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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,928

« on: October 28, 2019, 04:15:20 PM »

I feel the need to re-post this after talking with more senior members who cannot seem to understand the concept of "grade eligibility requirements."

CAPR 60-1:
4.1.1. Design Considerations. There is no standard organizational structure for a cadet staff. Each unit
will design a staff structure that is appropriate for its mix of cadets, consistent with the broad principles
set forth in CAPP 60-31. Cadets must meet the grade eligibility requirements shown in Table 4.1 below to
serve in cadet staff positions. To afford units flexibility, minimum grades for some positions are set lower
than their doctrinally pure levels (e.g., flight commander is an officer position by doctrine, but a C/MSgt
may be assigned.)





No, your Cadet Master Sergeant isn't your Cadet Commander.
No, your Cadet Staff Sergeant isn't your First Sergeant.
No, your Cadet Senior Airman isn't your Flight Sergeant.

You do a disservice to your cadets when you place inexperienced persons to fill duty positions just because you don't have anyone else.

For those cadets who do meet the minimum grades: just because you may doesn't mean you should.

This suggests to me that cadet duties aren't being assigned in eServices, or that seniors are knowingly disregarding CAP regulations because you think you're smarter than the compliance standards.

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time With Silver Clasp
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Posts: 30,387

« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2019, 04:26:35 PM »

This suggests to me that cadet duties aren't being assigned in eServices, or that seniors are knowingly disregarding CAP regulations because you think you're smarter than the compliance standards.

Sadly it's clearly both.

To those saying "What's the big deal?" It means the cadets don't and can't get credit for the service, and when they list it
on a resume it calls into question the unit's program and competency of the adult leadership, and in turn their
(i.e. if the reviewer is paying attention, it works against the cadet).

Worse, though, is that it robs the respective cadets of the experience(s) they need and deserve for later CAP success,
and sets the tone that expediency is more important then integrity.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,343
Unit: GA-090

« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2019, 06:09:47 PM »


Good post.

Add CAC rep to that list. I initially caught heck as a DCP years ago for politely sending back the A1C "representatives" offered up by a few units (but it caught on). CAC is a Phase 3 (cadet officer) activity intended to foster indirect leadership, and junior cadets need to be working on their direct leadership skill sets.

CAC appointment is also an eServices action, and is often omitted by new or uninformed commanders and deputies.

R/s
Spam


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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2019, 06:17:03 PM »

This is the kind of stuff that should be taught in SLS, UCC, etc., vs "How to write a letter to an airport requesting hangar space."

I think it's touched on in TLC, but clearly it's not universally known, let alone abided.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2019, 06:39:07 PM »

This is the kind of stuff that should be taught in SLS, UCC, etc., vs "How to write a letter to an airport requesting hangar space."

I think it's touched on in TLC, but clearly it's not universally known, let alone abided.

Kind of like how it's a great idea to appoint your newest senior member to be your Admin, Personnel, or Supply Officer because it's "easy, busy work"....
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2019, 06:43:15 PM »

Perhaps we need a Unit Sustainability Course that covers topics like this?
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2019, 06:43:50 PM »


Add CAC rep to that list.
CAC is a Phase 3 (cadet officer) activity intended to foster indirect leadership, and junior cadets need to be working on their direct leadership skill sets.

C/SSgt and above for Group or Wing.
C/2d Lt and above for Region.
Phase IV or Spaatz for National.
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Spam
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Unit: GA-090

« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2019, 07:43:25 PM »


Add CAC rep to that list.
CAC is a Phase 3 (cadet officer) activity intended to foster indirect leadership, and junior cadets need to be working on their direct leadership skill sets.

C/SSgt and above for Group or Wing.
C/2d Lt and above for Region.
Phase IV or Spaatz for National.

CAPR 60-1 1 FEBRUARY 2018
"7.2.1.3. Composite and cadet squadron commanders appoint two cadet NCOs or officers. If the unit does not have qualified cadets available, the position(s) may remain vacant".

