Cadet Programs Regulations updates - Eff Nov 2019

Started by Eclipse, October 24, 2019, 07:58:40 pm

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TheSkyHornet

It would be extremely helpful if there was a notification that went out to say "New Cadet Programs Regulations updates - Eff Nov 2019 - Check the web page (link) to review"

I try to review program changes with my team before they go into effect in case we need to do some form of internal differences training or shift fire on our activity outline.

Jim Lahaie

Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2019, 02:48:42 pm
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 25, 2019, 02:59:07 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 24, 2019, 08:12:44 pm
Cadet Protection update I am glad to see:
60-2:
2.2.2. Grog Bowls. Activities that include cadets will not feature a "grog" bowl or require individuals to
consume unpalatable items.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

There's the CAP for you, sucking the fun out of many activities because one person screwed up and filed a complaint/lawsuit, just like the recent ban on vehicle parking. The ban on unpalatable items? Yeah, fair. But eliminating grog bowls PERIOD? That's like banning punch from a school dance because someone slipped in it. CAP, please don't punish all of us for a cadet/senior member's mistake.

It's not being banned because of "one person" or "a cadet/senior member's mistake". It is the way in which grog bowls have used at a lot of CAP activities to humiliate members. Having seen what goes into some of these, and the various items used as grog bowls, it is not an 'innocent' thing. Not to mention the bragging about how disgusting the grog bowl contents are by those who put them together.

A lot of them I've seen could easily put someone with diabetes into an emergency condition.

Note that I also said 'The ban on unpalatable items? Yeah, fair'. Grog bowls that are used with palatable items (such as brown sugar representing the sand in your boots) don't seem very threatening to me. Once again, one person messed up and ruined it for the rest.  :-\.
Jim Lahaie
Cadet Senior Master Sergeant, CAP
Recruiting & Retention NCO
Cadet First Sergeant
"Because this is CAP Talk and that's what people like to do here."

PHall

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 25, 2019, 05:14:49 pm
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2019, 02:48:42 pm
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 25, 2019, 02:59:07 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 24, 2019, 08:12:44 pm
Cadet Protection update I am glad to see:
60-2:
2.2.2. Grog Bowls. Activities that include cadets will not feature a "grog" bowl or require individuals to
consume unpalatable items.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

There's the CAP for you, sucking the fun out of many activities because one person screwed up and filed a complaint/lawsuit, just like the recent ban on vehicle parking. The ban on unpalatable items? Yeah, fair. But eliminating grog bowls PERIOD? That's like banning punch from a school dance because someone slipped in it. CAP, please don't punish all of us for a cadet/senior member's mistake.

It's not being banned because of "one person" or "a cadet/senior member's mistake". It is the way in which grog bowls have used at a lot of CAP activities to humiliate members. Having seen what goes into some of these, and the various items used as grog bowls, it is not an 'innocent' thing. Not to mention the bragging about how disgusting the grog bowl contents are by those who put them together.

A lot of them I've seen could easily put someone with diabetes into an emergency condition.

Note that I also said 'The ban on unpalatable items? Yeah, fair'. Grog bowls that are used with palatable items (such as brown sugar representing the sand in your boots) don't seem very threatening to me. Once again, one person messed up and ruined it for the rest.  :-\.


Yeah, that big sugar hit from the Brown Sugar might be enough to spell trouble for a Type 1 Diabetic. Especially if they didn't know it was there in the first place.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 25, 2019, 05:14:49 pm
Quote from: arajca on October 25, 2019, 02:48:42 pm
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 25, 2019, 02:59:07 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 24, 2019, 08:12:44 pm
Cadet Protection update I am glad to see:
60-2:
2.2.2. Grog Bowls. Activities that include cadets will not feature a "grog" bowl or require individuals to
consume unpalatable items.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

There's the CAP for you, sucking the fun out of many activities because one person screwed up and filed a complaint/lawsuit, just like the recent ban on vehicle parking. The ban on unpalatable items? Yeah, fair. But eliminating grog bowls PERIOD? That's like banning punch from a school dance because someone slipped in it. CAP, please don't punish all of us for a cadet/senior member's mistake.

It's not being banned because of "one person" or "a cadet/senior member's mistake". It is the way in which grog bowls have used at a lot of CAP activities to humiliate members. Having seen what goes into some of these, and the various items used as grog bowls, it is not an 'innocent' thing. Not to mention the bragging about how disgusting the grog bowl contents are by those who put them together.

A lot of them I've seen could easily put someone with diabetes into an emergency condition.

Note that I also said 'The ban on unpalatable items? Yeah, fair'. Grog bowls that are used with palatable items (such as brown sugar representing the sand in your boots) don't seem very threatening to me. Once again, one person messed up and ruined it for the rest.  :-\ .



