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Ed Bos
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« on: September 13, 2019, 09:14:56 PM »

The Wingman Support Day materials for October are posted at https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/wingman-support-day.

I know from the other thread (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=24467.0) that not everyone is excited about this program, but I think it's useful to sit down every year and let our members consider how we can take care of each other.
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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etodd
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2019, 12:19:35 AM »

Feel Good Programs that Hdqs can hold up and say “We did something”.  Yet so many members will have others plans that night.

I keep wondering about the mentor program we are suppose to have?  I’ve only been around three years but I have a couple guys in my Squadron that I have always considered my mentors. I know I can ask anything or discuss anything off the record and either get answers or guidance. From personal issues to CAP issues.

And now I’m trying to give back. I have a couple new members I’m helping to guide through the system and also working them through Mission Scanner now. I hope as we become friends they will feel comfortable in knowing they can seek my help if needed.

I’m a grass roots guy. National programs can set some policy, but it’s down here at one on one level where you can develop those relationships that can make a difference in the lives of fellow members. It has to come from the heart. Can’t teach that on a PowerPoint.

JMHO
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Gunsotsu
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2019, 01:37:04 AM »

Quote from: etodd
Yet so many members will have others plans that night.

Easy fix, don't attend that night.

These needless stand-down days? Rob members of valuable time that could be spent dealing with other issues that actually affect their squadron, rather than the national chaplin's current pet project. 
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Ed Bos
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2019, 09:55:14 PM »

Quote from: etodd
Yet so many members will have others plans that night.

Easy fix, don't attend that night.

These needless stand-down days? Rob members of valuable time that could be spent dealing with other issues that actually affect their squadron, rather than the national chaplin's commander’s current pet project.

Fixed that for you.

And I’m interested in hearing about your background and expertise in this area. How did you come to learn about wellness and the fruitlessness of this type of intervention?
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2019, 03:59:41 AM »

you folks are something else...

CAP HQ identifies a potential issue and tries to address it.

Members: how dare they..




CAP NHQ ignores a potential issue.

Members: how dare they ignore this.



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jeders
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 01:18:08 PM »

you folks are something else...

CAP HQ identifies a potential issue and tries to address it.

Members: how dare they..




CAP NHQ ignores a potential issue.

Members: how dare they ignore this.

Welcome to CAP Talk; located at the intersection of bandwidth and boredom.  >:D
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 01:49:50 PM »

Where outrage and apathy occupy the same airspace
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etodd
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 02:58:38 PM »

Quote
Where outrage and apathy occupy the same airspace

Neither for me. Give Hdqs an "A for Effort" ... but some of this stuff just tickles me:

Quote
Sleep Card Game Sleep for Kids - Teaching Kids the Importance of Sleep

For KIDS is correct. Its on a second grade level. Our Cadets would be embarrassed by this. Who put this stuff together? Do they know we start as teens? That one item alone makes me wonder if whoever put this together knows who CAP members are.
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2019, 03:22:34 PM »

This falls square into "Flat Tire"...

1 - Recognizing a tire is flat does not give one the skills, knowledge, or ability to repair it.

2 - Attempts to repair a flat tire by someone who is unqualified can result in additional damage, sometimes more serious than the flat itself.
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Ed Bos
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2019, 03:21:21 AM »


For KIDS is correct. Its on a second grade level. Our Cadets would be embarrassed by this. Who put this stuff together? Do they know we start as teens? That one item alone makes me wonder if whoever put this together knows who CAP members are.

I did. I appreciate the feedback. I thought it would be easy to understand, that's why I chose to include it. The rest of the team didn't see the same concern you have, and I'll be sure to pass it on.

This falls square into "Flat Tire"...

1 - Recognizing a tire is flat does not give one the skills, knowledge, or ability to repair it.

2 - Attempts to repair a flat tire by someone who is unqualified can result in additional damage, sometimes more serious than the flat itself.

