CAP to the Bahamas for Hurricane Dorian Response

Started by etodd, September 17, 2019, 02:10:33 pm

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etodd

QuoteCivil Air Patrol recently sent eight of its Cessnas to the Bahamas to help assess damage inflicted by Hurricane Dorian, in CAP's first international mission in 10 years, CAP National Commander and CEO Maj. Gen. Mark Smith told Air Force Magazine in a Sept. 16 interview at AFA's 2019 Air, Space & Cyber Conference in National Harbor, Md.

"So, Civil Air Patrol was asked to go down and perform aerial imaging, as well as airborne sensors... for aerial surveys of key infrastructure and airfields and those types of things," Smith said. "That was done for several days before the next phase of recovery operations needed to start."


http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2019/September%202019/Civil-Air-Patrol-Sends-Cessnas-to-the-Bahamas-for-Hurricane-Dorian-Response.aspx
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Майор Хаткевич


THRAWN

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etodd

Quote from: THRAWN on September 17, 2019, 02:42:12 pm
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 17, 2019, 02:24:51 pm
No drones?!?  >:D :angel: :clap:


:clap:



;D ;D ;D ;D

Nope.  Wrong type of mission. FEMA Urban SAR Teams not involved on this one. 

WALDO covered this one.  Increasingly taking the place of us APs with our little Nikon DSLRs. How many years before this new tech eliminates the AP position from ES?

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Flying Pig

CAP is interesting in their tasking by FEMA.  Local LE, CBP, US military, USCG have all flown and taken video and photos, and then here comes CAP days later.  Same thing happened here in GA with Dorian.   The Department of Natural Resources flew photo missions and damage assessment missions and determined nothing had happened, with decision makers in the aircraft seeing it first hand and taking photos and video.   The event was over and CAP shows up on scene doing 7-8 hour flight sorties with 2-3 aircraft 3 days after everyone went home and flew the exact same route we had flown.  In fact,  The Dept of Natural Resources was flying and taking photos and video with CAP planes flying the same route at the same time.  Not sure why we need this 4th- 5th level of redundancy using hand held Nikon cameras. FEMA has access to all of the information the LE, CBP and USCG provides.  Id assume they have access to the mil info.  I know CAP likes to go back and talk about flying over 9/11.  But NYPD had aircraft up continually. But when CAP puts it out there, they make is sounds like this Cessna 182 flying by was the only link to the outside world.  Do what youre asked to do, sure.  But the being 4th or 5th down on the level of redundancy is perplexing. 

etodd

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 17, 2019, 03:23:24 pm
CAP is interesting in their tasking by FEMA.  Local LE, CBP, US military, USCG have all flown and taken video and photos, and then here comes CAP days later.  Same thing happened here in GA with Dorian.   The Department of Natural Resources flew photo missions and damage assessment missions and determined nothing had happened, with decision makers in the aircraft seeing it first hand and taking photos and video.   The event was over and CAP shows up on scene doing 7-8 hour flight sorties with 2-3 aircraft 3 days after everyone went home and flew the exact same route we had flown.  In fact,  The Dept of Natural Resources was flying and taking photos and video with CAP planes flying the same route at the same time.  Not sure why we need this 4th- 5th level of redundancy using hand held Nikon cameras. FEMA has access to all of the information the LE, CBP and USCG provides.  Id assume they have access to the mil info.  I know CAP likes to go back and talk about flying over 9/11.  But NYPD had aircraft up continually. But when CAP puts it out there, they make is sounds like this Cessna 182 flying by was the only link to the outside world.  Do what youre asked to do, sure.  But the being 4th or 5th down on the level of redundancy is perplexing.


For sure.   But do we want to point it out or say it too loudly? Take FEMA's use of CAP out of the equation, and how many airplanes might we lose? A few? More than a few? Maybe none? Whether its flooding, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc., CAP has surely put lots of hobbs time into it. I would hate to see that dry up.
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THRAWN

Quote from: etodd on September 17, 2019, 02:48:30 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on September 17, 2019, 02:42:12 pm
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 17, 2019, 02:24:51 pm
No drones?!?  >:D :angel: :clap:


:clap:



;D ;D ;D ;D

Nope.  Wrong type of mission. FEMA Urban SAR Teams not involved on this one. 