A lot of people have spent more time in CAP than you've been alive for, and I bet you would be hard pressed to find one who states Grog bowls are what CAP is all about.

Eclipse

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 25, 2019, 05:14:49 pm
Note that I also said 'The ban on unpalatable items? Yeah, fair'. Grog bowls that are used with palatable items (such as brown sugar representing the sand in your boots) don't seem very threatening to me. Once again, one person messed up and ruined it for the rest.  :-\.


The fact that you believe this is a punitive response to an inappropriate execution of a grog somewhere(s), vs. the grog concept itself being
inappropriate in CAP,  is an indication you should probably review the stated goals and mission of the cadet program,
not to mention the Cadet Protection Policy.

In the spirit of growth, which part of it do you believe enhances the cadet experience?

Perhaps this would be a good CDI session.



Ned

As you all will recall, we are about three or so years into our "publications re-engineering" effort, now nearly complete.

As part of that process CAPR 1-2 was enacted, which prescribes the comprehensive process used to draft and/or revise regulations.  The current process involves a number of steps designed to ensure that the proposed regulation is in accord with CAP policy, necessary, and sufficient.


Having been personally involved in the process as a CP guy, I can tell you that the process is exhaustive, and includes review and comments by multiple staff sections at NHQ, as well as volunteer leaders and staffers in the regions and wings.  Sometimes multiple rounds of review and comments before the reg is issued over Gen Smith's signature.

In the past, the process included posting regulations for public comment.  CP routinely placed draft regulations on the website and carefully considered the comments made by anyone who chose to comment.  However, the current process does not include posting drafts for public comment.

If you believe that posting draft regs for comment by the general membership would improve the process and result in better-crafted regulations, you should let your wing and region commanders know.  Like any other regulation the 1-2 is subject to periodic revision, and a public comment period could be included going forward.

Ned Lee
National CP Manager

Brit_in_CAP

Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 24, 2019, 11:03:06 pm
Quote from: Kayll'b on October 24, 2019, 10:53:04 pm
To clairify, grog is still allowed as long as there are no cadets present?

interesting.


As a senior member, if there was a non-cadet activity that included one I wouldn't bother showing up.

Likewise, for what my opinion is' worth.

Paul Creed III

Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on October 28, 2019, 12:25:15 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 24, 2019, 11:03:06 pm
Quote from: Kayll'b on October 24, 2019, 10:53:04 pm
To clairify, grog is still allowed as long as there are no cadets present?

interesting.


As a senior member, if there was a non-cadet activity that included one I wouldn't bother showing up.

Likewise, for what my opinion is' worth.


+1

I don't need to be drinking out of toilets or trash cans and neither do cadets. Serves zero useful purpose which is why I banned them in my AOR when I was a group commander.
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
National Headquarters Cyber Curriculum Specialist
National Headquarters Photography Working Group

baronet68

Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 24, 2019, 08:12:44 pm
Cadet Protection update I am glad to see:
60-2:
2.2.2. Grog Bowls. Activities that include cadets will not feature a "grog" bowl or require individuals to
consume unpalatable items.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Anyone who thinks CAP has made some kind of grievous error banning grog bowls, ask yourself this...

"Which CAP Core Value is being demonstrated by having a grog bowl at a CAP activity?"


  • Integrity - Demonstrating honesty, strong moral principles, and moral uprightness

  • Volunteer Service - Providing services for no financial or social gain to benefit others

  • Excellence - Demonstrating the quality of being outstanding or extremely good

  • Respect - Recognizing and appreciating the inherent dignity and worth of all people



If someone can fit a grog bowl into one of these Core Values, I'd be interested in hearing the rationalization behind it.

Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
Secret Wing Staff Dude, WAWG

Jim Lahaie

Quote from: baronet68 on October 29, 2019, 04:57:11 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 24, 2019, 08:12:44 pm
Cadet Protection update I am glad to see:
60-2:
2.2.2. Grog Bowls. Activities that include cadets will not feature a "grog" bowl or require individuals to
consume unpalatable items.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Anyone who thinks CAP has made some kind of grievous error banning grog bowls, ask yourself this...

"Which CAP Core Value is being demonstrated by having a grog bowl at a CAP activity?"


  • Integrity - Demonstrating honesty, strong moral principles, and moral uprightness

  • Volunteer Service - Providing services for no financial or social gain to benefit others

  • Excellence - Demonstrating the quality of being outstanding or extremely good

  • Respect - Recognizing and appreciating the inherent dignity and worth of all people



If someone can fit a grog bowl into one of these Core Values, I'd be interested in hearing the rationalization behind it.

The exact same can be said about testing military bearing, or the use of a command voice in Basic Encampment by cadre.

