, that ship has sailed.

Her resume and experience were equal to or in excess of her peers and predecessors, so that's off the table.
She wasn't even the first female commandant, not by almost 10 years.

Unless you can provide actual evidence that more highly qualified candidates were passed over, then you have no argument to make.
Or by the same token, unless you can refute her claims of a hostile work environment, the same is true.

What happened here is so clear it's ridiculous, and further to support that, she's still a General, still in a high-visibility / influential position,
and still has options in regards to redress, so the final word on this isn't even written.

I guarantee you the things she is getting hit with are happening all over this country, right now, and no one cares a lick.
Generals are attending retirements, extending an "official" DC visit for Thanksgiving so they can visit their family, etc., and
a few forgot their corporate cards and need to ask an aide to cover things until they get back to the office and straighten it all out.


According to the AF Times she didn't forget her travel card, it was suspended.

Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2019, 05:50:14 am
According to the AF Times she didn't forget her travel card, it was suspended.


Fair enough, though I was making a generalization, not specific to this instance.

With that said, one could certainly ask >why< it was suspended, and what the USAF's expectation
was then when she was on official business (per the article) for at least some of the travel with a suspended credit card.
You only have to have dealt with a pedantic bureaucracy to know all the fun ways that you can make trouble for
people indirectly.

Also, anyone here who has dealt with the media knows exactly how accurate they can be on a micro-detail like that,
so we can't exactly litigate it here without first hand knowledge, and for those portending to have that info,
unless you can prove it, it's meaningless here.



Fester

Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2019, 05:49:37 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 30, 2019, 05:25:34 amI have seen life and death missions compromised by this, and yet there are people here (and clearly in the "real world") who want to ignore what is going on.


And I have seen plenty of situations, in business and CAP, where "diverse" people are passed over for lesser qualified "not diverse" people,
and >way< too many men in positions of authority who are threatened to the point of apoplexy over women with an opinion.

CAP did, in fact, have a female National Commander who encountered this exact problem, and scores run into it on a constant basis.

This is a 2-way street.


It has been my experience in life as a member of a minority community that those who complain about "diversity" are merely those who have been passed up for something in life that someone else was selected for that they THOUGHT was "less qualified" but "more diverse." And even if someone were to sit them down and show them exactly why that person might have been more qualified, they will never accept that that might be the case.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Fester

Quote from: abdsp51 on November 29, 2019, 04:02:45 pm
Diversity is a term that is thrown to really mean conformity.  And anytime someone has an opposing view they are labeled as (fill in the blank).  Today's society preaches so much about inclusiveness and tolerance but the majority refuses to tolerate any other view than their own.  I highly doubt this person was selected for diversity purposes and fired for the same reason.  Misuse of that travel card is one of the quickest ways for anyone to get into trouble. 

The allegation was investigated and was substantiated what more do we really need?  Of course those who scream tolerance and diversity will make this about something its not and anyone who disagrees is (fill in the blank). 

The Merriam-Webster definition of tolerance:

Tolerance

1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina

2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own
b : the act of allowing something : toleration


3 : the allowable deviation from a standard especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

4a(1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (such as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure developed a tolerance to painkillers also : the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen

(2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor
b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

So by this definition tolerance does not mean acceptance.


Some of those you speak of don't hold differing opinions, they hold hateful opinions about their fellow human beings.  And I'm sorry, but tolerating hate is not acceptable.  Hate should be called out and shamed every time it rears its ugly head.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

Spam

Quote from: Fester on November 30, 2019, 06:44:49 am
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 29, 2019, 04:02:45 pm
Diversity is a term that is thrown to really mean conformity.  And anytime someone has an opposing view they are labeled as (fill in the blank).  Today's society preaches so much about inclusiveness and tolerance but the majority refuses to tolerate any other view than their own.  I highly doubt this person was selected for diversity purposes and fired for the same reason.  Misuse of that travel card is one of the quickest ways for anyone to get into trouble. 

The allegation was investigated and was substantiated what more do we really need?  Of course those who scream tolerance and diversity will make this about something its not and anyone who disagrees is (fill in the blank). 

The Merriam-Webster definition of tolerance:

Tolerance

1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina

2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own
b : the act of allowing something : toleration


3 : the allowable deviation from a standard especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

4a(1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (such as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure developed a tolerance to painkillers also : the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen

(2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor
b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

So by this definition tolerance does not mean acceptance.


Some of those you speak of don't hold differing opinions, they hold hateful opinions about their fellow human beings.  And I'm sorry, but tolerating hate is not acceptable.  Hate should be called out and shamed every time it rears its ugly head.