WALDO covered this one.  Increasingly taking the place of us APs with our little Nikon DSLRs. How many years before this new tech eliminates the AP position from ES?


Wrong.

"Question: Hi. Thank you for doing this. Are there any plans for the mobilization of more FEMA resources to the Bahamas?

Senior Administration Official: This is USAID. I can take that question and then turn it over to others. At this time, we are deploying, as I mentioned, the two urban search and rescue teams from L.A. County, California and Fairfax County, Virginia. These two urban search and rescue teams happen to be also FEMA teams that respond to domestic emergencies. Other than that, once we identify needs that are not being able to be met, we will identify all sorts of different sources to meet those needs. So, at this time though, we have not requested additional assistance from FEMA."

https://www.state.gov/u-s-response-to-hurricane-dorian-in-the-bahamas-on-background-telephonic-press-briefing-with-senior-administration-officials/
Strup
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etodd

September 17, 2019, 03:48:32 pm #7 Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 03:53:12 pm by etodd
Quote from: THRAWN on September 17, 2019, 03:41:30 pm

At this time, we are deploying, as I mentioned, the two urban search and rescue teams from L.A. County, California and Fairfax County, Virginia. These two urban search and rescue teams happen to be also FEMA teams that respond to domestic emergencies.



Didn't see that article. Thanks for posting! 

Glad to see that the FEMA Urban SAR Teams are getting more coverage.  Someone here at CAPTalk a few weeks ago denied they even existed. Forget who said that.

Yes,  everything is changing quickly.  As Flying Pig posted, who knows if we are truly even needed anymore in many cases. FEMA will handle ground team work, and WALDO for photography. The work we do now? Maybe its politics and we are just being thrown the occasional bone by some FEMA officials. LOL

Whatever gets us working ....
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THRAWN

Quote from: etodd on September 17, 2019, 03:48:32 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on September 17, 2019, 03:41:30 pm

At this time, we are deploying, as I mentioned, the two urban search and rescue teams from L.A. County, California and Fairfax County, Virginia. These two urban search and rescue teams happen to be also FEMA teams that respond to domestic emergencies.



Didn't see that article. Thanks for posting! 

Glad to see that the FEMA Urban SAR Teams are getting more coverage.  Someone here at CAPTalk a few weeks ago denied they even existed. Forget who said that.

Yes,  everything is changing quickly.  As Flying Pig posted, who knows if we are truly even needed anymore in many cases. FEMA will handle ground team work, and WALDO for photography. The work we do now? Maybe its politics and we are just being thrown the occasional bone by some FEMA officials. LOL

Whatever gets us working ....


I did not deny they existed. FEMA owns the names, provides the standard, and the states provide the personnel and training. They are state assets, operating under federal guidelines.
Strup
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etodd

Quote from: THRAWN on September 17, 2019, 03:58:03 pm

I did not deny they existed. ...


Didn't say you did.

At any rate .... back to the post.  Its great to see us being used outside the U.S. again, even if just a quick few days. May open up some more doors. We need new doors for sure. Times a changin'
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PHall

Quote from: etodd on September 17, 2019, 03:48:32 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on September 17, 2019, 03:41:30 pm

At this time, we are deploying, as I mentioned, the two urban search and rescue teams from L.A. County, California and Fairfax County, Virginia. These two urban search and rescue teams happen to be also FEMA teams that respond to domestic emergencies.



Didn't see that article. Thanks for posting! 

Glad to see that the FEMA Urban SAR Teams are getting more coverage.  Someone here at CAPTalk a few weeks ago denied they even existed. Forget who said that.

