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Author Topic: Encampment policy reminders - 2019  (Read 3355 times)
Eclipse
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« on: July 10, 2019, 05:14:51 PM »

Sources:
Encampment Guide:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Encampment_Guide_2017_D02F6386A8BEF.pdf

CAPR 60-1:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAPR_601__Cadet_Program_Management__36D2A228D5925.pdf

Based on any number of comments and conversations I've had recently here, elsewhere, and IRL, it
appears that many encampment staff and participants need the below (and other) reminders.

IMHO, any and all staff and cadre should be more then familiar with the above.

The TL;DR summary...

Terminology (Page 3):
Participant cadets are "Students"
Staff cadets are "Cadre"
Adult flight chaperones are "Training Officers"

Organization (Page 16-20, with an emphasis on 20):
There are specific staff roles and titles, a number of which have changed
with specific reasoning (Ex: the is no C/XO, instead there are two peer C/CDs).

Adult to cadet ratio (Page 16):
Minimum 1 per flight, must be full-time

Watches (Page 11):
Cadets keep their watches

Temporary / made-up / removing cadet grade (60-1 Page 23):
Not allowed.

Firewatch (Page 9):
Only seniors do firewatch.

Required sleep (Page 9):
8.5 for students
8 for Cadre

Personal time (Page 9):
30 minutes before lights out for students

Airport Pickup (R60-2, Page 10):
Cadets flying commercial to any CAP activity must be met at the airport.

Swarming (Page 10):
Not allowed.  Cadets and parents are to be "warmly greeted".

RST (Page 10):
Required for all Senior staff and Cadre for all encampments and NCSAs,
must be repeated for each activity, respectively.

Exit times (Page 12):
All cadets must have their sign-out times noted.

I'm probably missing a few, Seniors and Cadets can be very creative in ignoring CAP regs and policies.
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NIN
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 05:58:32 PM »

"But... but... That's not the way we've always done it!"
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Fester
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 04:22:41 AM »

"But... but... That's not the way we've always done it!"

Maybe a way to fix that is to have a required training with a member of NHQ Cadet Programs staff, each Wing CC, each Wing CP Director and the Encampment Commander prior to the start of Encampment Season.  Training can be done via teleconference.
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1stLt, CAP
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2019, 05:19:16 PM »

Seniors and Cadets can be very creative in ignoring CAP regs and policies.

Isn't that the truth...  :-\
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CAPDepCom
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2019, 05:28:58 PM »

"But... but... That's not the way we've always done it!"

Maybe a way to fix that is to have a required training with a member of NHQ Cadet Programs staff, each Wing CC, each Wing CP Director and the Encampment Commander prior to the start of Encampment Season.  Training can be done via teleconference.

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Having just experienced my first encampment, I couldn't agree more.  Was totally in the dark on how the whole thing was structured, what was expected for TOs by the encampment staff, and so on.  Did not have clear picture of anything other than when I was to be there and when I was going home.  Before someone asks why I didn't inquire beforehand -- I did.  Emails were either not seen or forgotten by those of whom I asked the questions.  I knew no one among senior members who had been a TO at previous encampments to ask.  My personal feeling is each Wing and/or Region needs to have an encampment manual for TOs to refer to before and during encampment.  Training for TOs during pre-encampment needs to be a comprehensive class, not a briefing.  Having a training class via teleconference is a good idea, but may not be practical for every TO given time restraints due to work and so on.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2019, 05:37:40 PM »

Agree 100% - your questions should have been answered during RST, if nothing else.

No one should go into something as complex and structured as an encampment without knowing
at least the basic expectations.

This is clearly what leads to some of the issues.
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Ned
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2019, 05:49:30 PM »


Having just experienced my first encampment, I couldn't agree more.  Was totally in the dark on how the whole thing was structured, what was expected for TOs by the encampment staff, and so on.  Did not have clear picture of anything other than when I was to be there and when I was going home.

Did anyone refer you to the encampment guidance in CAPP 60-70?

 ("the CAP Encampment Guide")  It has an overview of the program, as well as specific expectations for TOs.


The document was meant to help answer the questions you asked of your encampment colleagues.