Qualified to make that assessment, eh? I'm totally interested to hear your professional opinion on the matter. Fitness trainer? Physician? Therapist? Psychologist? What background are you calling upon to make your assessment?

We have qualified people on the team who put this together, and we're always eager to collaborate with folks who have an interest in making programs better.
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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Gunsotsu
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2019, 04:29:55 PM »

Quote from: Ed Bos
We have qualified people on the team who put this together

Cite your sources.
Who are they?
What are their qualifications?
What experience do they have disseminating complex mental health topics to untrained, unqualified volunteers for wide dissemination?


 
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Ned
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2019, 05:26:27 PM »


Cite your sources.
Who are they?
What are their qualifications?
What experience do they have disseminating complex mental health topics to untrained, unqualified volunteers for wide dissemination?

Instead of playing "gotcha," you might consider taking a look at the actual Wingman Support Day page on the CAP website, where the committee members are listed.

In particular, take a look at this guy, CDR Thomas Janisko, the command surgeon for the US Army Corps of Engineers and Director of the Corps of Engineers CISM Team, which " provides peer support, operational stress control, and resiliency training to all employees.".  He might know a thing or two about resiliency.  (He is also a dedicated CAP member.)


Who, along with dedicated CAP chaplains, senior leaders, and CP specialists developed this program.  All of whom know a thing or two about training and working with volunteers.


I understand it is harder to actually look at the materials and the qualifications of the personnel rather than placing a response such as yours here on CAP Talk, but sometimes it might be worth the effort.


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Gunsotsu
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2019, 06:36:46 PM »

It isn't "gotcha," Ned, it's information that needs to be presented to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the information being presented is doing so from an understanding of child psychological issues and need. Nothing in CDR Janisko's biography suggests that he is in any way qualified to speak on the topic for anyone other than adults in his realm. Cadets (children) are not little adults, their psychological needs are vastly different, even more so when you consider that a 12 year old and an 18 year old may as well be entirely different species from a mental health standpoint (not to say physiologically).

I've said my piece. It was a waste of time last year, it's still a waste of time this year. I'll be taking a mental health day the night it's required (without any supporting documentation authorizing such).   
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2019, 06:49:27 PM »

Ned, not only those arguments that have been presented. But as a retired library teacher at the public school level, and college I always taught "cite your sources." And expected to see a quote whether it was a professor or other material. None of this information is stated in the support material without really digging. So in effect CAP is asking us to accept this at face value! If they would have included this info in all materials we are being asked to use you would not see as much criticism!
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etodd
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2019, 07:13:04 PM »

I have no qualms or questions about the folks that created the materials. I'm sure its great stuff.  My concerns are always "grass roots".

I'll give you an example.  I have a grandson who has some autism. Met with his teacher to discuss all the issues and see what we and they would be doing. There are protocols and things already setup in the school board system here for all this. We had done our research and knew everything ahead of time.  So we meet with the teacher and start discussing things and she is clueless, we wind up telling her everything, and so many things she doesn't understand because she will not admit ignorance.  She then proceeds to inform us that she is certified/something in dealing with autism in the classroom. We dig more to find out about her qualifications and it turns out she just went to a weekend seminar that included a 3 hour class on autism. They gave her a little certificate, and so now she thinks she is an expert. Sound familiar?

Send out all the info you like. But add lots of disclaimers to it. CAP member reading through a PowerPoint or attending a workshop while stuffing down donuts and coffee .. does NOT make them qualified to deal with serious issues, with Cadets especially. As I said in the other thread, never get between a Cadet and the parents on these issues. Its their job.
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Larry Mangum
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2019, 07:25:10 PM »

The military as a whole is grappling with reaching out to fellow sailors, soldiers, marines and airman as they cope with the stresses they are under. NHQ, is simply trying to do the same for our fellow CAP members.  Is it a perfect program, of course not, there is not a perfect program nor will there ever be one. However, even if it is not perfect, it is better than doing nothing. If the program saves one cadet's or senior member's life, then the entire program has been worth it, in my humble opinion.