Yes,  everything is changing quickly.  As Flying Pig posted, who knows if we are truly even needed anymore in many cases. FEMA will handle ground team work, and WALDO for photography. The work we do now? Maybe its politics and we are just being thrown the occasional bone by some FEMA officials. LOL

Whatever gets us working ....


The FEMA part of the USAR teams is that FEMA provides the training and equipment standards and they pay for the deployment costs when they deploy outside of their home states.
California Team 1 is still very much owned and paid by the County of Los Angeles Fire Department.
They are not "owned" by FEMA. FEMA has not paid for any of their equipment. FEMA does help pay for some of the training.

JayT

Quote from: etodd on September 17, 2019, 04:09:51 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on September 17, 2019, 03:58:03 pm

I did not deny they existed. ...


Didn't say you did.

At any rate .... back to the post.  Its great to see us being used outside the U.S. again, even if just a quick few days. May open up some more doors. We need new doors for sure. Times a changin'


Are you talking about USAR or CAP?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

etodd

Quote from: JayT on September 17, 2019, 06:17:36 pm
Quote from: etodd on September 17, 2019, 04:09:51 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on September 17, 2019, 03:58:03 pm

I did not deny they existed. ...


Didn't say you did.

At any rate .... back to the post.  Its great to see us being used outside the U.S. again, even if just a quick few days. May open up some more doors. We need new doors for sure. Times a changin'


Are you talking about USAR or CAP?


I was referring to CAP going to the Bahamas. See the article linked at the top post.  ^^^
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NIN

As somebody who sat in the National Staff Meeting this morning and got to listen to John Desmaris brief on the particulars of our specific mission in the Bahamas, I can appreciate the accuracy of the "informed guesses" here.

Which are certainly "guesses" and pretty much "uninformed" even based on what the General said in the linked article.

Carry on, by all means.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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Ed Bos

Quote from: NIN on September 17, 2019, 08:16:56 pm
As somebody who sat in the National Staff Meeting this morning and got to listen to John Desmaris brief on the particulars of our specific mission in the Bahamas, I can appreciate the accuracy of the "informed guesses" here.

Which are certainly "guesses" and pretty much "uninformed" even based on what the General said in the linked article.

Carry on, by all means.


Soooo... It's CAPTALK?  ::)
EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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PCR-OR-001

etodd

Quote from: NIN on September 17, 2019, 08:16:56 pm
As somebody who sat in the National Staff Meeting this morning and got to listen to John Desmaris brief on the particulars of our specific mission in the Bahamas, I can appreciate the accuracy of the "informed guesses" here.

Which are certainly "guesses" and pretty much "uninformed" even based on what the General said in the linked article.

Carry on, by all means.


I just linked the Air Force Mag article .... expecting High Fives .... then it went sideways as usual, from the usual suspects.

Or are you saying the Air Force Mag got it wrong? Did Desmaris give a different take?

I always assumed Air Force Mag was accurate. Please let me know if I should view it cautiously, as The Onion.
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Flying Pig

Oh lord, the article mentions assessing storm damage in Georgia. :o   Now things are awkward.

PHall

Quote from: etodd on September 17, 2019, 09:27:30 pm
Quote from: NIN on September 17, 2019, 08:16:56 pm
As somebody who sat in the National Staff Meeting this morning and got to listen to John Desmaris brief on the particulars of our specific mission in the Bahamas, I can appreciate the accuracy of the "informed guesses" here.

Which are certainly "guesses" and pretty much "uninformed" even based on what the General said in the linked article.

Carry on, by all means.


I just linked the Air Force Mag article .... expecting High Fives .... then it went sideways as usual, from the usual suspects.

Or are you saying the Air Force Mag got it wrong? Did Desmaris give a different take?

I always assumed Air Force Mag was accurate. Please let me know if I should view it cautiously, as The Onion.


Air Force Magazine is no more accurate or inaccurate then any other non-official news source. Just like any other news source they've been known to get it wrong every now and then.
The news source I trust is the source itself. The Public Affairs offices of the military.

