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Author Topic: Assigning a C/SSgt as First Sergeant  (Read 1033 times)
CapStranger
Recruit

Posts: 10

« on: August 09, 2019, 06:42:44 PM »

Is it at the C/CC's choice of who can serve as first sergeant, even if they are not C/MSgt-C/CMSgt? We have 4 ncos and 3 officers in our squadron. the three officers are serving as command staff, 1 of our C/CMSgt is serving as flight com, the other is working on his Mitchell and the C/SMSgt is serving as flight sergeant. I don't feel like this should be allowed but i don't know the regs for it.
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C/2dLt
CAC Representative
Alpha Flight Commander
Eclipse
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Posts: 30,565

« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2019, 06:49:43 PM »

No.

The process for the selection will be up to the CC and CDC, however to be eligible, per regulation,
they must meet the below minimums.

CAPR 60-1, Page 20:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAPR_601__Cadet_Program_Management__36D2A228D5925.pdf

"4.1.1. Design Considerations. There is no standard organizational structure for a cadet staff. Each unit
will design a staff structure that is appropriate for its mix of cadets, consistent with the broad principles
set forth in CAPP 60-31. Cadets must meet the grade eligibility requirements shown in Table 4.1 below to
serve in cadet staff positions. To afford units flexibility, minimum grades for some positions are set lower
than their doctrinally pure levels (e.g., flight commander is an officer position by doctrine, but a C/MSgt
may be assigned.)"



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Ozzy
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Posts: 462
Unit: GA

« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2019, 10:47:59 PM »

You also don't need to have a cadet first sergeant. I'm not too much of a fan of the position, a lot of squadrons tend to use it incorrectly and thus hinder the growth of their flight commanders and flight sergeants.
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Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2019, 12:34:27 AM »

You also don't need to have a cadet first sergeant. I'm not too much of a fan of the position, a lot of squadrons tend to use it incorrectly and thus hinder the growth of their flight commanders and flight sergeants.

As a squadron commander always looking to learn new things...

What is the wrong way you see them used and what is the right way?
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Color Guard Rifleman
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Posts: 179
Unit: GLR-MI-265

Grand Rapids Metro Cadet Squadron
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2019, 01:45:21 AM »

You also don't need to have a cadet first sergeant. I'm not too much of a fan of the position, a lot of squadrons tend to use it incorrectly and thus hinder the growth of their flight commanders and flight sergeants.

As a squadron commander always looking to learn new things...

What is the wrong way you see them used and what is the right way?

I feel like you are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is saying "I am unsure that a SSgt can be a First Sergeant. Is that right?" Not "This cadet is in the wrong position because other people are more qualified."

CapStranger, if this isn't what you are trying to say, sorry for putting words in your mouth
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C/SMSgt Murphy Killeen, CAP
2019 MIWG Encampment Squadron 2 First Sergeant
Recruiting NCO

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Color Guard Rifleman
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Grand Rapids Metro Cadet Squadron
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2019, 01:46:31 AM »

removed
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C/SMSgt Murphy Killeen, CAP
2019 MIWG Encampment Squadron 2 First Sergeant
Recruiting NCO

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CapStranger
Recruit

Posts: 10

« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2019, 04:49:37 PM »

So can the C/CC make an exception for this regulation or is that not allowed. Honestly, we only have around 14 cadets who come to the meeting every night(5 airmen, 5 NCO's, and 4 officers). I don't even think we need a first sergeant, we only ever have one flight at the meetings.
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C/2dLt
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Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2019, 05:03:50 PM »

So can the C/CC make an exception for this regulation or is that not allowed.

No. The verbiage is clear, and uses "must", not "should". There are also good order, discipline and training
reasons for this.

And without putting too fine a point on it, this is a Unit Commander / Unit Deputy Commander decision, not the Cadet Commander,
who may have input, but is not the approval authority or final say.

FWIW I would agree with Ozzy, CAP cadets are too transient in their grades and roles to make proper use of a First Sergeant in the
majority of squadrons.  You have to have an less-than-common scale for things to work properly.  The typical 2-flight CAP
unit isn't going to have a large enough span of control to make the job anything more then one more link in the "go outside and
call them in" chain.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2019, 05:09:03 PM »

What case can be made that the appointment of an unqualified cadet to an optional role in a unit too small
to properly fill the manning table is appropriate or warranted?