Sure, there are some downsides to them, but in the right circumstances can be harmless, and sometimes fun. Although your point is valid in some respects, sir, the entire argument itself is overused and getting quite repetitive on this forum.

Perhaps you should ask some infantry grunts in Afghanistan how incorrectly wearing their uniforms for comfort and writing things on their kevlar covers 'is conductive to the core values'. You'd get an interesting response  >:D
Jim Lahaie
Cadet Senior Master Sergeant, CAP
Recruiting & Retention NCO
Cadet First Sergeant
"Because this is CAP Talk and that's what people like to do here."

Eclipse

October 29, 2019, 07:45:42 pm #30 Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 07:53:27 pm by Eclipse
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 29, 2019, 07:32:33 pm
The exact same can be said about testing military bearing,

Testing the what now?   Can you cite that from the program, I don't recall seeing that.

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 29, 2019, 07:32:33 pm
or the use of a command voice in Basic Encampment by cadre.

There is a significant difference between "command voice", which is a tone, bearing, and attitude a lot more then volume,
and the yelling many new cadets leaders do in emulation of movies.

The line is bright on purpose, to emphasis the kinds of leadership techniques that are actually useful to
cadets, and to dissuade the bullying and hazing which lie right on the edge of the FMJ.

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 29, 2019, 07:32:33 pm
Sure, there are some downsides to them, but in the right circumstances can be harmless, and sometimes fun. Although your point is valid in some respects, sir, the entire argument itself is overused and getting quite repetitive on this forum.


And how would you know what the "right circumstances" are?

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 29, 2019, 07:32:33 pm
Perhaps you should ask some infantry grunts in Afghanistan how incorrectly wearing their uniforms for comfort and writing things on their kevlar covers 'is conductive to the core values'. You'd get an interesting response  >:D


Nothing in that sentence has anything to do, even a little, with CAP, or the goals and mission of the CP. It does, however
make the argument, since despite clear, reasonable guidelines, there are always members who "know better" and will
seek to either continue pushing back against the rules, or just "fudge things a little, because "it's for their own good".

Further to this, while an experienced RDC, TI or DI may well know exactly where the line is, and how far an individual
can be pushed before harm is done (since they have been there themselves, then had field experience, then had direct training,
and further had both superior and peer review on training techniques), CAP members decidedly do not, especially cadets.



abdsp51

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 29, 2019, 07:32:33 pm
Quote from: baronet68 on October 29, 2019, 04:57:11 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on October 24, 2019, 08:12:44 pm
Cadet Protection update I am glad to see:
60-2:
2.2.2. Grog Bowls. Activities that include cadets will not feature a "grog" bowl or require individuals to
consume unpalatable items.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Anyone who thinks CAP has made some kind of grievous error banning grog bowls, ask yourself this...

"Which CAP Core Value is being demonstrated by having a grog bowl at a CAP activity?"


  • Integrity - Demonstrating honesty, strong moral principles, and moral uprightness

  • Volunteer Service - Providing services for no financial or social gain to benefit others

  • Excellence - Demonstrating the quality of being outstanding or extremely good

  • Respect - Recognizing and appreciating the inherent dignity and worth of all people



If someone can fit a grog bowl into one of these Core Values, I'd be interested in hearing the rationalization behind it.

The exact same can be said about testing military bearing, or the use of a command voice in Basic Encampment by cadre.

Sure, there are some downsides to them, but in the right circumstances can be harmless, and sometimes fun. Although your point is valid in some respects, sir, the entire argument itself is overused and getting quite repetitive on this forum.

Perhaps you should ask some infantry grunts in Afghanistan how incorrectly wearing their uniforms for comfort and writing things on their kevlar covers 'is conductive to the core values'. You'd get an interesting response  >:D


Skating on thin ice there.  Are you versed in AR670-1 one?  Comparing a grog bowl with how a combat unit conducts business is a strawman argument.   

Jester

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 29, 2019, 07:32:33 pm

The exact same can be said about testing military bearing, or the use of a command voice in Basic Encampment by cadre.

Sure, there are some downsides to them, but in the right circumstances can be harmless, and sometimes fun. Although your point is valid in some respects, sir, the entire argument itself is overused and getting quite repetitive on this forum.

Perhaps you should ask some infantry grunts in Afghanistan how incorrectly wearing their uniforms for comfort and writing things on their kevlar covers 'is conductive to the core values'. You'd get an interesting response  >:D


Wind your neck in.  The Law of Holes states that when you find yourself in one, stop digging. You've overrun your headlights.

If you want to snipe the arguments as others (hint: if an argument is repetitive, it probably means it has some merit), then learn to build one yourself.  I don't know how you tried to connect the dots between CAP, grog bowls, and infantry units in Afghanistan (seriously, what kind of experience do you have to just throw anything like that out there?), but the argument is flimsy at best.