NIN

Quote from: etodd on September 17, 2019, 09:27:30 pm
I just linked the Air Force Mag article .... expecting High Fives .... then it went sideways as usual, from the usual suspects.


Expecting high fives was your first big mistake.

QuoteOr are you saying the Air Force Mag got it wrong? Did Desmaris give a different take?

I always assumed Air Force Mag was accurate. Please let me know if I should view it cautiously, as The Onion.


Its media, no better or worse than anything else.

What we did, and how we did it, in the Bahamas was important. Important enough that the 1AF CC, Lt Gen Sasseville, visited the ICP to meet with CAP about it.

And the products we provided our customers were timely and accurate enough to provide the AF & DoD with actionable intel that informed the response planning cycle and things like the ATO.

So, contrary to widely held opinion, CAP is out there doing relevant stuff today.  Don't buy the naysayers.
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Flying Pig

Quote from: NIN on September 18, 2019, 08:32:18 pm
Quote from: etodd on September 17, 2019, 09:27:30 pm
I just linked the Air Force Mag article .... expecting High Fives .... then it went sideways as usual, from the usual suspects.


Expecting high fives was your first big mistake.

QuoteOr are you saying the Air Force Mag got it wrong? Did Desmaris give a different take?

I always assumed Air Force Mag was accurate. Please let me know if I should view it cautiously, as The Onion.


Its media, no better or worse than anything else.

What we did, and how we did it, in the Bahamas was important. Important enough that the 1AF CC, Lt Gen Sasseville, visited the ICP to meet with CAP about it.

And the products we provided our customers were timely and accurate enough to provide the AF & DoD with actionable intel that informed the response planning cycle and things like the ATO.

So, contrary to widely held opinion, CAP is out there doing relevant stuff today.  Don't buy the naysayers.


So what did CAP do and how did that do it?   

NIN

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 19, 2019, 02:53:08 pm
So what did CAP do and how did that do it?


Not my lane.  I can say that we did some pretty interesting aerial imagery for our customers.

I'm sure the Public Affairs machine will spool up on this. But I'm just some guy on CAP-Talk who's not really the guy to spill all the beans, so to speak.



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Flying Pig

Oh geez.....  here we go again with the secrecy. 

Flying Pig

What type of " pretty interesting aerial imagery" was done? 

PHall

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 19, 2019, 03:24:23 pm
What type of " pretty interesting aerial imagery" was done?


The stuff they took of your back yard was pretty interesting! >:D

Rob, you know the drill. Let the PA folks do their job.

Flying Pig

Those are usually spun so far out of reality its not even worth reading.   I know the deal.  I flew in CAP for years.  The reality of what CAP puts out in the media is seldom what actually happened.   CAP did nothing in the Bahamas that hadnt been done 10x by 5 other organizations.    How do I know that?  Because I was around for a couple hurricanes in FL to include Irma and most recently Dorian where the press releases put out by CAP no where near matched the reality of what actually happened.   CAP flew and took some photos with some hand held cameras.  I get it. 

NIN

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 19, 2019, 03:05:43 pm
Oh geez.....  here we go again with the secrecy.


Its not secrecy, its just that I recall that Moose said there was a reason we weren't releasing imagery and such "outside," whether that was a "customer request" or some other reason.

Not my lane to do so otherwise. I can say 'Yep, we did it' because that's common knowledge (ie. The Airman Magazine piece), and 'Yep it was pretty interesting' because it was, but its not my role or place to go around kicking out slides from the National Staff meeting, especially when I heard we weren't throwing all the details out there just yet.

I'm pretty sure the details of the missions will be made available, but I don't know the timeline or what will be released.

But I am saying the typical naysaying and "rumors of CAP's imminent demise at the hands of other platforms" is premature.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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NIN

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 19, 2019, 05:01:33 pm
CAP flew and took some photos with some hand held cameras.  I get it.


Nope.

Once again, we've got people guessing at what went on.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Flying Pig


Holding Pattern

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 19, 2019, 03:05:43 pm
Oh geez.....  here we go again with the secrecy.


