Young Eagles Pilots versus CAP O-Flight Pilots

Started by xray328, October 19, 2019, 07:15:50 pm

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xray328

I was surprised to learn that the EAA allows brand new pilots, as in 16 years old and just got their PPL yesterday,  fly kids for Young Eagle flights.  Are there really no other requirements?  Seems odd given CAP's requirements for Orientation Flight Pilots.

etodd

Youth Protection Course, background checks, proof of insurance, etc.

Plus the parents of the kids wanting to fly. They can always ask for a more experienced pilot.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

xray328

Doesn't seem like much seat time with CAP wanting 200 hours PIC.   

Eclipse

Quote from: xray328 on October 19, 2019, 08:04:45 pm
Doesn't seem like much seat time with CAP wanting 200 hours PIC.


CAP is many things, but few can honestly question its conservative approach to flight ops, especially in regards to cadets.

Also, there are likely so few pilots under 21 who have the means to be Young Eagles pilots that the exceptions
are easily managed, especially when you consider that the pilot pays the gas, rents or owns the plane, and
has to cover the liability insurance, etc.



farsightusf2017

From the flights I did when I was younger there usually is a stark difference between Orides and EA flights too. All the Young eagle flights I did were essentially extended traffic patterns where an Oride could involve a cross country where more risk is involved and usually young eagles aren't allowed to touch the controls or fly per say like cadets on orides. But really it is The Who is the bottom line on the insurance individual pilot or the AF for orides.

OldGuy

A close relationship between the EAA Young Eagles coordinator and your PAO and R and R team can pay gigantic dividends!

etodd

Quote from: OldGuy on October 20, 2019, 05:20:45 pm
A close relationship between the EAA Young Eagles coordinator and your PAO and R and R team can pay gigantic dividends!


^^^^

I'm in CAP and EAA.  Anytime we schedule a Young Eagles day, we have CAP folks manning a CAP Booth, handing out brochures, STEM kit displays, etc.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

redfire122

I also am EAA & CAP. Whenever I give an o-flight I hand out a young eagle form. That way the cadet gets the free Sporty's ground school and other benefits. Its like giving away $200.


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David McEntire
GLR-IN-084 CC
INWG Glider Operations Officer

etodd

Quote from: redfire122 on October 27, 2019, 11:36:05 pm
I also am EAA & CAP. Whenever I give an o-flight I hand out a young eagle form. That way the cadet gets the free Sporty's ground school and other benefits. Its like giving away $200.


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Cadets get the same deal with Sportys.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/activities/cadet-flying/cap-cadets--young-eagles
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

redfire122

Great, I am really glad they do that. Did this just start or was I unaware.
David McEntire
GLR-IN-084 CC
INWG Glider Operations Officer

Eclipse

Quote from: redfire122 on October 28, 2019, 01:49:56 am
Great, I am really glad they do that. Did this just start or was I unaware.


It has been available for at least 6 years.



murphey

December 02, 2019, 07:20:03 am #11 Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 07:27:42 am by murphey
Quote from: xray328 on October 19, 2019, 07:15:50 pm
I was surprised to learn that the EAA allows brand new pilots, as in 16 years old and just got their PPL yesterday,  fly kids for Young Eagle flights.  Are there really no other requirements?  Seems odd given CAP's requirements for Orientation Flight Pilots.


Private Pilot age is 17, not 16. Altho the minimum criteria is a PPL, each EAA chapter that conducts YE flights may require more stringent limits. I'm a member of an EAA chapter that requires a minimum of 200 hours AFTER the private and an interview with the YE coordinator. But I'm not a CAP pilot - too much overhead and absurdity with paperwork and if you're not a member of "the old boys club"......besides, I own an airplane so I don't need to use CAP to get flight time.

As for insurance, Young Eagle rides have 2 levels - first is EAA then the individual pilot's policy. You'd be surprised at the paperwork we have to go thru for a YE Rallye.

The ORide is a well-defined syllabus, as opposed to a YE flight which each chapter can define as it chooses. Our EAA chapter has a one-flight, one Young Eagle....we don't load up the airplane with 3 kids and do the pattern. Not only that, but we make sure the YE has hands-on time. Since I have a 4 seater, I often get a parent in the back. One day I'm going to mount a camera pointing to the back seat so when I hand the controls to the YE, and tell the parent I'm not touching the controls, the YE can have a photo of the sheer panic on the parent's face!

TheSkyHornet

Are the Young Eagles flights an operational familiarization (i.e., introductory) flight, or an instructional flight like CAP's O-Flights? Obviously, CAP's flights aren't legal instructions (the seated cadet isn't logging time).

etodd

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 02, 2019, 02:07:34 pm
Are the Young Eagles flights an operational familiarization (i.e., introductory) flight, or an instructional flight like CAP's O-Flights? Obviously, CAP's flights aren't legal instructions (the seated cadet isn't logging time).