I know California, at least, works very hard to make sure their TOs are comfortable and experienced in their role as trainers / mentors.  Typically they ask a prospective TO to serve as an assistant TO for a flight under the guidance on an experienced TO for at least one year.  They have a fairly comprehensive chaper on TO duties and responsibilites in their Encampment Training Manual, but that is currently unavailable as they are revising other parts of that terrific resource.  Watch for it to be re-published soon.  California also has a Chief Training Officer at the encampment who is specifically charged with providing new TOs some additional training and orientation.


NHQ/CP is currently developing some webinars on encampment intenstity which is an important topic for all seniors at encampment, particularly TOs.  But as important as intensity training can be, it is only a part of the TO's role at our encampment.


What other materials would you suggest we develop and offer?


Ned Lee

National CP Manager
(Whose favorite job at encampment is TO, which I've had the pleasure of doing nearly two dozen times.)
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Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2019, 05:57:21 PM »

NHQ doesn't need to create more curriculum and materials, it simply needs to enforce what is in place.
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CAPDepCom
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2019, 07:29:53 PM »

Did anyone refer you to the encampment guidance in CAPP 60-70?

Not that I recall.  If I missed it, then my bad.

("the CAP Encampment Guide")  It has an overview of the program, as well as specific expectations for TOs.

That would have been incredibly helpful to read beforehand, print out, and have while there.  It would have kept me from taking the time of others with newbie questions, for certain.

NHQ/CP is currently developing some webinars on encampment intenstity which is an important topic for all seniors at encampment, particularly TOs.  But as important as intensity training can be, it is only a part of the TO's role at our encampment.

Sounds like a good plan.

What other materials would you suggest we develop and offer?

I will read CAPP 60-70 and get back to you.  Or not get back to you if what I see in there seems complete on a national level.  It's possible that there are refinements which could be made at the Wing level for my location.  From what I learned via TOs who had been at at least another encampment through another Wing, I know that there were definitely differences in how things were administrated and run at the encampment I attended.  According to them, the other encampment seemed to have a better way of handling certain operations.  From what they described, I have to agree with their assessment.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, sir.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 07:32:58 PM by CAPDepCom » Report to moderator   Logged
Fester
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2019, 05:53:08 AM »


Having just experienced my first encampment, I couldn't agree more.  Was totally in the dark on how the whole thing was structured, what was expected for TOs by the encampment staff, and so on.  Did not have clear picture of anything other than when I was to be there and when I was going home.

Did anyone refer you to the encampment guidance in CAPP 60-70?

 ("the CAP Encampment Guide")  It has an overview of the program, as well as specific expectations for TOs.


The document was meant to help answer the questions you asked of your encampment colleagues.

I know California, at least, works very hard to make sure their TOs are comfortable and experienced in their role as trainers / mentors.  Typically they ask a prospective TO to serve as an assistant TO for a flight under the guidance on an experienced TO for at least one year.  They have a fairly comprehensive chaper on TO duties and responsibilites in their Encampment Training Manual, but that is currently unavailable as they are revising other parts of that terrific resource.  Watch for it to be re-published soon.  California also has a Chief Training Officer at the encampment who is specifically charged with providing new TOs some additional training and orientation.


NHQ/CP is currently developing some webinars on encampment intenstity which is an important topic for all seniors at encampment, particularly TOs.  But as important as intensity training can be, it is only a part of the TO's role at our encampment.


What other materials would you suggest we develop and offer?


Ned Lee

National CP Manager
(Whose favorite job at encampment is TO, which I've had the pleasure of doing nearly two dozen times.)

I don't think more material needs to be offered.  I think more training needs to be offered.  There is a plethora of fantastic information available, but for whatever reason, it seems like it's not making it's way all the way down to the worker bees.  Hence, my suggestion that a member of NHQ CP Staff should have a mandatory teleconference with representatives of each Wing prior to the next Encampment season, for example.  Including the Wing CC, the Wing DCP and the Encampment Commander.

And that recipe could be recycled for whatever else is not effectively being disseminated. 
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1stLt, CAP
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2019, 06:03:55 AM »


I agree with Fester. That courtesy contact should be early in the planning season (i.e. like 10 months out) to refresh expectations, reiterate policy, and to remind them of planning and organizational tool kits available to the activity commanders being selected and appointed.
 
