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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: How to find how many Finds/Sorties you have
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Author Topic: How to find how many Finds/Sorties you have  (Read 440 times)
C/CMSgt Allen
Recruit

Posts: 23
Unit: GLR-OH-115

« on: August 13, 2019, 02:00:03 AM »

Navigating EServices can be hard sometimes and I honestly can't find where you find how many sorties you have been on, or how many finds I have. I am 99.9% sure I have 2 finds from blue beret and at least 10 sorties, just want to be 100% sure. Thanks.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 02:48:19 AM »

AFAIK, finds are tracked at wing. Mission participation is tracked in WMIRS, not eServices. Cadets may not have access.

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Dave Bowles
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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 02:57:36 AM »

Correct.

Sorties are tracked in WMIRS, only accessible to members with either specific OPS Quals or
who have been explicitly granted rights.  Further to this, NBB is a national mission, so you probably
wouldn't have access to it any way unless you have national rights.

Your best bet is to contact the NBB people directly.  I would be surprised if members were awarded Finds
without substantiation, and with 10 sorties you'd be eligible for the SAR ribbon as well.
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xyzzy
Member

Posts: 52

« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 01:35:14 PM »

Once you get a paper record of your finds, if you want to record the ribbon in eServices, click on your name in the upper-left-hand corner of eServices, then click "Service Ribbons". Then, near the top of the window, click "Add Previously Authorized Ribbon". Follow the instructions to choose the ribbon and enter the date it was awarded. After you submit the entry, it will go to your unit commander for online approval.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 03:16:50 PM »

I attended NBB this past year and was awarded with a find, and the Air SAR ribbon. They even printed the 2A.
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xyzzy
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Posts: 52

« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 05:35:55 PM »

I attended NBB this past year and was awarded with a find, and the Air SAR ribbon. They even printed the 2A.

After reading Capmonkey's post, I re-read R39-3, page 14. It says credit for finds can be given "any CAP member of the wing making a find (distress or non-distress) on a search and rescue mission." I had interpreted that differently than whoever awarded Capmonkey credit for a find, so I searched R39-3 and saw on page 29 that search and rescue mission awards are covered by R60-3. That regulation on page 19 adds a bit more information: "All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated."

Lots of people in my wing, including myself, have made finds during SAREXs, but nobody that I know of has been given credit for a find. I always thought it meant that some member of the public, not involved in any sort of exercise, triggers a search by getting lost, accidentally activating a distress beacon, thinking someone is in distress when they're not, etc. CAP finds the cause of the alarm, and awards either a distress or non-distress credit to those involved. Have I been reading it wrong?
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Ozzy
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Unit: GA

« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 05:40:28 PM »

I attended NBB this past year and was awarded with a find, and the Air SAR ribbon. They even printed the 2A.

After reading Capmonkey's post, I re-read R39-3, page 14. It says credit for finds can be given "any CAP member of the wing making a find (distress or non-distress) on a search and rescue mission." I had interpreted that differently than whoever awarded Capmonkey credit for a find, so I searched R39-3 and saw on page 29 that search and rescue mission awards are covered by R60-3. That regulation on page 19 adds a bit more information: "All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated."

Lots of people in my wing, including myself, have made finds during SAREXs, but nobody that I know of has been given credit for a find. I always thought it meant that some member of the public, not involved in any sort of exercise, triggers a search by getting lost, accidentally activating a distress beacon, thinking someone is in distress when they're not, etc. CAP finds the cause of the alarm, and awards either a distress or non-distress credit to those involved. Have I been reading it wrong?

I believe CAP determines it for those missions. Per the reg, the only reference for an outside agency to make a determination is the Coast Guard for an assist.


Also to check your sorties/missions, in WMIRS you could do a search for you CAP ID and see which missions you have been signed into. Then go through the ground sorties and see which you are on and check the debrief notes to see if you were on that team.

Only problem to this is that only five years (I think) is held in WMIRS so you'll have to keep track of which missions you have and such. (I keep a notepad document with the mission number, how many sorties, which position I was on, and if we had a find or not). It helped me out quite a bit when I came back to CAP and my file was lost (Squadron moved several times and lost the majority of their records)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 05:44:42 PM by Ozzy » Report to moderator   Logged
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xyzzy
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2019, 05:46:15 PM »


I believe CAP determines it for those missions. Per the reg, the only reference for an outside agency to make a determination is the Coast Guard for an assist.

I agree CAP makes the determination; what I'm wondering about is the criteria. If I were the wing commander (heaven forbid) awarding the credit, should I only award it for missions that seem like the real thing when they begin, or should I also award it for exercises that have been assigned a mission number?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2019, 06:03:59 PM »

FINDS are only awarded on actual missions, not SAREXs or other training.

