Award of GTM/L badges for completion of NESA or HMRS?

Started by Eclipse, October 27, 2019, 03:01:55 pm

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Eclipse

Previous versions of CAPR 35-6 allowed for the issuance of the GTM/L badges for Completion of NESA GSAR or equivelent...


CAPR 35-6(E), July 1999 Page 2:


The result being more then a few members, mostly cadets, wearing a GT badge who were not
actually GTMs becuase they had a couple of tasks missing, hadn't completed First Aid training
or were under 18 but still allowed to wear the GTL badge after the respective NCSA.

However that provision was removed in (at least) the most recent version...

CAPR 35-6, January 2015 Page 3:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R035_006_70213217D50CA.pdf



So I'm just confirming my understanding of the following:

1 - The only method for earning the respective badges is full, standard, completion and approval of the respective SQTRs.
(Regardless of where they are completed, NESA, HMRS, home unit, etc.)

2 - Cadets under 18 have no avenue to earning the Senior (GTL) badge until their birthday.
(And should not be allowed to participate in GTL training as the Prerequisite is clear.)

Is there any other conflicting regulation that allows for otherwise?



jeders

Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2019, 03:01:55 pm
2 - Cadets under 18 have no avenue to earning the Senior (GTL) badge until their birthday.
(And should not be allowed to participate in GTL training as the Prerequisite is clear.)


Yes they do, by earning GTM 1 as you quoted.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse




Fester

Quote from: jeders on October 27, 2019, 03:38:37 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2019, 03:01:55 pm
2 - Cadets under 18 have no avenue to earning the Senior (GTL) badge until their birthday.
(And should not be allowed to participate in GTL training as the Prerequisite is clear.)


Yes they do, by earning GTM 1 as you quoted.


Where in regs does it say cadets under 18 should not be allowed to participate in GTL training?
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

SarDragon

Quote from: Fester on October 28, 2019, 04:31:28 am
Quote from: jeders on October 27, 2019, 03:38:37 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2019, 03:01:55 pm
2 - Cadets under 18 have no avenue to earning the Senior (GTL) badge until their birthday.
(And should not be allowed to participate in GTL training as the Prerequisite is clear.)


Yes they do, by earning GTM 1 as you quoted.


Where in regs does it say cadets under 18 should not be allowed to participate in GTL training?


From the GTL SQTR:

Ground Team Leader - Prerequisites
GES - General Emergency Services
GTM3 - Ground Team Member Level 3
Age Eligibility: 18 years
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

THRAWN

Quote from: SarDragon on October 28, 2019, 08:10:20 am
Quote from: Fester on October 28, 2019, 04:31:28 am
Quote from: jeders on October 27, 2019, 03:38:37 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2019, 03:01:55 pm
2 - Cadets under 18 have no avenue to earning the Senior (GTL) badge until their birthday.
(And should not be allowed to participate in GTL training as the Prerequisite is clear.)


Yes they do, by earning GTM 1 as you quoted.


Where in regs does it say cadets under 18 should not be allowed to participate in GTL training?


From the GTL SQTR:

Ground Team Leader - Prerequisites
GES - General Emergency Services
GTM3 - Ground Team Member Level 3
Age Eligibility: 18 years


But that isn't a reg.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

arajca

Quote from: THRAWN on October 28, 2019, 04:36:04 pm
Quote from: SarDragon on October 28, 2019, 08:10:20 am
Quote from: Fester on October 28, 2019, 04:31:28 am
Quote from: jeders on October 27, 2019, 03:38:37 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2019, 03:01:55 pm
2 - Cadets under 18 have no avenue to earning the Senior (GTL) badge until their birthday.
(And should not be allowed to participate in GTL training as the Prerequisite is clear.)


Yes they do, by earning GTM 1 as you quoted.


Where in regs does it say cadets under 18 should not be allowed to participate in GTL training?


From the GTL SQTR:

Ground Team Leader - Prerequisites
GES - General Emergency Services
GTM3 - Ground Team Member Level 3
Age Eligibility: 18 years


But that isn't a reg.

However, the reg, 60-3, refers to the SQTR requirements. In particular, Para 2-3 a.
Quote from: CAPR 60-3, Sect 2-3, Para a.2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards. For each specialty rating,
SQTRs have been developed to train and qualify members in stages. The most current versions
of the task guides for all specialties are found on the NHQ CAP/DOS website.

a. First, prerequisites must be completed prior to initiating training requirements.