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Ned
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2019, 04:05:08 PM »


I don't think more material needs to be offered.  I think more training needs to be offered.  There is a plethora of fantastic information available, but for whatever reason, it seems like it's not making it's way all the way down to the worker bees.  Hence, my suggestion that a member of NHQ CP Staff should have a mandatory teleconference with representatives of each Wing prior to the next Encampment season, for example.  Including the Wing CC, the Wing DCP and the Encampment Commander.

And that recipe could be recycled for whatever else is not effectively being disseminated.


Normally, I would think the Region CP shops would be the primary source for encampment-related guidance for the wings.  Beyond the simple span of control issues related to 45-ish encampment staff teleconferences with NHQ/CP, regions are the folks who are closest to the wings and have the best chance to observe the conditions on the ground  and work with the staffers.

We will be doing some webinars aimed at intensity and related issues, and these will be archived and available to anyone.  But that may run into the same "worker bee" issue you've mentioned.

Perhaps the best hope for help in this arena is the new encampment visitation program being rolled out in the new 60-1 and 60-2 that will strongly encourage wings to visit each others encampments to help spread best practices for one of our premier activities for cadets.  That may well help at the worker bee level.

We also try to address the worker bee issue through the CP PD track, which calls for lots of hands-on experience tempered with the review of the rules and regs.


But, like most people, I learned how to "encampment" by going to a half-dozen or so as a cadet, and then staying around to help after turning to the Dark Side.  I was lucky to be in a wing that emphasized their encampment program, and enjoyed some great mentors and trainers.


Hopefully every wing will be able to offer quality encampments.  Almost all of them already do.


Ned Lee
National CP Manager


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Fester
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2019, 05:03:06 AM »


I don't think more material needs to be offered.  I think more training needs to be offered.  There is a plethora of fantastic information available, but for whatever reason, it seems like it's not making it's way all the way down to the worker bees.  Hence, my suggestion that a member of NHQ CP Staff should have a mandatory teleconference with representatives of each Wing prior to the next Encampment season, for example.  Including the Wing CC, the Wing DCP and the Encampment Commander.

And that recipe could be recycled for whatever else is not effectively being disseminated.


Normally, I would think the Region CP shops would be the primary source for encampment-related guidance for the wings.  Beyond the simple span of control issues related to 45-ish encampment staff teleconferences with NHQ/CP, regions are the folks who are closest to the wings and have the best chance to observe the conditions on the ground  and work with the staffers.

We will be doing some webinars aimed at intensity and related issues, and these will be archived and available to anyone.  But that may run into the same "worker bee" issue you've mentioned.

Perhaps the best hope for help in this arena is the new encampment visitation program being rolled out in the new 60-1 and 60-2 that will strongly encourage wings to visit each others encampments to help spread best practices for one of our premier activities for cadets.  That may well help at the worker bee level.

We also try to address the worker bee issue through the CP PD track, which calls for lots of hands-on experience tempered with the review of the rules and regs.


But, like most people, I learned how to "encampment" by going to a half-dozen or so as a cadet, and then staying around to help after turning to the Dark Side.  I was lucky to be in a wing that emphasized their encampment program, and enjoyed some great mentors and trainers.


Hopefully every wing will be able to offer quality encampments.  Almost all of them already do.


Ned Lee
National CP Manager

The CP PD track has become FAR too cumbersome.  I have 10 new Senior Members in the last 2 months.  All parents of cadets, all who want to focus on improving our CP.  When I held a meeting about PD to show them potential PD tracks, not a single one wanted to pursue a CP PD Track because of the EXTENSIVE list of tasks compared to other tracks.
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1stLt, CAP
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Ned
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2019, 07:04:30 PM »

The CP PD track has become FAR too cumbersome.  I have 10 new Senior Members in the last 2 months.  All parents of cadets, all who want to focus on improving our CP.  When I held a meeting about PD to show them potential PD tracks, not a single one wanted to pursue a CP PD Track because of the EXTENSIVE list of tasks compared to other tracks.

Good feedback.  We certainly worked very hard to make the CP PD track “eminently do-able” during the revision that hit the streets a couple years ago.  But perhaps we missed the mark.

Could you be more specific?  Which of the 13 listed tasks do technicians, for example, not need?  Our theory is that the average member could achieve their technician rating fairly easily in 6 months (25 ish meetings), with the possible exception of competing the TLC basic course.  Which does kind of depend on availability.

