July 04, 2020, 05:43:20 pm

Tribal Land Squadron question

Started by Holding Pattern, October 30, 2019, 03:03:14 am

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Holding Pattern

If a squadron was chartered on tribal lands, in its chartering could it choose to not affiliate with the state in which that land resides and affiliate direct with NHQ?

Gunsotsu

As the wing CC has to initiate the activation, I don't see how.

Fubar

Tribal lands are sovereign in regards to the law, however squadron charters fall solely under the purview of NHQ who decides what wing your chartered unit is a member of. And it's gonna be the state that you're in.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Gunsotsu on October 30, 2019, 05:22:21 am
As the wing CC has to initiate the activation, I don't see how.


The protocol could be the same as it would for an overseas squadron, so that is the "how."

Fester

Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 30, 2019, 03:03:14 am
If a squadron was chartered on tribal lands, in its chartering could it choose to not affiliate with the state in which that land resides and affiliate direct with NHQ?


For what reason?
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SarDragon

October 30, 2019, 06:19:38 am #5 Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 06:27:01 am by SarDragon
My spidey sense says no.

That said, why would you want to do that? I was in an overseas squadron, which has the same arrangement, and it was mostly a major PITA.
Check out the reg for overseas units to see all the details. CAPR 35-4
Dave Bowles
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FW

What an interesting question.  I would guess the answer is no.  CAP is a non profit corporation, and is not a governmental agency.  It's organizational structure is based on corporate policy, which could change by a majority vote of the Board of Governors.  That said, I don't think this question ever was brought up.  Maybe a CAP LC officer would chime in...

Flying Pig

Quote from: Fubar on October 30, 2019, 05:24:13 am
Tribal lands are sovereign in regards to the law, however squadron charters fall solely under the purview of NHQ who decides what wing your chartered unit is a member of. And it's gonna be the state that you're in.


Well.... "sovereign" to a point.   Right up until the Sheriff comes and gets you on your tribal land and takes you to jail.  A lot of that depends on the state.

GroundHawg

There is a new and very active Tribal based squadron in AZ. They dont seem to have any issues being affiliated with AZ, so maybe being an overseas squadron is more trouble than it is worth?

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2018/04/27/navajo-cadets/


abdsp51

Overseas charter wouldn't apply here.  Doesn't meet the criteria.

Flying Pig

Im fairly sure the reservation where I worked had a Boyscout troop.  Wouldnt that be along the same lines?

NIN

So a few qualifying/framing questions:
Are there other national youth-serving organizations on the reservation? (Boys & Girls Club, scouting of various flavors, Naval Sea Cadet Corps units?)

If yes, how do they affiliate with their parent organization? Directly to NHQ, or via the state-level or sub-state-level (ie. "district or council") organization?

If the former, then lets find out why.  If the latter, then there's your answer.

Bottom line: CAPR 35-4 governs operations of "overseas squadrons."  Some cherry-picked excerpts:

QuoteThe purpose of Civil Air Patrol (CAP) overseas squadrons is to provide an organizational unit that will make the Cadet Program available to US dependent youth overseas

(emphasis mine)

Are we talking about "US [military] dependent youth?" No.
Are we talking about "US [military] dependent youth [in a foreign country]?" No.

OK, so right there, we don't meet the purpose of a CAP overseas squadron.

How about the definition?

QuoteFor the purpose of this regulation, an overseas squadron is defined as a CAP cadet unit located outside the United States, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

(again, emphasis mine)

Is the reservation outside the United States, PR or the VI? No.

So we don't meet the definition of an overseas squadron.

But wait, there's more!

QuoteCharters will be limited to cadet squadrons on overseas US Air Force installations. Charters on Air Force installations will be granted only upon request by the installation's commander. <snippage>

(for the last time, emphasis mine)

Would this unit be chartered on a US Air Force installation? No.
Would a unit not on a US Air Force installation have an installation commander to request a unit? Nope.

Therefore, we wouldn't even come close to the initial policy objective of the regulation (aka "The commander's intent.")

We don't even need to delve into para 5, Membership Restrictions, which talks about Status of Forces agreements.  Because we pretty much covered the flyby.




Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
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flyboy53

October 30, 2019, 05:55:02 pm #12 Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 06:21:21 pm by flyboy53
The answer is in CAPR 20-1 and 20-3. Remember that CAP is a federally chartered organization with an organizational structure of regions and wings that basically follow state boundaries. Although tribal lands are most generally sovereign entities, the U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs, municipal authorities and local or state government entities have overlapping authority -- such as police, fire departments, county and municipal governments and school districts. Ultimately the appropriate wing commander makes the determination about the charter, which also places the unit under his or her jurisdiction and command authority.

Overseas squadrons, on the otherhand, are governed under CAPR 35-4 and are provided a limited type of charter with conditions. The biggest of these conditions is that the unit MUST be on a military installation under American military control. The other major condition is that unit is basically a cadet squadron without an Emergency Services mission, no aircraft or vehicles.

Why would you want to do that anyway? From my own experience, Native American youth here usually prefer to travel to the nearest CAP unit at the local airport (about 20 miles away) to derive the membership benefits and opportunties of that unit -- part of a several squadron group. In addition, the school on the reservation is a public school with athletic teams actively participating in a regional conference of similar local schools.









Holding Pattern

Thank you all for the polite answers, citations, and research. I think I have everything I need here.