If you find faults within the program, then submit recommendations on how to improve the program through the proper channels. I work in the software industry and manage a development team. We are an agile team, which means we iterate, no release is expected to be perfect, but we keep iterating and improving upon the solution, until it meets the needs of the customer or business unit.

I challenge each of you to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2019, 07:50:19 PM »

The military is also the culprit/inducer on depression and suicides related to military personnel—particularly in regard to deployments/family separation, loss, culture, and other work-related stressors, not to forget a number of health-related problems (i.e., veterans).

It's a remarkably different age group that has a significant difference in life experience and life-related stressors. While there may be commonalities (i.e., we all have stressful deadlines, family arguing, etc.), youth depression and military depression are vastly different and must be treated as such.

So I think to say "Well, the military is doing it; why shouldn't we" is inappropriate for this type of content.

The rate of suicides has skyrocketed in the last two decades in the United States, upwards of a 21-33% increase for ages 15 to 64. That 15-year-old needs to be targeted much differently than the 64-year-old in regard to coping mechanisms and day-to-day life. Those ages are worlds apart in what stresses them out and how they perceive the universe around them.
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Ed Bos
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2019, 08:05:59 PM »

Ned, not only those arguments that have been presented. But as a retired library teacher at the public school level, and college I always taught "cite your sources." And expected to see a quote whether it was a professor or other material. None of this information is stated in the support material without really digging. So in effect CAP is asking us to accept this at face value! If they would have included this info in all materials we are being asked to use you would not see as much criticism!

Hey Luis, I put the references on a slide in the presentation. It’s not APA or MLA, but we’re not obfuscating that the material came from somewhere else.
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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Ed Bos
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2019, 08:07:42 PM »

It isn't "gotcha," Ned, it's information that needs to be presented to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the information being presented is doing so from an understanding of child psychological issues and need. Nothing in CDR Janisko's biography suggests that he is in any way qualified to speak on the topic for anyone other than adults in his realm. Cadets (children) are not little adults, their psychological needs are vastly different, even more so when you consider that a 12 year old and an 18 year old may as well be entirely different species from a mental health standpoint (not to say physiologically).

I've said my piece. It was a waste of time last year, it's still a waste of time this year. I'll be taking a mental health day the night it's required (without any supporting documentation authorizing such).

I’m curious why you chose to invoke the standard for a criminal sentencing in this case?
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2019, 02:16:32 AM »

It isn't "gotcha," Ned, it's information that needs to be presented to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the information being presented is doing so from an understanding of child psychological issues and need. Nothing in CDR Janisko's biography suggests that he is in any way qualified to speak on the topic for anyone other than adults in his realm. Cadets (children) are not little adults, their psychological needs are vastly different, even more so when you consider that a 12 year old and an 18 year old may as well be entirely different species from a mental health standpoint (not to say physiologically).

I've said my piece. It was a waste of time last year, it's still a waste of time this year. I'll be taking a mental health day the night it's required (without any supporting documentation authorizing such).

I’m curious why you chose to invoke the standard for a criminal sentencing in this case?

He didn’t. The criminal standard is not “beyond a shadow of a doubt,” as he wrote. It is “beyond a reasonable doubt.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Ed Bos
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« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2019, 05:01:00 AM »

It isn't "gotcha," Ned, it's information that needs to be presented to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the information being presented is doing so from an understanding of child psychological issues and need. Nothing in CDR Janisko's biography suggests that he is in any way qualified to speak on the topic for anyone other than adults in his realm. Cadets (children) are not little adults, their psychological needs are vastly different, even more so when you consider that a 12 year old and an 18 year old may as well be entirely different species from a mental health standpoint (not to say physiologically).

I've said my piece. It was a waste of time last year, it's still a waste of time this year. I'll be taking a mental health day the night it's required (without any supporting documentation authorizing such).

I’m curious why you chose to invoke the standard for a criminal sentencing in this case?