Maybe the CP PD program needs its own thread, but above you said we needed to offer more training for encampment stuff, but in your most recent post seemed to indicate that the CP PD track was too much training.

Help me to understand the difference.

Ned Lee
National CP Manager
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Fester
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2019, 05:41:01 AM »

The CP PD track has become FAR too cumbersome.  I have 10 new Senior Members in the last 2 months.  All parents of cadets, all who want to focus on improving our CP.  When I held a meeting about PD to show them potential PD tracks, not a single one wanted to pursue a CP PD Track because of the EXTENSIVE list of tasks compared to other tracks.

Good feedback.  We certainly worked very hard to make the CP PD track “eminently do-able” during the revision that hit the streets a couple years ago.  But perhaps we missed the mark.

Could you be more specific?  Which of the 13 listed tasks do technicians, for example, not need?  Our theory is that the average member could achieve their technician rating fairly easily in 6 months (25 ish meetings), with the possible exception of competing the TLC basic course.  Which does kind of depend on availability.

Maybe the CP PD program needs its own thread, but above you said we needed to offer more training for encampment stuff, but in your most recent post seemed to indicate that the CP PD track was too much training.

Help me to understand the difference.

Ned Lee
National CP Manager

I think you're comparing apples to oranges, sir. 

The suggestion I made about teleconferences between NHQ (or Region, as you said) CP with Wing level staff for Encampments could easily be completed in a short time span... an hour, perhaps.  Just to review the most important aspects of the new(ish) standardized requirements for Encampments.

I'm not sure which aspects of the PD track my members find cumbersome at the Technician level.  I'll try to gather that info and provide it.  My biggest uneducated (since I haven't asked) guess is that the 13 tasks are quite time consuming and maybe the fact that the Specialty Track guide itself is 70 pages long....???

I will say, however, that during the feedback time provided to the field for the new guide last year, I expressed that the Senior level requirement for an Encampment would put, for me at least, that rating beyond my reach.  Due to my career, taking a week off is undoable.  And I would imagine that I'm not the only member who would love to pursue that rating but is unable to simply because of that one required task.  Yeah, I know the response.... it doesn't require a full week, only 20 contact hours.  But how can I staff an Encampment for only 2 to 3 days and then bail?  Applied to do just that last year and was told that I would need to staff the entire week.

But I will give you this.... you asked which of the 13 listed tasks do technicians not need.  I don't see any that I would chop.
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1stLt, CAP
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2019, 06:50:47 AM »




But how can I staff an Encampment for only 2 to 3 days and then bail?  Applied to do just that last year and was told that I would need to staff the entire week.

Maybe a disconnect in there? If one aspect of the program (PD) requires the 20 hours, but another (CP) doesn’t provide the means (the ONLY means) to accomplish it, then there seems to be a need for a “meeting of the minds.”

I have staffed many encampments, have commanded one and have been a “part timer” at three. By part-time, I mean being there at the beginning to help get it launched, bring st the end to help get it saddled up and moved out, and being there for 3 days, leaving for a couple of days and returning for the end. Nobody ever refused my help. As an Encampment Commander, I never turned anyone away who volunteered to help either.

However - I fully understood that my part timer status would not allow me to hold down a serious position. It would be disruptive to be introduced as a TO and then leave after two days. And coming in at the middle wouldn’t allow me to dethrone anyone. It went without saying that I or anyone else in the same circumstance would pick up odds and ends, run errands, cover for people for short periods, answer the phone, process admin matters, etc.

About the only reasons I could see for turning anyone away as a part-timer would be logistical (literally no beds left) or in planning (just showing up without asking and therefore unprepared to perform needed tasks).



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SarDragon
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2019, 02:09:04 PM »

I think you're comparing apples to oranges, sir. 

The suggestion I made about teleconferences between NHQ (or Region, as you said) CP with Wing level staff for Encampments could easily be completed in a short time span... an hour, perhaps.  Just to review the most important aspects of the new(ish) standardized requirements for Encampments.

I'm not sure which aspects of the PD track my members find cumbersome at the Technician level.  I'll try to gather that info and provide it.  My biggest uneducated (since I haven't asked) guess is that the 13 tasks are quite time consuming and maybe the fact that the Specialty Track guide itself is 70 pages long.... ???