Spam


There's no reason why reasonably mature cadets who, having completed GTL1 (as far as they can get, under 18), and having shown an interest in team leadership, cannot be given an assistant GTL designation informally and used to help manage a team.

If they take a look at the GTL SQTR on line with their GTL1 valid, they should note that a good number of the tasks for GTL will be green/current, even though they are not yet eligible in the system for the commander to enter an age 18 prerequisite. So, de facto they've already completed some training for GTL, if that's the case, in spite of R60-3, 2-3a.

V/r
Spam



Toad1168

I would think the restriction has more to do with liability and legal reasons than anything else.
Toad

Eclipse

Quote from: Toad1168 on October 28, 2019, 07:01:04 pm
I would think the restriction has more to do with liability and legal reasons than anything else.


Ditto (see what I did there?).

I would think it would be hard to justify if something went sideways.



Spam


I think we're on the same page, yes.... copy that.

I believe the GT basic, senior, and master badges are the only correct terms, and not "GTM/L badges". I can't remember positively (I was grandfathered in, when the badges were first authorized in the 90s) but I believe they were originally authorized as basic for GTM, senior for GTL, and master for GBD, and that was before there was such a thing as GTM3/2/1. The NESA exception came in the update you first mentioned, which threw some of us at first but makes sense in retrospect, when linked to GTM1 (regardless of age).

V/r
Spam


Eclipse

I'd just as soon as it went back to the way it was, without the sub-quals that confuse what
people can do from a training and regulation perspective, but are essentially ignored by people anyway.



Spam


husker

Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2019, 03:01:55 pm
Previous versions of CAPR 35-6 allowed for the issuance of the GTM/L badges for Completion of NESA GSAR or equivelent...


The result being more then a few members, mostly cadets, wearing a GT badge who were not
actually GTMs becuase they had a couple of tasks missing, hadn't completed First Aid training
or were under 18 but still allowed to wear the GTL badge after the respective NCSA.



FWIW, at NESA we don't hand out the badge to anyone that didn't actually graduate - which equals meeting all criteria in the SQTR.  One of the common issues I run into is our non grads (tasks, or those who didn't come to the activity with the prereqs), will go out and get their own badges and sew on.  I just don't have a good way of policing that.
Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov

Luis R. Ramos

Spam,

I do not see why there should be talk of an "Asst GTL" position for those under 18 years. Given a smattering of GTM1, GTL2, and GTM3, automatically any GTL can say "you are in charge of them if there is a problem when we go out" to a GTM1 while the GTL will still retain overall responsibility and leadership. No GTM1? Then to whomever is higher: GTM2 if there are GTM3 as well.

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Spam

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 29, 2019, 12:05:13 am
Spam,

I do not see why there should be talk of an "Asst GTL" position for those under 18 years. Given a smattering of GTM1, GTL2, and GTM3, automatically any GTL can say "you are in charge of them if there is a problem when we go out" to a GTM1 while the GTL will still retain overall responsibility and leadership. No GTM1? Then to whomever is higher: GTM2 if there are GTM3 as well.


I don't think we are disagreeing here, sir. Its an operational assignment, not a SQTR or 101 designation.

V/r
Spam

Fester

I do not agree that cadets under 18 can't train for GTL.  The SQTR system is NOT set up that way.  I am aware of countless cadets that have approved and active tasks on the GTL SQTR for numerous items that are Advanced Training Tasks where the CC Approval for Prerequisites is grey AND the cadet is under 18. 
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

CAP9907

Quote from: Fester on October 29, 2019, 06:14:32 am
I do not agree that cadets under 18 can't train for GTL.  The SQTR system is NOT set up that way.  I am aware of countless cadets that have approved and active tasks on the GTL SQTR for numerous items that are Advanced Training Tasks where the CC Approval for Prerequisites is grey AND the cadet is under 18.


Well, it's not really for you to agree or not, those are the prerequisites as stated on the SQTR: those tasks need to be met in order to further train in the OPS Qual of GTL..  It is about compliance with the program as currently structured. Take it up with NHQ if you feel so strongly about it.