CAPP 52-19 CAC Guide October 2003
[Note: this pub hasn't yet been updated to match R60-1, 7.2.1.3, but the logic therein still applies in terms of selecting qualified cadets]

"PREFACE
Further, by emphasizing the CACís need to be responsive to their echelon
commander, the guide encourages them to follow the example of a
similar advisory body, U.S. Air Force Company Grade Officer Councils".

and

"UNIT COMMANDERS
Unit commanders select qualified cadet officers for CAC service.
An appointment to the council may be used to reward outstanding
cadet officers. It recognizes they have progressed as leaders
and are capable of applying their indirect leadership skills to the
challenges encountered at a higher echelon.
Ö
Why is important to appoint a cadet officer as a CAC
representative, versus a Phase I or II cadet? Having completed a
curriculum emphasizing followership and small group leadership,
cadet officers are ready to lead indirectly and tackle problems that
are long-term in nature. Their length of CAP service also enables
them to view cadet-related issues against that experience; CAP is
not still new to them".


Suggested best practice:
In September every year, our DCP sends out an all-Commanders list email encouraging them to appoint new reps, and his email includes a step-by-step tutorial for new unit CCs, to help them through the process. It has noticeably raised the percentage of units participating.


R/s
Spam


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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2019, 07:54:45 PM »

Manual interfacing strikes again!
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Spam
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Unit: GA-090

« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2019, 08:03:34 PM »

Well, as I said, I think you've got a good topic here, worth addressing.


My boss (recent boss, when I was a Wing Vice Lord up until a month ago) took a best practice up to command council which was a consolidated annual suspense list. I think we could do one better, and assemble a "EZ Appointments How To" flow chart.


You said, "cadet duties aren't being assigned in eServices, or that seniors are knowingly disregarding CAP regulations". The third possibility of course is sheer ignorance. Some new commanders and deputies have no idea that members should/must be appointed in like five different modules in eServices, or how to do so.


So, perhaps taking these topics and making a simple CAPVA might be helpful. Show a flow for duty assignments. Show a flow for CAC appointments. Show committees. For each, footnote with the reference CAPR paras. Then, include that Visual Aid in the stack of slides for Unit Commanders Course, and SLS/CLC, and mark it down for an annual review/update, since eServices is not a static system.


R/s
Spam



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UWONGO2
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Posts: 108

« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2019, 08:56:53 PM »

I think it's touched on in TLC, but clearly it's not universally known, let alone abided.

There is a whole section in 2.2 Service Learning, including an exercise to build an org chart based upon the available cadets, covered in the TLC-Basic course. Even after the discussion, then watching others reveal their org charts, I've still had senior members start off with, "well the SrA will be the commander since she's the highest ranking cadet we have." The first time this happened I thought I was being punked, but for whatever reason this is a difficult concept for some seniors to grasp.

The TLC Basic and Intermediate courses are great courses, the NHQ/CP folks did a great job putting them together.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2019, 02:10:14 PM »

I think it's touched on in TLC, but clearly it's not universally known, let alone abided.

There is a whole section in 2.2 Service Learning, including an exercise to build an org chart based upon the available cadets, covered in the TLC-Basic course. Even after the discussion, then watching others reveal their org charts, I've still had senior members start off with, "well the SrA will be the commander since she's the highest ranking cadet we have." The first time this happened I thought I was being punked, but for whatever reason this is a difficult concept for some seniors to grasp.

The TLC Basic and Intermediate courses are great courses, the NHQ/CP folks did a great job putting them together.

Yuuuuup....

Some of it can also play into the fact that many senior members, including those who directly oversee cadet programs, haven't read the Cadet Staff Handbook nor do they really understand the roles of the cadet staffs. So when you say "If you don't have a Cadet Commander, your Deputy Commander for Cadets assumes that role," they don't really know what it means; so they appoint a cadet commander.

I once had a senior tell me they're fine with a C/MSgt serving as their cadet commander. I asked, "So what they do they next? What happens after they become C/2d Lt?" They said, "Well, they'd stay on as the cadet commander." "For how long?" "At least a year or so." "Okay, then what do they do? What do they do once that year is up and they're a C/Capt now? Are they still the cadet commander?" "Well, they're the highest ranking cadet." This is how you end up with a cadet commander for three years, and the cadet either has an ego through the roof or is bored out of their mind.
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GaryVC
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Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2019, 04:28:18 PM »

Cadets becoming inactive after being cadet commander is a problem. In a perfect world they would become a senior member but none of ours have been old enough except the most recent one. There are many things former cadet commanders can do but most don't seem to be aware of the many options available. Some have gone away to college and let their membership lapse. Others just became inactive and eventually let their membership lapse.