I will say, however, that during the feedback time provided to the field for the new guide last year, I expressed that the Senior level requirement for an Encampment would put, for me at least, that rating beyond my reach.  Due to my career, taking a week off is undoable.  And I would imagine that I'm not the only member who would love to pursue that rating but is unable to simply because of that one required task.  Yeah, I know the response.... it doesn't require a full week, only 20 contact hours.  But how can I staff an Encampment for only 2 to 3 days and then bail?  Applied to do just that last year and was told that I would need to staff the entire week.

But I will give you this.... you asked which of the 13 listed tasks do technicians not need.  I don't see any that I would chop.
I just looked at the new CP pamphlet. Yes, it certainly has 70 pages. Let's break that down:
8 pdf pages - intro
52 pages - how to, covering entire program; split three ways - about 17 pages per level
2 pages - tech tasks
2 pages - senior tasks
1.5 pages - master tasks
remainder - lacking meaningful content

So there are really only about 27 pages for a member to master for a tech rating. Accomplishing the 13 tasks in a 6 month period doesn't seem difficult, except, as noted above, the TLC course.

More later. I'm traveling right now.
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Dave Bowles
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Paul Creed III
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2019, 04:11:11 PM »

So there are really only about 27 pages for a member to master for a tech rating. Accomplishing the 13 tasks in a 6 month period doesn't seem difficult, except, as noted above, the TLC course.

More later. I'm traveling right now.

TLC Basic is available online from COWG. The course being taught online is fully approved by NHQ CP (per a direct conversation I had with Curt).

http://cowgreg.org/cgi-bin/event_sign.cgi
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Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2019, 05:19:14 PM »

Is this a video conference type situation?
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Paul Creed III
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2019, 12:39:05 AM »

Is this a video conference type situation?

I believe it is synchronous video, yes.
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Fester
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2019, 01:07:25 AM »

An online course on a Saturday is awesome for most.  Would love to attend this as I do need TLC Basic.  Only problem: I work every Saturday.
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2019, 01:49:49 AM »

CAWG just did a weekday TLC for the folks who don't have weekends available.
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Eagle11
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2019, 02:15:12 AM »

It would be nice if NHQ Cadet Programs would communicate more and tell the rest of the wings that this option is available. I was the course director for the first TLC Basic Course taught in my wing and I had no idea that option was available.
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CAP9907
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2019, 02:24:25 AM »

CAWG just did a weekday TLC for the folks who don't have weekends available.


My Region/Wing offers weekday, weekend, multiple weekend courses, 4 times a year.

And I still get folks saying "it's not convenient to me"...

As with most things, if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to make it happen without me holding the class in your front yard on your random day-off.

~9907
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2019, 02:37:39 AM »

It would be nice if NHQ Cadet Programs would communicate more and tell the rest of the wings that this option is available. I was the course director for the first TLC Basic Course taught in my wing and I had no idea that option was available.

For the most part any PD can be taught / stretched / adapted to any schedule the Wing sees fit as long as the
hours and requirements are met.
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PHall
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2019, 05:53:43 AM »

CAWG just did a weekday TLC for the folks who don't have weekends available.


My Region/Wing offers weekday, weekend, multiple weekend courses, 4 times a year.

And I still get folks saying "it's not convenient to me"...

As with most things, if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to make it happen without me holding the class in your front yard on your random day-off.

~9907

Yeah, the one guy the whole course was arranged for pulled a no show. He said he had to work...
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Fester
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2019, 06:18:00 AM »

CAWG just did a weekday TLC for the folks who don't have weekends available.


My Region/Wing offers weekday, weekend, multiple weekend courses, 4 times a year.

And I still get folks saying "it's not convenient to me"...

As with most things, if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to make it happen without me holding the class in your front yard on your random day-off.

~9907

Or NHQ could start offering these courses online with no set requirement for a certain date and time.  If I can get a college degree online on my "random" schedule, why the heck can't I do PD courses on my own "random" schedule?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2019, 10:56:00 AM »

Because the primary value of these courses,
especially TLC is the discussion among peers.
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Paul Creed III
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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2019, 12:18:22 PM »

It would be nice if NHQ Cadet Programs would communicate more and tell the rest of the wings that this option is available. I was the course director for the first TLC Basic Course taught in my wing and I had no idea that option was available.