Also, bearing tests are dumb and encampment staff trying to yell is the most cringe-inducing things ever.  Change my mind.

SarDragon

There is a ginormous difference between command voice and random semi-coherent shouting/yelling. The latter is just as described, with little real purpose other than intimidation and annoyance of the listener.

Command voice, also known as theater or teacher voice, has a deliberate increase in volume, while maintaining the speech clarity needed to pass on the speaker's intent. I use it all the time in classroom environments.

Gunny Hartman clearly demonstrates both in FMJ. He does a lot of yelling in the barracks, while actually maintaining clarity, while his cadence calling outside is a great example of command voice. I would advise NOT using the good Gunny as a model for behavior, though.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

baronet68

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on October 29, 2019, 07:32:33 pm
Perhaps you should ask some infantry grunts in Afghanistan how incorrectly wearing their uniforms for comfort and writing things on their kevlar covers 'is conductive to the core values'. You'd get an interesting response  >:D


I'm a former US Army Combat Medic who spent 18 months of his life deployed and who has chewed dirt alongside soldiers in Armor, Infantry, Airborne, Field Artillery, Air Defense, and Aviation units.  Unlike many movies you've probably seen, it has been my experience that uniforms are always worn in accordance with the highest standards.  NCOs in particular, place great emphasis on the readiness and professionalism of their soldiers and hold them to the professional standards that are expected of them.

In my experience, anything more than one's own name being written on the band of a helmet cover was immediately addressed as were any deviations in the uniform standard.  The Army empowers officers and NCOs to make reasonable, temporary adjustments to the uniform standards in operational situations where health and safety can be improved without negatively impacting overall effectiveness or military professionalism (such as wearing a bandanna as a dust mask to prevent contraction of hemorrhagic fever or wearing uniform accessories that are recognized by the local population/culture as a sign of a military leadership or friendly forces).  The Army core values include; respect, duty, loyalty, honor, selfless service, integrity, and personal courage and each of these values are demonstrated when Army soldiers wear their uniforms properly, only deviating from the standards when directed by leadership. 

As for finding the core values argument "overused and getting quite repetitive"... the core values are an ideal litmus test for everything you do.  If you can't fit a given action/activity into at least one of the core values, then you should reconsider why you're doing it in the first place.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
Secret Wing Staff Dude, WAWG

Holding Pattern

Quote from: baronet68 on October 29, 2019, 08:46:20 pm
As for finding the core values argument "overused and getting quite repetitive"... the core values are an ideal litmus test for everything you do.  If you can't fit a given action/activity into at least one of the core values, then you should reconsider why you're doing it in the first place.


I wish every commander at every level in CAP embraced this concept.

UWONGO2

I remember being so confused at the first encampment I attended. I had a basic fundamental understanding of hazing and how CAP did not allow it, but there I was sitting at a dinner where cadets either sang or rhymed demeaning and hurtful ditties back and forth until the Vice of the Mess ruled who the "winner" was and sent the loser to the grog. It was the complete antithesis to what I understood our rules to be.

One year a very young senior member had so much abuse aimed at her that even though she never complained, it was ruled she was done going to the grog for the evening. (She struggled with being a recently turned senior from cadet and being a bit of a know-it-all)

When I moved up the rungs of responsibility, against my better judgement I allowed the "tradition" to continue provided the grog was very tame and I told people to keep the shenanigans cheeky and fun, not cruel and tragic. One cadet refused to go to the grog and was clearly terrified. Peer pressure ensued and the kid didn't budge and I intervened. Swore right then and there any activity I have any influence in would not have a grog bowl or this state-sanctioned hazing.

Ned

It's a funny thing.

When we get set to release a new version of either the 60-1 or 60-2, we try to anticipate which new or revised provisions will elicit the largest response either here or on other CAP-related forums.

I'm not sure any of us bet on the grog provision. 

(My money was on the new alcohol provisions.)

Looks like we all get our money back.

Maybe we are, indeed, out of touch.   8)

Toad1168

Quote from: baronet68 on October 29, 2019, 08:46:20 pm

As for finding the core values argument "overused and getting quite repetitive"... the core values are an ideal litmus test for everything you do.  If you can't fit a given action/activity into at least one of the core values, then you should reconsider why you're doing it in the first place.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Stealing this, with the appropriate citation of course.
Toad

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Jester on October 29, 2019, 08:37:41 pm

Also, bearing tests are dumb and encampment staff trying to yell is the most cringe-inducing things ever.  Change my mind.


Bearing tests I can at least justify in the idea of training cadets to maintain their bearing regardless of their surroundings at major events, but most that I've seen are so over the top I can get the negativity that is associated with them.

As a cadet I didn't mind them.

As a cadet I did mind the grog bowl. To this day it still stands out as the worst experience I ever had in CAP.