To be abundantly clear, it isn't a secrecy issue.

When on an AFAM you are bound by CAP regulations and ICS rules, both of which say the exact same thing: Public Information releases are authorized by the IC and prepared/disseminated by the PIO.

In a perfect world, CAP would have a well known PIO contact area where people could request information, the PIO could coordinate with the IC and then the PIO would release what the IC allows, based on client needs, public affairs needs, and yes, OPSEC needs.

At this point all we can do is hope someone reading this thread decides to let the PIO/IC know that people want to know more about this story.

PHall

IIRC, the "customer" owns and controls all of the imagery that we produce on a mission. It's their decision not ours.
About the only exception I can think of is if it's a "corporate" mission and the customer is CAP.

SarDragon

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 19, 2019, 05:34:32 pm
So what new gear does CAP have?

There are aircraft equipped with Garmin Virb cameras that have a shutter timer to take sequential pictures along a track. Fly back and forth a few times at 1-2000' AGL, import the images into stitching software, and you can generate some amazing detailed views of the target area.
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Eclipse

September 20, 2019, 12:33:33 am #31 Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 12:37:45 am by Eclipse
Quote from: SarDragon on September 19, 2019, 10:13:14 pm
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 19, 2019, 05:34:32 pm
So what new gear does CAP have?

There are aircraft equipped with Garmin Virb cameras that have a shutter timer to take sequential pictures along a track. Fly back and forth a few times at 1-2000' AGL, import the images into stitching software, and you can generate some amazing detailed views of the target area.


Hardly "new", even to CAP, the rollouts were 4 years ago, though I honestly thought they'd stumbled so much
on the mounting issues that they'ed moved on to other at this point.

GFE is relatively near enough that they could have take one of the airplanes with a remote sensor pod over I suppose.



etodd

September 20, 2019, 01:11:38 am #32 Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 01:48:09 am by etodd
The Waldo system we used in PR is no secret. 2D or 3D imagery from the same pass makes the VIRB look like the low end consumer gear that it is.  Waldo was written up several times and also in trade journals. Nothing OPSEC here.

Been over two years since we used our Squadron's Virb.  For a while I'd keep the battery charged. Probably needs a new one by now. I need to ask Wing if they want to bother ordering a new battery.
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PHall

Quote from: etodd on September 20, 2019, 01:11:38 am
The Waldo system we used in PR is no secret. 2D or 3D imagery from the same pass makes the VIRB look like the low end consumer gear that it is.  Waldo was written up several times and also in trade journals. Nothing OPSEC here.

Been over two years since we used our Squadron's Virb.  For a while I'd keep the battery charged. Probably needs a new one by now. I need to ask Wing if they want to bother ordering a new battery.


If your unit isn't using it then why not turn it in to wing so they can issue it to a unit that will use it.
If for no other reason you guys won't be responsible for it.

etodd

Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2019, 03:56:00 am
Quote from: etodd on September 20, 2019, 01:11:38 am
The Waldo system we used in PR is no secret. 2D or 3D imagery from the same pass makes the VIRB look like the low end consumer gear that it is.  Waldo was written up several times and also in trade journals. Nothing OPSEC here.

Been over two years since we used our Squadron's Virb.  For a while I'd keep the battery charged. Probably needs a new one by now. I need to ask Wing if they want to bother ordering a new battery.


If your unit isn't using it then why not turn it in to wing so they can issue it to a unit that will use it.
If for no other reason you guys won't be responsible for it.


We have several of the VIRB systems in our Wing and I don't believe anybody is using them. I have not heard of anyone in our Region being tasked by FEMA or others use the VIRB  in a couple years.  Other wings and regions may be using them.?
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Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on September 20, 2019, 12:56:54 pm
We have several of the VIRB systems in our Wing and I don't believe anybody is using them. I have not heard of anyone in our Region being tasked by FEMA or others use the VIRB  in a couple years.


All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again...