Determination is generally by the IC.

Saves are a different matter, but still only on actuals.
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Ozzy
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 06:12:58 PM »

I agree CAP makes the determination; what I'm wondering about is the criteria. If I were the wing commander (heaven forbid) awarding the credit, should I only award it for missions that seem like the real thing when they begin, or should I also award it for exercises that have been assigned a mission number?

I guess that gets determined when the person/ELT is found. If its found and determined that there is no emergency (AKA accidental activation), then it's a non-distress. If there was an emergency and additional actions are needed, such as extraction or call 911, then it's a distress.

Rereading your quote, I'm a little confused. Are you asking if during a SAREX that you get find credit? If so then no, you do not. Find credit and credit for the ASAR ribbon are for actual AFM; you get no credit for training missions.
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sardak
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 06:35:03 PM »

The others are correct that finds are awarded for actual beacon, aircraft or person finds, not training finds.  Actual finds made during a training mission are a different issue to deal with.

AFRCC also designates finds and saves at the mission level (not the individual member level) which are shown in WMIRS.

As for Oshkosh, that is always an AFAM, AFRCC SAR mission, mission symbol A1,  this year it was 19-M-0401.  WMIRS shows 20 AFRCC credited finds for this year's mission.  The mission paperwork should show the individuals involved in those 20 finds.

AFRCC find totals for the last four years of Oshkosh.
2015 - 19
2016 - 46
2017 - 7
2018 - 47

Mike
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Color Guard Rifleman
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 06:51:45 PM »

I have 23 sorties, with only one find, all from NBB. How do they count the sorties there? Because there is no way I was on that many, I only had ES shift 5 times.
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C/SMSgt Murphy Killeen, CAP
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Ozzy
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2019, 07:25:50 PM »

I have 23 sorties, with only one find, all from NBB. How do they count the sorties there? Because there is no way I was on that many, I only had ES shift 5 times.

What other shifts did you have? Flight line marshall, base ops? Those count for sorties as well, although they have different hour commitments
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2019, 08:09:02 PM »

I have 23 sorties, with only one find, all from NBB. How do they count the sorties there? Because there is no way I was on that many, I only had ES shift 5 times.

What other shifts did you have? Flight line marshall, base ops? Those count for sorties as well, although they have different hour commitments

Yeah, A LOT of FLM. Not as much Base Ops. An about 2 two shifts
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C/SMSgt Murphy Killeen, CAP
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Ozzy
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2019, 10:30:32 PM »

I have 23 sorties, with only one find, all from NBB. How do they count the sorties there? Because there is no way I was on that many, I only had ES shift 5 times.

What other shifts did you have? Flight line marshall, base ops? Those count for sorties as well, although they have different hour commitments

Yeah, A LOT of FLM. Not as much Base Ops. An about 2 two shifts

So FLM does count for sorties (1 Every 8 hours vs 4 hours for Ground Team).

That is probably part of the reason why you have a decent amount of sorties.
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Spam
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2019, 02:54:34 AM »


Fewer sorties are not necessarily a Bad Thing, but are in fact one index of the health and safety of aviation.


Was a time (in the before time, when the 'Pockyclypse of FAA TSO C91a had not yet brought Mr. Death to all the old ELTs) when CAP had probably a dozen missions going every night, coast to coast. In the late 80s in FL Wing, we logged something like 150 - 200 ELT missions a year, 5 - 6 actual missing aircraft a year, and 1 - 2 storm related DR missions a year. I recall flying every week, my junior year as an undergrad.  Those ND Find ribbons got so numerous, my friends and I stopped documenting them with Form 2As... no big deal, unless it was an actual distress mission. I stopped logging all the mission numbers when I hit a hundred something actuals.

I'm not at all nostalgic about all that wasted time. So many man-hours wasted. People that got hurt or died (the more you expose your people to risk, the greater the cumulative chance that an accident will happen on a needless bug hunt). So, the safety investments made world wide in improved equipment, procedures, and training aimed at reducing accident rates and severity have, to me, been a hugely successful investment. In the late 90s the White House NASA commission on aviation safety laid out our goal to reduce mishaps by an order of magnitude by 2010. I think we all scoffed a bit when they handed that to us as our goal.  And yet, here we are. Its a better, safer world (well, this corner of it).

I'm looking forward to turning in my keys to Wing next month (I didn't apply for The Job) to go back to a unit next month where I can resume spending my available volunteer time training and being trained, but the mission mix has shifted. It will be interesting to shift to meet the threat and find new roles.


Just... keep the sorties/ribbons in perspective. We measure success in other ways, too.


V/r
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