~9907
21 yrs of service

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Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
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arajca

Quote from: Fester on October 29, 2019, 06:14:32 am
I do not agree that cadets under 18 can't train for GTL.  The SQTR system is NOT set up that way.  I am aware of countless cadets that have approved and active tasks on the GTL SQTR for numerous items that are Advanced Training Tasks where the CC Approval for Prerequisites is grey AND the cadet is under 18.

It's not that the cadets are training for GTL, it's that some tasks cross-pollinate to various SQTRs. A cadet training for UDF also has some tasks completed for GTM2 and GTL, but they are NOT trainees for those quals.

jeders

Quote from: Fester on October 29, 2019, 06:14:32 am
I do not agree that cadets under 18 can't train for GTL.  The SQTR system is NOT set up that way.


That's actually exactly the way that the SQTR system is set up. You cannot be a trainee for a task until all of the Fam/Prep is completed; you cannot complete Fam/Prep until the prerequisites are completed. Therefore, you cannot be a trainee for GTL until you are 18. To state otherwise is, at this point, willful disregard of the regulations and program design.

QuoteI am aware of countless cadets that have approved and active tasks on the GTL SQTR for numerous items that are Advanced Training Tasks where the CC Approval for Prerequisites is grey AND the cadet is under 18.


As arajca already stated, these tasks are not being completed by GTL trainees but rather are cross-populating from other specialties such as UDF, GTM, MRO, etc. Having these tasks already completed will put the individual ahead of the curve if/when they decide to start GTL training, but it does not make them a GTL trainee.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Luis R. Ramos

All is dandy and good, but how do you deal with the following task?

Inspecting a vehicle, required for both a GTL and UDF spec.

When cadets w/o CAP drivers license, how do you...

...have them check the back up alarm?

...check steering?

...check braking?

All those involve getting in the van, starting it up, and moving it? 
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

jeders

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 29, 2019, 02:01:36 pm
All is dandy and good, but how do you deal with the following task?

Inspecting a vehicle, required for both a GTL and UDF spec.

When cadets w/o CAP drivers license, how do you...

...have them check the back up alarm?

...check steering?

...check braking?

All those involve getting in the van, starting it up, and moving it?


Or have them act as observers outside the vehicle while a CAP licensed driver is at the controls.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Quote from: jeders on October 29, 2019, 02:05:20 pm
Or have them act as observers outside the vehicle while a CAP licensed driver is at the controls.


+1 Give the cadet the checklist and have them call out the items while someone with a CAPDL does the physical checks.



Luis R. Ramos

Having them as observers or calling the items in  a list is how I do it, but it seems to me it is not a complete task if they are not driving. But thanks for the answers.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

husker

The relevant regulation requiring prerequisites (including age) to be completed first:

From CAPR 60-3

2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards. For each specialty rating,
SQTRs have been developed to train and qualify members in stages. The most current versions
of the task guides for all specialties are found on the NHQ CAP/DOS website.

a. First, prerequisites must be completed prior to initiating training requirements.
Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: jeders on October 29, 2019, 01:46:19 pm
Quote from: Fester on October 29, 2019, 06:14:32 am
I do not agree that cadets under 18 can't train for GTL.  The SQTR system is NOT set up that way.


That's actually exactly the way that the SQTR system is set up. You cannot be a trainee for a task until all of the Fam/Prep is completed; you cannot complete Fam/Prep until the prerequisites are completed. Therefore, you cannot be a trainee for GTL until you are 18. To state otherwise is, at this point, willful disregard of the regulations and program design.


I think everyone is agreeing vehemently here - except for the definition of 'train for'.

Cadets under 18 can obviously 'make progress towards' GTL, since there are many tasks which can be signed off on other SQTRs without the 'be 18' prerequisite. For example, O-0104 (Setup shelter) is a GTM2 advanced training task that is also a GTL advanced training task.

Equally obviously, they cannot be in supervised trainee status on their CAPF 101 nor be assigned as a trainee GTL on a mission.

Personally, I think confusion is reduced if we restrict "train for" to mean "be qualified as a supervised trainee for"; otherwise we end up saying C/Amn Snuffy is training for IC1 when taking Aircraft Ground Handling (it's an advanced training task).

Gunsotsu

This entire discussion to this point is moot as it is. eServices won't allow you to authorize training specifically for GTL for anyone under 18 anyway. Stop overthinking it.