PHall

Quote from: etodd on September 20, 2019, 12:56:54 pm
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2019, 03:56:00 am
Quote from: etodd on September 20, 2019, 01:11:38 am
The Waldo system we used in PR is no secret. 2D or 3D imagery from the same pass makes the VIRB look like the low end consumer gear that it is.  Waldo was written up several times and also in trade journals. Nothing OPSEC here.

Been over two years since we used our Squadron's Virb.  For a while I'd keep the battery charged. Probably needs a new one by now. I need to ask Wing if they want to bother ordering a new battery.


If your unit isn't using it then why not turn it in to wing so they can issue it to a unit that will use it.
If for no other reason you guys won't be responsible for it.


We have several of the VIRB systems in our Wing and I don't believe anybody is using them. I have not heard of anyone in our Region being tasked by FEMA or others use the VIRB  in a couple years.  Other wings and regions may be using them.?


All the better reason to turn it in to Wing then. Your unit won't have to be responsible for it anymore.
Turning in stuff you don't use anymore is how you keep your unit from becoming a museum of useless stuff...

Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2019, 03:41:47 pm
Turning in stuff you don't use anymore is how you keep your unit from becoming Wing HQs become a museum of useless stuff...


FTFY



etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2019, 03:44:22 pm
Quote from: PHall on September 20, 2019, 03:41:47 pm
Turning in stuff you don't use anymore is how you keep your unit from becoming Wing HQs become a museum of useless stuff...


FTFY


;D ;D ;D

Yep. Give it 5 years and I'll have a fleet of outdated drones to send back. LOL

Times always a changin'

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arajca

As a wing LG, I've made it my mission to close the museum. My inventory is down from ~20 pages when I took over to 6 today. Part of the is getting stuff out to the units that want it, part of is getting rid of the crap.


Eclipse

Quote from: arajca on September 20, 2019, 08:03:36 pm...part of is getting rid of the crap.


Which, in defense of the Wing Museum Curators, sometimes becomes enough of a PITA that it exceeds
a reasonable attention span.

Getting obsolete laptops and similar removed from the books can take months, despite the fact that the equipment is
long since disposed of and documented.

And in the meantime, if you have an SUI or CI, and a less then com...knowledgeable inspector, you might wind up with a finding
regarding missing equipment.  PITA sandwich.



etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2019, 08:23:46 pm
Quote from: arajca on September 20, 2019, 08:03:36 pm...part of is getting rid of the crap.


Which, in defense of the Wing Museum Curators, sometimes becomes enough of a PITA that it exceeds
a reasonable attention span.

Getting obsolete laptops and similar removed from the books can take months, despite the fact that the equipment is
long since disposed of and documented.

And in the meantime, if you have an SUI or CI, and a less then com...knowledgeable inspector, you might wind up with a finding
regarding missing equipment.  PITA sandwich.


I talk often about how I like just working in the trenches in order to not have to worry about stuff like that.  But I really do appreciate those above who are dedicated to the cause enough, to deal with all these things. Everyone from the top to the bottom has their jobs to do, and we all depend on each other. Thanks!
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arajca

Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2019, 08:23:46 pm
Quote from: arajca on September 20, 2019, 08:03:36 pm...part of is getting rid of the crap.


Which, in defense of the Wing Museum Curators, sometimes becomes enough of a PITA that it exceeds
a reasonable attention span.

Getting obsolete laptops and similar removed from the books can take months, despite the fact that the equipment is
long since disposed of and documented.
National is getting much faster at completing retirements - the last few took them one-two days.

QuoteAnd in the meantime, if you have an SUI or CI, and a less then com...knowledgeable inspector, you might wind up with a finding
regarding missing equipment.  PITA sandwich.
That's why you keep the location field up to date. "Turned in to **** for disposal" with "Waiting for National to complete retirement process" in the comments field. CYA management.

Eclipse

To the first point, if this is a recent development, it's a welcome, my last round was earlier this year,
as to the second point, 100% right, makes perfect sense, and yet...