I am pleased that the most recent former cadet commander is still active. He was serving as a simulator instructor (he has his PPL) at our most recent meeting and we have been finding other activities especially at events that involve more than one squadron.   
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2019, 05:43:17 PM »

Cadets becoming inactive after being cadet commander is a problem. In a perfect world they would become a senior member

I disagree.

In a perfect world, they'd have a little bit of humility and not have an issue with stepping aside to let someone else into the role, or respecting that their time is up and there may not be a replacement right away.


Quote
There are many things former cadet commanders can do but most don't seem to be aware of the many options available.

That's a job of senior members. Expose your cadets to those opportunities.


Quote
Others just became inactive and eventually let their membership lapse.

That's because they're:

a.) Bored
b.) Feel entitled

Both of those need to be addressed before they become problematic.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2019, 06:00:45 PM »

In this day and age, I can't imagine a properly-scaled former C/CC who doesn't know about all the opportunities
available to experienced cadets looking for new challenges.

By the time a cadet is into late Phase III and Phase IV, they should have a couple of encampments and / or NCSAs under their belt,
and be prepared to help other units, work at the Group level, staff encampments and NCSAs, and generally take advantage
of Executive-level cadet opportunities.

And they should be able to be away from the unit for periods of time without thinking the place is going to collapse without
them, whether that is (preferably) because there are other capable cadets to step up, or the Senior Members are doing their
jobs in filling in the gaps until cadets are ready.
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Spam
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Unit: GA-090

« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2019, 07:16:13 PM »

In this day and age, I can't imagine a properly-scaled former C/CC who doesn't know about all the opportunities
available to experienced cadets looking for new challenges.

By the time a cadet is into late Phase III and Phase IV, Ö


I completely agree, but that circles back to the original question of minimum grades. So many unit commanders/deputies pick the easy way out by designating someone too junior/inexperienced as cadet commander. One local unit I know was known for having the same C/SSGT as their "Cadet Commander" for four years. Obviously no impetus for him to promote (he was retired in place at an early age) and no spur for advancement of any of his junior cadets, who mostly all stalled out as airmen. That unit hasn't had a Mitchell in 20 years because of such attitudes.

Unit CCs/CDCs have to have the process discipline to not negligently appoint "the oldest" or "the highest ranking" cadet as a cadet commander, or cadet flight commander, but rather to adhere to the program of record. Sometimes that means leaving a former cadet commander cadet officer appointed to staff functions while the CDC steps into the cadet commander roles, with the top cadet being a cadet flight commander (or NCO). Having the former C/CC just handle it all leads to the same stagnation effect... it just sends the message that there is no room for cadets to advance and take over.

Side issue:  years ago as WG/DCP, I challenged the CAC to produce a one page USAF style position paper on duties for former cadet commanders to serve as a resource for units (keep them motivated, support their continued advance, and keep their corporate memory as an aid to their replacement without stifling him/her). That, to my mind, is the sort of cooperative indirect leadership project appropriate to CAC (it even exercised their Tongue and Quill writing skill sets, lol), and their product continues to be used by some of the local units here.  If anyone is interested, I can see if I can dig it up...

V/r
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baronet68
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Unit: PCR-WA-001

McChord.org
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2019, 08:33:01 PM »

  If anyone is interested, I can see if I can dig it up...

Please do!
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Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
Secret Wing Staff Dude, WAWG
Spam
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Unit: GA-090

« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2019, 03:28:30 AM »

  If anyone is interested, I can see if I can dig it up...

Please do!

PM sent.
- Spam
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Fester
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« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2019, 05:37:35 AM »

SPAM, I'd like to see it also if you don't mind.
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1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996
RangerConlin
Recruit

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Unit: GLR-MI-214

« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2019, 07:29:30 PM »

Same here.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Staff Structure / Minimum Grades
 


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