Fair enough, if you feel strongly. I am currently trying to urge a homosexual colleague and friend to file a formal statement regarding recent advice she was given to get back in the closet. I've given past statements for multiple HR actions against behavior in and out of CAP (so, I concur that illegal discrimination takes place regularly, and we need to stand against it).  However, I've also served on a (DoD) fatal mishap investigation support team for a pilot who flunked training quals and was pushed through because of diversity quotas (she died), and I worked (first hand, again) to help another pilot who was fully qualified (top in her class) but because of clumsy USMC diversity directives was denied her choice spot and was put into an unsafe cockpit (we got her situation solved). DoD, like CAP and so many other organizations, is filled with fallible fumblenuts who cannot competently manage HR to save their lives (or anyone elses).


Thats why I say: questioning the admittedly clumsy system, and especially expressing doubt as to its role in this specific case, does not necessarily form hate speech. So, I would further argue, appointing oneself as the Thought Police to shut (or shout) someone down is un-American, and is strategically very unwise in that questioning authority and holding the system accountable is a Good Thing for all parties, no matter where on the spectrum we all fall. "Democracy dies in silence", they say, and what you label as an unacceptable opinion and shut down this year sets the stage for future personal liberty violations later on. Let's not lower to the level of jumping to label each other based on our past prejudices and hurts, when most of us on Captalk haven't ever met, even. Let's hear each other out.

And mods, thank you for your patience.


"Freedom of speech means freedom for those who you despise, and freedom to express the most despicable views. It also means that the government cannot pick and choose which expressions to authorize and which to prevent." - Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School.


R/
Spam



abdsp51

Quote from: Fester on November 30, 2019, 06:44:49 am
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 29, 2019, 04:02:45 pm
Diversity is a term that is thrown to really mean conformity.  And anytime someone has an opposing view they are labeled as (fill in the blank).  Today's society preaches so much about inclusiveness and tolerance but the majority refuses to tolerate any other view than their own.  I highly doubt this person was selected for diversity purposes and fired for the same reason.  Misuse of that travel card is one of the quickest ways for anyone to get into trouble. 

The allegation was investigated and was substantiated what more do we really need?  Of course those who scream tolerance and diversity will make this about something its not and anyone who disagrees is (fill in the blank). 

The Merriam-Webster definition of tolerance:

Tolerance

1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina

2a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own
b : the act of allowing something : toleration


3 : the allowable deviation from a standard especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

4a(1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (such as a drug) or a physiological insult especially with repeated use or exposure developed a tolerance to painkillers also : the immunological state marked by unresponsiveness to a specific antigen

(2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor
b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food

So by this definition tolerance does not mean acceptance.


Some of those you speak of don't hold differing opinions, they hold hateful opinions about their fellow human beings.  And I'm sorry, but tolerating hate is not acceptable.  Hate should be called out and shamed every time it rears its ugly head.


Let's call out the hate every time a cop gets called pig.  Let's call out the hate every time a speaker is denied the opportunity to speak at government and public funded schools.  Let's call out the hate every time a person takes a stand due to their faith.  Let's call out the hate every time the race or sexual orientation card is played just because. 

The gist of it this general got caught doing things she shouldn't have been doing and was dealt with and threw out the orientation card as an excuse.  Best I can tell her orientation had nothing to do with it, it's being used as an excuse.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Fester on November 30, 2019, 06:44:49 am
Some of those you speak of don't hold differing opinions, they hold hateful opinions about their fellow human beings.  And I'm sorry, but tolerating hate is not acceptable.  Hate should be called out and shamed every time it rears its ugly head.

Where is there "HATE" on this thread?

JohhnyD

Quote from: Spam on November 30, 2019, 08:37:19 am
Fair enough, if you feel strongly. I am currently trying to urge a homosexual colleague and friend to file a formal statement regarding recent advice she was given to get back in the closet. I've given past statements for multiple HR actions against behavior in and out of CAP (so, I concur that illegal discrimination takes place regularly, and we need to stand against it).  However, I've also served on a (DoD) fatal mishap investigation support team for a pilot who flunked training quals and was pushed through because of diversity quotas (she died), and I worked (first hand, again) to help another pilot who was fully qualified (top in her class) but because of clumsy USMC diversity directives was denied her choice spot and was put into an unsafe cockpit (we got her situation solved). DoD, like CAP and so many other organizations, is filled with fallible fumblenuts who cannot competently manage HR to save their lives (or anyone elses).