What is the need?

What is the advantage?

If a clear regulation as quoted can be ignored for expediency or ego, what other regulations are optional?
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GaryVC
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 04:57:44 PM »

Our first sergeant is also the cadet responsible for PT. We have 50 cadets so we do not usually have problems with the grade. I don't think a unit with 14 cadets needs a first sergeant.
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CapStranger
Recruit

Posts: 10

« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2019, 03:58:26 AM »

Ok, so this staff can not accept these regulations and will not fix this issue. They are leading this squadron in the wrong direction and I have no reason or desire to serve on staff. I wish to quit staff, how do I go about doing this?
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C/2dLt
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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2019, 04:06:45 AM »

Just politely resign your position, but be prepared to also politely explain the reasoning,
and unless you change squadrons, you'll still need to deal with the situation, only now
you'll be rank and file, which might be more frustrating for you.

Part of learning to be a leader is being a follower, and you'll find plenty more situations
in your life where you simply have to accept things as they are and move on, whether
it's school, job, family, etc.

If you've made your concerns known, make notes for when it's your turn, and fix things when
you can.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,977

« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2019, 12:58:45 PM »

Question:
Are you a cadet or a senior member?

The guidance I'd like to offer on this will probably have a different approach.
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foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 177

« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2019, 01:28:54 PM »

Eclipse has already provided the factual and correct answer to the OP's question. I think sometimes C/CCs forget (or possibly don't fully understand) that they're operating in a leadership laboratory, and that actual authority lies with the senior members in charge.

I also believe the Cadet Staff Handbook should be the basis for any discussion about how and whether certain cadet staff positions should be implemented.

[Edited for grammar]
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 06:26:23 PM by foo » Report to moderator   Logged
arajca
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Posts: 4,455

« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2019, 01:47:28 PM »

Eclipse has already provided the factual and correct answer to the OP's question. I think sometimes C/CC's forget (or possibly don't fully understand) that they're operating in a leadership laboratory, and actual authority lies with the senior members in charge.

Many seniors, including CCs and CDCs, forget this as well.

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CapStranger
Recruit

Posts: 10

« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2019, 04:36:42 PM »

I am a C/CMSgt and I serve as the leadership officer, supplies, and activities.
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C/2dLt
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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2019, 04:55:09 PM »

I am a C/CMSgt and I serve as the leadership officer, supplies, and activities.

Without putting too fine a point on the structure issues in your unit, Cadet Leadership Officer is indicated
for Cadet Officers, not NCOs.  If you want to make credible arguments with your Senior Members about proper grade for structure,
you have to live by those yourself.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Cadet_Staff_Handbook__Nov_16__Web_47474DD79B032.pdf
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Spam
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Posts: 1,386
Unit: GA-090

« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2019, 06:15:44 PM »


Seconded, here.

The "legal" authorization for who does what (Personnel authorizations and descriptions) are available in CAPR 20-1, (Org of CAP). See pages 50 - 53 for some good detail there for cadets, including grade allocations.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R_020001I_2_Jan_13_ICL_17_Nov_15_IC_AF3D3687D1D1D.pdf

Noted therein, the Cadet Commander does NOT assign duties, but rather makes recommendations to the (SM) Commander, who does.
See CAPR 20-1 2 JANUARY 2013 p.50:

"Cadet Commander
Suggested cadet grades: C/Maj through C/Col
Commands the cadet squadron and performs duties related to cadet positions. They shall:
"... Make personnel assignment recommendations".

and p. 28/29,
Squadron Commander... "They shall:
... Select personnel to fill authorized staff positions and remove from staff position those members deemed unqualified or otherwise unsuitable to continue in their positions"


So, when you state, " staff can not accept these regulations and will not fix this issue", I think you (and they?) may be under the impression that its their job to fix it. It is the Squadron Commanders job per R20-1 to monitor and correct noncompliant situations. I may suggest that you assemble a short, respectful set of recommendations, citing this relevant Regulation (and the helpful handbook citations provided here by our other teammates) and submit it to your Squadron Commander directly. Be polite. Do not include personal attacks. You might consider suggesting that you did this as a portion of your self-study as you progress through the leadership readings, as you prepare yourself for future duties (which, really, you are, or you wouldn't be asking or caring about these issues).


R/s
Spam

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