The request has been made to have the option posted to the NHQ website.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2019, 03:05:09 PM »

Just curious—what drove this post?
Since we're well into the Encampment season already.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2019, 03:28:50 PM »

Just curious—what drove this post?
Since we're well into the Encampment season already.

Based on any number of comments and conversations I've had recently here, elsewhere, and IRL, it
appears that many encampment staff and participants need the below (and other) reminders.

I'd say CAP is about mid-point on the encampment season, and honestly my hope was to
spur enough people to either be "reminded" or "informed" about what the rules and policies
actually are.

As I said based on any number of conversations and web posts in various places it's clear there
are still far too many encampments not complying with the above.  In some cases wit a bunch of those
rules, and then of course when you start asking the 2nd and 3rd questions things start really coming into focus.

In a lot of cases it's a cadet asking a seemingly innocuous question or commenting on something they did that
reveals it's stuff that isn't supposed to be happening, etc.

Not to mention a few of those things apply to all activities of 4 nights duration, but because it doesn't
say the word "encampment" on the door, activity directors ignore the regs.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2019, 05:17:30 PM »

No disagreement.

I was curious if you were seeing something out there indicating systemic non-compliance with Encampment planning.
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PHall
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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2019, 06:53:32 PM »

Just curious—what drove this post?
Since we're well into the Encampment season already.

Based on any number of comments and conversations I've had recently here, elsewhere, and IRL, it
appears that many encampment staff and participants need the below (and other) reminders.

I'd say CAP is about mid-point on the encampment season, and honestly my hope was to
spur enough people to either be "reminded" or "informed" about what the rules and policies
actually are.

As I said based on any number of conversations and web posts in various places it's clear there
are still far too many encampments not complying with the above.  In some cases wit a bunch of those
rules, and then of course when you start asking the 2nd and 3rd questions things start really coming into focus.

In a lot of cases it's a cadet asking a seemingly innocuous question or commenting on something they did that
reveals it's stuff that isn't supposed to be happening, etc.

Not to mention a few of those things apply to all activities of 4 nights duration, but because it doesn't
say the word "encampment" on the door, activity directors ignore the regs.

Which is why National has been sending "visitors" out to see if they're being followed.
There have been some notable examples of some wings not complying with the "new" (over two years old now) rules in the past year.
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Fester
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« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2019, 10:11:09 PM »

Because the primary value of these courses,
especially TLC is the discussion among peers.

Online college courses I've taken have included mandatory discussion boards just for this purpose.  So, I ask again, if I can obtain a college degree totally online on my own schedule (meeting set deadlines, of course) why can't I take a simple CAP course on the same random schedule? 
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1stLt, CAP
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« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2019, 10:44:39 PM »

Sorry, not even remotely the same thing.
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Fester
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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2019, 10:58:05 PM »

Sorry, not even remotely the same thing.

And what's the difference?
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SarDragon
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« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2019, 02:32:55 AM »

Most college courses do not rely on class member interaction as a significant part of the class.

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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2019, 03:04:21 AM »

Most college courses do not rely on class member interaction as a significant part of the class.

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Hmmm.  I remember otherwise for several courses.  Sociology, Psychology, Art to name just a few.
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1stLt, CAP
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« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2019, 03:24:53 AM »

There have been some notable examples of some wings not complying with the "new" (over two years old now) rules in the past year.

"Two"? How about more like "eight"?

A significant number of cadets and seniors have joined and left CAP in that time
never exposed to the "old" curriculum, yet the wives tales and olde schoole ways persist.



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Toad1168
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« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2019, 02:20:26 PM »

There have been some notable examples of some wings not complying with the "new" (over two years old now) rules in the past year.

"Two"? How about more like "eight"?

A significant number of cadets and seniors have joined and left CAP in that time
never exposed to the "old" curriculum, yet the wives tales and olde schoole ways persist.

Old habits die hard.  Cadets pass down "the way its always been" from year to year and the cycle never breaks.  Unfortunately, most senior members who get involved in cadet programs, although well intentioned, do not take the time to read and understand the regs.  Then, they sit silently while the bad, and many times against regulations, behaviours continue instead of speaking up. If they do, many times they are ignored, so they do not return.