All the Young Eagle flights we do here, are quite frankly, joy rides.  We do put three in the plane and I'll fly them about 20 minutes doing some sight-seeing. Most of mine have wound up being in that 8-12 year old range. Enough to be interested, but not caring much about details yet. Mostly taking cell phone photos out the window. LOL  Every once in awhile the right seat kid will want to make a few turns and be interested in whats in the panel. They are much younger, and I'm just hoping to create that spark of interest and excitement. An 8 year old still has a few years until they can reach the rudder pedals.
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO - ESO

sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot

xray328

Quote from: murphey on December 02, 2019, 07:20:03 am
Quote from: xray328 on October 19, 2019, 07:15:50 pm
I was surprised to learn that the EAA allows brand new pilots, as in 16 years old and just got their PPL yesterday,  fly kids for Young Eagle flights.  Are there really no other requirements?  Seems odd given CAP's requirements for Orientation Flight Pilots.


Private Pilot age is 17, not 16. Altho the minimum criteria is a PPL, each EAA chapter that conducts YE flights may require more stringent limits. I'm a member of an EAA chapter that requires a minimum of 200 hours AFTER the private and an interview with the YE coordinator. But I'm not a CAP pilot - too much overhead and absurdity with paperwork and if you're not a member of "the old boys club"......besides, I own an airplane so I don't need to use CAP to get flight time.

As for insurance, Young Eagle rides have 2 levels - first is EAA then the individual pilot's policy. You'd be surprised at the paperwork we have to go thru for a YE Rallye.

The ORide is a well-defined syllabus, as opposed to a YE flight which each chapter can define as it chooses. Our EAA chapter has a one-flight, one Young Eagle....we don't load up the airplane with 3 kids and do the pattern. Not only that, but we make sure the YE has hands-on time. Since I have a 4 seater, I often get a parent in the back. One day I'm going to mount a camera pointing to the back seat so when I hand the controls to the YE, and tell the parent I'm not touching the controls, the YE can have a photo of the sheer panic on the parent's face!


https://inspire.eaa.org/2019/10/16/16-year-old-glider-pilot-gives-first-young-eagles-ride/

It's happening in the glider world.



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TheSkyHornet

Another question to stir up debate:

What's the consensus on allowing CAP cadets to go up for Young Eagles (and EAA) plane rides? For example, if a squadron is working a local air show, should the cadets be permitted to fly on non-CAP aircraft as a "Thank you guys for doing a great job!" I'm specifically speaking about in-uniform and/or during the activity--with CAPF 60-80s signed and annotating permission for flying.

Eclipse

Change out of the uniform and go flying.  At that point they are no longer on CAP's clock.

In-uniform, during the activity. No.

Of course nothing stops them from signing out of the CAP part of the activity and taking a flight, then signing back
in, same as if they went to lunch.

Frankly I don't see any real reason they could not fly in an EAA plane in uniform, but why leabe it gray should something happen.

As to a 60-80? Absolutely not.  You want zero implication that flight or plane has anything to do with CAP.
Flying in a non-CAP plane is decidedly a non-CAP activity.



TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2019, 04:16:45 pm
Change out of the uniform and go flying.  At that point they are no longer on CAP's clock.

In-uniform, during the activity. No.

Of course nothing stops them from signing out of the CAP part of the activity and taking a flight, then signing back
in, same as if they went to lunch.

Frankly I don't see any real reason they could not fly in an EAA plane in uniform, but why leabe it gray should something happen.

As to a 60-80? Absolutely not.  You want zero implication that flight or plane has anything to do with CAP.
Flying in a non-CAP plane is decidedly a non-CAP activity.


So what's the regulation that cites that it's a non-CAP activity. I guess that's what I'm looking for: teeth in favor of either side.

I guess the same question applies to, say, a squadron who wants to book a flight on a B-17. Is that a no-no activity?

I talked to our Wing DCP about this who said that he couldn't see anything that really prohibits it. We allow cadets to fly on commercial aircraft with parental permission. What's the difference here? (to play Devil's advocate)

Eclipse

By virtue of it >not< being an approved activity. You can't really prove the negative.

A B-17 flight would require approval by whatever process the respective wing requires - in that case since it would not presumably be free, Wing or higher would have to sign the contract for the flight anyway.

But I would see it as really important to make it clear those flights are in no way connected to CAP.

Commercial travel and to/from activities are explicitly called out as "not CAP's problem" in the regs, except for the
verbiage related to CPT.



TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2019, 04:43:53 pm
By virtue of it >not< being an approved activity. You can't really prove the negative.


A counter to that is the fact that there are a number of activities that aren't approved. We don't have a list of all things pre-approved. We do, however, have a list of activities that require approval and those that will never be approved (i.e., prohibited).

QuoteA B-17 flight would require approval by whatever process the respective wing requires - in that case since it would not presumably be free, Wing or higher would have to sign the contract for the flight anyway.


Take cost association out of it. I'm talking on a philosophical level as an activity, plus or minus the affordability of it.

QuoteBut I would see it as really important to make it clear those flights are in no way connected to CAP.


True.

But if a unit wanted to take the flight, as a CAP activity--briefed at the squadron meeting, a sign-up process, permission slips, etc.--could they?


My only argument for the flights is that they're either something that would qualify as HAA, or that CAP cadets are limited to lights in association with NCSAs or flight training or O-Flights. This is the gray matter that I'm trying to clarify.

I was hoping Ned would chime in. I might just need to go VFR direct via email.