He didn’t. The criminal standard is not “beyond a shadow of a doubt,” as he wrote. It is “beyond a reasonable doubt.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok.
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EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2019, 06:18:19 AM »

The military as a whole is grappling with reaching out to fellow sailors, soldiers, marines and airman as they cope with the stresses they are under. NHQ, is simply trying to do the same for our fellow CAP members.  Is it a perfect program, of course not, there is not a perfect program nor will there ever be one. However, even if it is not perfect, it is better than doing nothing. If the program saves one cadet's or senior member's life, then the entire program has been worth it, in my humble opinion.

If you find faults within the program, then submit recommendations on how to improve the program through the proper channels. I work in the software industry and manage a development team. We are an agile team, which means we iterate, no release is expected to be perfect, but we keep iterating and improving upon the solution, until it meets the needs of the customer or business unit.

I challenge each of you to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Here's a fault with the program......

Kids don't learn from a PowerPoint presentation.  Period.

Also, I really am very uncomfortable with someone who has NO training, NO knowledge, and NO experience in child psychology or child mental healthcare facilitating this at the local level.
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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 01:45:17 PM »

Bravo on actually loading a PowerPoint presentation instead of the PDF versions that are impossible to scroll through.  :clap:

On a serious note, Let's try to criticize less and look at what NHQ is trying to do here.  We need to look at the welfare of our members as a whole.  And if this saves one life, its worth it. 
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« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2019, 05:37:13 PM »

And if this saves one life, its worth it.


So...throwing darts in the dark and patting each other on the back? Got it.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2019, 05:38:37 PM »

Those of us stating our concerns are looking out for our members! If the age level of the materials, for instance, is as stated at a "second grade level," our members will not pay attention at the presentation and there will be no lesson learned, no matter how important / relevant / great / opportune it is.
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Ned
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« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2019, 06:26:44 PM »


Here's a fault with the program......

Kids don't learn from a PowerPoint presentation.  Period.


There is, of course, no shortage of academic research on effective teaching methods for junior and senior high school students.  And I'm sure you will not be surprised that whether it is old school filmstrips, overheads, PowerPoint, Prezi, SlideShare, Haiku Deck, or other, even more modern alternatives, that the key is the active participation in the learning.  Not the format of the slides.  As all of us who have participated in "death by PowerPoint" passive learning situations know all too well.   8)

Accordingly, I suspect you will be pleased to hear that the creators of the course wisely uses teacher / facilitators / presenters who follow a lesson plan designed specifically to engage the students with everything from icebreakers to discussions.  And we have asked the presenters to be pretrained by webinar conducted last week (and the recorded version is available online). 

Sounds like a win-win to me.
Quote
Also, I really am very uncomfortable with someone who has NO training, NO knowledge, and NO experience in child psychology or child mental healthcare facilitating this at the local level.

Well, as we've discussed before, our terrific volunteers are certainly not certified mental-health professionals.  But they are respected, adult mentors to whom cadets often turn for advice. 

And what they are teaching on this Wingman Day are Physical Fitness, Rest, Nutrition, and Recreation.  Each are important topics in this context, but none really require a Phd to present effectively to our members.

The lesson plans, PowerPoints, and supporting materials are all available on the NHQ Wingman Support Day page.  I encourage everyone with an interest to take a close look.  Particularly before criticizing the program.  Every educational program can be improved, and I'm sure the authors would welcome your feedback after you have reviewed the materials.


I'm looking forward to October's meeting.
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2019, 07:27:24 PM »

Thank you, Ned, for your usual eloquent summation. (Something you learned in college? ;) )

On that note (A#), we will end this. The usual provision applies for resumption.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2019, 10:06:32 PM »

Re-opened by request. Let's try to keep it more adult this time.
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« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2019, 10:20:27 PM »

Bravo on actually loading a PowerPoint presentation instead of the PDF versions that are impossible to scroll through.  :clap:


Side note... "CTRL + L" in Acrobat Reader will put a PDF file into Full-Screen mode were it will perform exactly like a PowerPoint presentation (sans animation, thank goodness).
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2019, 12:27:32 AM »

Bravo on actually loading a PowerPoint presentation instead of the PDF versions that are impossible to scroll through.  :clap:


Side note... "CTRL + L" in Acrobat Reader will put a PDF file into Full-Screen mode were it will perform exactly like a PowerPoint presentation (sans animation, thank goodness).