SARDOC

I think the thought that it has be be affiliated with a state is a misnomer as well.  I think it's just an administrative designation established by NHQ for organizational purposes.  For Example. The National Capital Wing is based in DC, technically, not within the confines of a state but a territory.  However, the NATCAP wing, also has squadrons, that clearly fall within the state borders of Maryland and Virginia.

Just an unusual circumstance that I'd thought to highlight given the topic

Holding Pattern

Quote from: SARDOC on November 03, 2019, 04:02:00 am
I think the thought that it has be be affiliated with a state is a misnomer as well.  I think it's just an administrative designation established by NHQ for organizational purposes.  For Example. The National Capital Wing is based in DC, technically, not within the confines of a state but a territory.  However, the NATCAP wing, also has squadrons, that clearly fall within the state borders of Maryland and Virginia.

Just an unusual circumstance that I'd thought to highlight given the topic


Interesting. So if a tribe wanted to charter a squadron under natcap wing in the same vein as there are tribes that want to work directly with the federal level instead of the state on disaster response, those squadrons you mentioned could be considered precedent for such an action perhaps.

NIN

No. DC Wing isn't "federal."

Thats not how any of it works.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
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Toad1168

Quote from: Holding Pattern on November 05, 2019, 08:18:58 pm
Quote from: SARDOC on November 03, 2019, 04:02:00 am
I think the thought that it has be be affiliated with a state is a misnomer as well.  I think it's just an administrative designation established by NHQ for organizational purposes.  For Example. The National Capital Wing is based in DC, technically, not within the confines of a state but a territory.  However, the NATCAP wing, also has squadrons, that clearly fall within the state borders of Maryland and Virginia.

Just an unusual circumstance that I'd thought to highlight given the topic


Interesting. So if a tribe wanted to charter a squadron under natcap wing in the same vein as there are tribes that want to work directly with the federal level instead of the state on disaster response, those squadrons you mentioned could be considered precedent for such an action perhaps.


But NATCAP Wing operates as a Wing just like every other wing, with squadrons answering to the Wing not NHQ as overseas squadrons do.  So what would the difference be?
Toad

PHall

Quote from: Flying Pig on October 30, 2019, 12:05:52 pm
Quote from: Fubar on October 30, 2019, 05:24:13 am
Tribal lands are sovereign in regards to the law, however squadron charters fall solely under the purview of NHQ who decides what wing your chartered unit is a member of. And it's gonna be the state that you're in.


Well.... "sovereign" to a point.   Right up until the Sheriff comes and gets you on your tribal land and takes you to jail.  A lot of that depends on the state.



You guys were allowed on the Reservation only because the Tribe said you could come on the Reservation.
More then a few Tribes have banned State/County/City Law Enforcement from their Reservations. Usually because of stupidity on one or both sides in the past.
Most of the tribes here in California have no problems with the local sheriff coming on to their Reservation.
Don't even think of it on the Navajo Reservation in Arizona.

Eclipse




SarDragon

Quote from: PHall on November 05, 2019, 09:32:09 pm
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 30, 2019, 12:05:52 pm
Quote from: Fubar on October 30, 2019, 05:24:13 am
Tribal lands are sovereign in regards to the law, however squadron charters fall solely under the purview of NHQ who decides what wing your chartered unit is a member of. And it's gonna be the state that you're in.


Well.... "sovereign" to a point.   Right up until the Sheriff comes and gets you on your tribal land and takes you to jail.  A lot of that depends on the state.



You guys were allowed on the Reservation only because the Tribe said you could come on the Reservation.
More then a few Tribes have banned State/County/City Law Enforcement from their Reservations. Usually because of stupidity on one or both sides in the past.
Most of the tribes here in California have no problems with the local sheriff coming on to their Reservation.
Don't even think of it on the Navajo Reservation in Arizona.


I was on a mission a bunch of years ago, on reservation land, and nobody seemed to care that we were there. The crash was initially located by aircraft, and the ground team went in to look for survivors (single occupant, no survivor) and assist the sheriff's helicopter.

NTSB report - LAX02FA049
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PHall

The tribes in Socal don't have a problem with us coming on their Reservations.
The Soboba Tribe wouldn't let Riv Co Sheriff on the Reservation for awhile but their problems were solved when a new sheriff was elected.

SarDragon

Quote from: PHall on November 06, 2019, 12:21:37 am
The tribes in Socal don't have a problem with us coming on their Reservations.
The Soboba Tribe wouldn't let Riv Co Sheriff on the Reservation for awhile but their problems were solved when a new sheriff was elected.


Interesting. That's exactly where this was, in Dec 2001.
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C/WO, CAP, Ret

Flying Pig

I was a Deputy with Riverside Sheriff.   ;D  Ive had many a pursuit across their reservation. 

Eclipse

Quote from: Eclipse on November 05, 2019, 09:45:25 pm
Why is this a question?


Still no response.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to impose the administrative hassle and burdens,
not to mention potential lack of activities and missions being a pseudo-overseas unit, or
even a direct-to-NHQ unit would bring with it.

This makes no sense.



Fester

Quote from: Eclipse on November 06, 2019, 06:03:32 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on November 05, 2019, 09:45:25 pm
Why is this a question?


Still no response.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to impose the administrative hassle and burdens,
not to mention potential lack of activities and missions being a pseudo-overseas unit, or
even a direct-to-NHQ unit would bring with it.

This makes no sense.


I posited this question back on Oct 30.  Methinks we aren't going to get an answer.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

NIN

I think that this one has been discussed to the maximum extent needed.   These aren't the droids OP was looking for.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.