It takes dedicated CPOs to read the regs, enforce them, and break the cycle.  Unfortunately, its harder to retrain behaviour than it is to teach it initially.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2019, 05:50:07 PM »

There have been some notable examples of some wings not complying with the "new" (over two years old now) rules in the past year.

"Two"? How about more like "eight"?

A significant number of cadets and seniors have joined and left CAP in that time
never exposed to the "old" curriculum, yet the wives tales and olde schoole ways persist.

Old habits die hard.  Cadets pass down "the way its always been" from year to year and the cycle never breaks.  Unfortunately, most senior members who get involved in cadet programs, although well intentioned, do not take the time to read and understand the regs.  Then, they sit silently while the bad, and many times against regulations, behaviours continue instead of speaking up. If they do, many times they are ignored, so they do not return.

It takes dedicated CPOs to read the regs, enforce them, and break the cycle.  Unfortunately, its harder to retrain behaviour than it is to teach it initially.

The route we're taking with our Wing going into planning next year's Encampment is "The curriculum already exists, and that's what we should be following. We shouldn't have to deviate or restructure. If there is a reason to deviate, it needs to be a good one that actually makes logical sense and benefits everyone."

We've seen a lot of cadet staffs in the past trying to develop planning teams to fill the role of what squadron commanders and other cadet officers should already be doing. And it's a very big "Why?"
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Eclipse
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« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2019, 06:42:43 PM »

^ We get that every year, sometimes in the "we should have a...", etc., etc.

One of the things we try to get across is that every moment on the bench they spend
reinventing or adding wheels, is one less they have to do the actual job they are their for,
which is making better cadets.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2019, 07:22:45 PM »

^ We get that every year, sometimes in the "we should have a...", etc., etc.

One of the things we try to get across is that every moment on the bench they spend
reinventing or adding wheels, is one less they have to do the actual job they are their for,
which is making better cadets.

Exactly the Encampment-related topic of our last staff meeting.
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PHall
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« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2019, 12:26:28 AM »

There have been some notable examples of some wings not complying with the "new" (over two years old now) rules in the past year.

"Two"? How about more like "eight"?

A significant number of cadets and seniors have joined and left CAP in that time
never exposed to the "old" curriculum, yet the wives tales and olde schoole ways persist.

Old habits die hard.  Cadets pass down "the way its always been" from year to year and the cycle never breaks.  Unfortunately, most senior members who get involved in cadet programs, although well intentioned, do not take the time to read and understand the regs.  Then, they sit silently while the bad, and many times against regulations, behaviours continue instead of speaking up. If they do, many times they are ignored, so they do not return.

It takes dedicated CPOs to read the regs, enforce them, and break the cycle.  Unfortunately, its harder to retrain behaviour than it is to teach it initially.

Sounds like you're making excuses. It's simple, the rules changed, either comply or don't participate. It's that simple.
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Fubar
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« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2019, 05:25:30 AM »

Last year there was such a problem with encampments and NCSAs it warranted a letter from the National Vice Commander to all of the wings reminding them about appropriate intensity. This year I noted the push to cross-pollinate seniors across wings, although that too can suffer from self-nominated "experts" who cause more problems than they solve when visiting someone else's encampment. I'm not sure the program to have seniors visiting other wings had much success this summer or not.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2019, 09:29:31 PM »

Last year there was such a problem with encampments and NCSAs it warranted a letter from the National Vice Commander to all of the wings reminding them about appropriate intensity. This year I noted the push to cross-pollinate seniors across wings, although that too can suffer from self-nominated "experts" who cause more problems than they solve when visiting someone else's encampment. I'm not sure the program to have seniors visiting other wings had much success this summer or not.

Do you actually believe that the ones making the visits were “...self-nominated experts...”)?


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Fubar
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« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2019, 02:15:13 AM »

Do you actually believe that the ones making the visits were “...self-nominated experts...”)?

I don't recall a vetting process, just a call for volunteers.
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PHall
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« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2019, 03:41:20 AM »

Do you actually believe that the ones making the visits were “...self-nominated experts...”)?

I don't recall a vetting process, just a call for volunteers.

Volunteers who were then vetted.
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Fubar
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« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2019, 08:52:35 AM »

Volunteers who were then vetted.

That's better than I remember, so that's good. What was the vetting process?
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Encampment policy reminders - 2019
 


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