And it should be noted that the reason NHQ does then as PDFs, is because not everyone has PowerPoint, including
on corporate laptops, and not all presentations are on on PCs anymore.

Pretty much everything these days can open a PDF, and then you can be reasonably sure the presentation is accessible
and works the same for everyone.

As noted, it works just like PPT, including using a clicker.
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Ed Bos
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2019, 07:24:03 AM »

Bravo on actually loading a PowerPoint presentation instead of the PDF versions that are impossible to scroll through.  :clap:


Side note... "CTRL + L" in Acrobat Reader will put a PDF file into Full-Screen mode were it will perform exactly like a PowerPoint presentation (sans animation, thank goodness).

Great tip, thanks! Also, I don't think there are any animations in the PPT version... Because they're the worst.
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2019, 02:12:20 PM »

PDF is much more universal and is generally accessible on all computer platforms and mobile devices; however, with PDFs, you may lose the ability to edit and update the file if you don't have the original document or don't have advanced/pay versions of Acrobat.
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etodd
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2019, 02:13:30 PM »

Quote
And it should be noted that the reason NHQ does then as PDFs, is because not everyone has PowerPoint, including
on corporate laptops, and not all presentations are on on PCs anymore.

As a sidetrack, I wish everyone would stop posting doc files for the same reason. Please convert to PDFs. Not everyone has MSWord or whatever and the fonts wind up being different which makes everything look horrible, and screwed up spacing.

My Wing does this constantly. 😰
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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2019, 02:30:39 PM »

Quote
And it should be noted that the reason NHQ does then as PDFs, is because not everyone has PowerPoint, including
on corporate laptops, and not all presentations are on on PCs anymore.

As a sidetrack, I wish everyone would stop posting doc files for the same reason. Please convert to PDFs. Not everyone has MSWord or whatever and the fonts wind up being different which makes everything look horrible, and screwed up spacing.

My Wing does this constantly. 😰

And it's tacky.

Don't send out a document that opens up with little squigglies and format issues all over it. Send out the file that you want someone to see, not the file that you saw behind the scenes in the creativity lab.
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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2019, 02:34:30 PM »

Every CAP laptop distributed in the last few years comes with MS Office, Adobe Acrobat, and Acrobat Reader.

There are plenty of free programs out that will work with .docx, .xlsx, ad nauseum. Personally, I use LibreOffice. The one I have problems with is Apple's format - I can't find anything to read it with.

Format issues are the writer's problem. It's just the .pdf doesn't call them out. The spelling error marks depend on how you've customized your dictionary.
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etodd
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« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2019, 03:31:07 PM »

Every CAP laptop distributed in the last few years comes with MS Office, Adobe Acrobat, and Acrobat Reader.


The average member does not have a CAP issued laptop, and while sitting at home and they need to open and print out a form, it would just make life a whole lot easier if the posted file was a pdf.  The last couple of doc files I downloaded had the spacing and fonts all screwed up so bad, I didn't even bother trying to correct it. Just filled in the info to the side and signed it in some weird place and turned it in. If they complain, I'll bring up the pdf idea. LOL
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2019, 05:49:18 AM »

PDF is much more universal and is generally accessible on all computer platforms and mobile devices; however, with PDFs, you may lose the ability to edit and update the file if you don't have the original document or don't have advanced/pay versions of Acrobat.

If you have a PDF file that needs some small tweak and you can't edit it, send it to mmoore [at] adobe [dot] com and I'll see what I can do to help.

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