Thats why I say: questioning the admittedly clumsy system, and especially expressing doubt as to its role in this specific case, does not necessarily form hate speech. So, I would further argue, appointing oneself as the Thought Police to shut (or shout) someone down is un-American, and is strategically very unwise in that questioning authority and holding the system accountable is a Good Thing for all parties, no matter where on the spectrum we all fall. "Democracy dies in silence", they say, and what you label as an unacceptable opinion and shut down this year sets the stage for future personal liberty violations later on. Let's not lower to the level of jumping to label each other based on our past prejudices and hurts, when most of us on Captalk haven't ever met, even. Let's hear each other out.

And mods, thank you for your patience.


"Freedom of speech means freedom for those who you despise, and freedom to express the most despicable views. It also means that the government cannot pick and choose which expressions to authorize and which to prevent." - Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School.


R/
Spam

Well said and well reasoned.

THRAWN

Quote from: Fester on November 30, 2019, 06:40:49 am
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2019, 05:49:37 am
Quote from: JohhnyD on November 30, 2019, 05:25:34 amI have seen life and death missions compromised by this, and yet there are people here (and clearly in the "real world") who want to ignore what is going on.


And I have seen plenty of situations, in business and CAP, where "diverse" people are passed over for lesser qualified "not diverse" people,
and >way< too many men in positions of authority who are threatened to the point of apoplexy over women with an opinion.

CAP did, in fact, have a female National Commander who encountered this exact problem, and scores run into it on a constant basis.

This is a 2-way street.


It has been my experience in life as a member of a minority community that those who complain about "diversity" are merely those who have been passed up for something in life that someone else was selected for that they THOUGHT was "less qualified" but "more diverse." And even if someone were to sit them down and show them exactly why that person might have been more qualified, they will never accept that that might be the case.


And then there are the ever growing number of cases where qualified people are passed over in the name of diversity. And then when that less qualifed diverse person doesn't work out because they are unqualifed, what do you think should happen next? The qualifed person gets the job, right? Wrong. The organization still tries to work that diversity angle and keeps filling the slot with quotas instead of qualifications. First hand experience with this, and it is happening more often. Fill jobs on merit and ability, not because you need a diversity hire.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Eclipse

Quote from: THRAWN on November 30, 2019, 04:06:10 pmin the name of diversity. And then when that less qualifed diverse person doesn't work out because they are unqualifed, what do you think should happen next? The qualifed person gets the job, right? Wrong. The organization still tries to work that diversity angle and keeps filling the slot with quotas instead of qualifications. First hand experience with this, and it is happening more often. Fill jobs on merit and ability, not because you need a diversity hire.


This is neither "new", nor the exclusive domain of the military.

And again, there is zero evidence presented in the articles or by people trying to make that case on CT
that this happened here.

I suppose the ultimate "privilege" is knowing that you can be incompetent / unqualified separate from
anything that makes you diverse.

This has always been my issue when "diversity" or "discrimination" is raised in either direction, it doesn't allow
for people to just fail on merit, which in 99.9% of the cases is the reason.



MSG Mac

This topic has gone off the rails. The original article stated that this woman was relieved of command due to a hostile working environment and some questionable repayment of several travel claims. Unfortunately the original report added in the fact that the General was gay. Relief from command is a common thing in the military and if you check military pages it happens several times a month. The use of the word "GAY" has turned this into an equal rights argument which it isn't.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Eclipse

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 30, 2019, 04:26:30 pm
This topic has gone off the rails. The original article stated that this woman was relieved of command due to a hostile working environment and some questionable repayment of several travel claims. Unfortunately the original report added in the fact that the General was gay. Relief from command is a common thing in the military and if you check military pages it happens several times a month. The use of the word "GAY" has turned this into an equal rights argument which it isn't.


^ This.



abdsp51

Quote from: MSG Mac on November 30, 2019, 04:26:30 pm
This topic has gone off the rails. The original article stated that this woman was relieved of command due to a hostile working environment and some questionable repayment of several travel claims. Unfortunately the original report added in the fact that the General was gay. Relief from command is a common thing in the military and if you check military pages it happens several times a month. The use of the word "GAY" has turned this into an equal rights argument which it isn't.


Exactly.  And since the orientarion was thrown out the SJWs are all over ut making it something it"s and trying to make it as some form of intolerance and xeno/homophobic.

JohhnyD

Quote from: abdsp51 on November 30, 2019, 05:12:45 pm
Exactly.  And since the orientarion was thrown out the SJWs are all over ut making it something it"s and trying to make it as some form of intolerance and xeno/homophobic.

And for the apparent purpose of preventing a robust discussion of the issues. How many have demanded that the thread be shut down?


CAP9907

...and we're done, please see my previous posts here as to why.

~9907
21 yrs of service

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