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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: MERITORIOUS SERVICE/COMMENDATION AWARD FOR AN O PILOT
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Mitchell 1969
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Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2019, 06:57:56 AM »



For your interest/humor I spent a few hours this pm trolling the net for MSA/Comm Comm award recipients. I found multiple Comm Comm awards for short term events not spanning several years. I just heard at our unit meeting this week that the Cadet Company Commanders at encampment are all going to get Wing Comm Comms.


Assuming you meant Squadron (Not Company) Commanders:

Where did they get the crystal ball to tell in advance that their performance will be at a level meriting an award of any sort? If they have actually announced that, they are WAY out of line.



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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2019, 01:39:52 PM »

You guys are correct the 120 is now on eservices.  However my plan is to do it on the old PDF as well as I can and then copy and paste it into the eservices form. 

Or, you could just follow the process.

For your interest/humor I spent a few hours this pm trolling the net for MSA/Comm Comm award recipients. I found multiple Comm Comm awards for short term events not spanning several years. I just heard at our unit meeting this week that the Cadet Company Commanders at encampment are all going to get Wing Comm Comms.

This needs to be addressed from a couple of vectors.

First, as Mitchell1969 mentioned, your reference to an encampment "company Commander" indicates you probably don't have a firm enough grasp on
the ways and hows of CAP yet.  No harm / no foul, but we are providing info on the practical reality of CAP decs, and ice skating uphill on this
might actually wind up getting the reverse of what you intended.

Second - there is no requirement that a Comm-Comm be awarded only for activities that span multiple years.  In fact quite the opposite,
but the actions decorated should have a scope that impacts a higher level then unit or Group.  That's why there are tiers to these things.
A group CC is free to award an ACH on his signature, but if he wants a Comm-Comm, he's got to convince the Wing CC the duty in question
had a greater effect (bear in mind, unit-focused activities and duties can certainly have larger-scale impact, as can someone assigned to
a unit doing an ADY would, etc., that's in the justification).

As to the specifics of cadets in positions of leadership or influence in large activities getting decorations...

Encampments, by design, are wing activities, and most garner participants from at least their Region,
if not nationally, thus the scope.  Same goes for NCSAs like NESA.

Cadet Executive staff and Cadre endure a competitive process for appointment, and in most wings, by the time
they reach the level of Cadet Commander, they have served multiple years of increasing responsibility.  I would hazard
that the Big-3 cadets at any given encampment, in most wings, are in the top-tier of a respective wing from an experience,
knowledge and ability standpoint in regards to the encampment program.

Further, a Cadet Company Commander Encampment Commander, along with their staff, has likely put in at least
6 months of meetings, conference calls, in-person training, and other activities in planning an encampment,
which would make them far above their peers and certainly worthy of decoration on at least the Wing level.

Lastly, comparing one person(s) decoration to another, especially when the duties aren't the same isn't cricket
and won't get you where you want to be on this.  CAP's award system is so subjective, proximity-based, and
inconsistent, that there is little to be done in comparison.  This is not unique to CAP by a long shot, being common
in both the military and private sector.  The reality is that if your office is outside the bosses, you're more likely to
get some chest candy then if the boss has never met you.

Your best bet is to take the advice, consider the scope and duty in that context, and get help with the
narrative and proper submission procedures for something like this for your region.
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Fester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 350

« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2019, 03:47:55 AM »

For what it's worth.... the path of Encampments I took as a cadet in the 90's.

1. Basic at a Type "B"
2. Basic at a Type "A"
3. Cadet PAO
4. Cadet XO
5. Cadet CV
6. Cadet CC

The year I was selected as Encampment Cadet Commander, I was also Wing CAC Chairman, had completed my Eaker achievement and was studying for the Spaatz, and was the Wing DCP's right hand in planning and running of all Wing Activities for Cadets.  In one of the largest Wings in the our organization.

I agree with Eclipse on the caliber of cadet that is selected as an Encampment Cadet Commander and on the amount of work that goes into serving in such a position.
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1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2019, 12:10:08 AM »

Gentlemen,

Apologies for using Company vs Squadron CO. Old Army habits die hard.

I should have been more clear. Our cadet Sqdn CO told us that the Cadet Encampment CO was going to put in all of the Encampment Squadron COs for Commanders Commendations if I heard him correctly.  My point was if approved by the Wing CO it would be for a  single week performance plus the prep mentioned above, not several years.

I have asked the O pilot for details on how many O flights he has flown by year if possible. I seem to recall he told me by phone he has had 2 each 100 flight ribbons but we were bouncing a lot of numbers around so I await the details of his log book research.

Spam I was on orders for Vietnam but graduated from flight school 2 days before the cease fire. I did not fly Loaches until 1980 when moved to MA and flew them with the MAARNG for 6 years. I flew them another 2 years 92-94 when I moved to my current home state. Around 95 they replaced them with 58s.  Active duty and ARNG flight service was 20+ years.

Those of you who have commented on what actions should be taken with O pilots who will not fly out of their area etc., you will not get an argument out of me.

 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2019, 02:21:30 AM »

I should have been more clear. Our cadet Sqdn CO told us that the Cadet Encampment CO was going to put in all of the Encampment Squadron COs for Commanders Commendations if I heard him correctly.  My point was if approved by the Wing CO it would be for a  single week performance plus the prep mentioned above, not several years.

And?  This is common and appropriate.

Lots of members do lots of things for "several years", that doesn't make them worthy of decoration, per se, unless
the duty can be shown to be distinct or in excess of their peers.

Unit CC's are certainly the most downtrodden, put upon members, who generally serve in what is essentially
a second full time job, and on the way out (assuming it's not behind a slammed door), they generally get a comm-comm.

I should have been more clear. Our cadet Sqdn CO told us that the Cadet Encampment CO was going to put in all of the Encampment Squadron COs for Commanders Commendations if I heard him correctly.  My point was if approved by the Wing CO it would be for a  single week performance plus the prep mentioned above, not several years.

And?  This is common and appropriate.

Lots of members do lots of things for "several years", that doesn't make them worthy of decoration, per se, unless
the duty can be shown to be distinct or in excess of their peers.

I have asked the O pilot for details on how many O flights he has flown by year if possible. I seem to recall he told me by phone he has had 2 each 100 flight ribbons but we were bouncing a lot of numbers around so I await the details of his log book research.

O-Flight ribbons and attachments are presented in clicks of 50 each.

He either has them or he doesn't, and the time to be figuring that out isn't when someone is making a case
for an advanced decoration.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, 200/10 years is 20 a year.  That's probably about average when you consider the
more active O-Ride pilots can knock out three rides at a time with 2 sorties a day.  That would mean he probably
flew 2-3 or so weekends a year, and this does not account for NCSAs and academies, and encampments where O-Pilots
might fly 20+ in a week.

Appreciated but hardly noteworthy.

There are pilots who fly an entire airplane (200+ hours) in a fiscal year.

My point in the above is not to trivialize or minimize appreciated service, but to point out legitimate responses
you will encounter upon submission.

Another issue - there has to be a reason he's the only one who will fly in the group (assuming that to be true),
and while we don't and can't know the circumstances, certainly the Wing and Region will, and it's likely
a point of contention, whatever the issue is.  I know if any groups in my wing had a single o-ride pilot for
10 years, either he'd be getting his decs from on high, or it's be a point of contention every commander's call.

OHWG is a big wing with a lot of NHQ access, I don't see how the scenario you are presenting is possible.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 02:34:17 AM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


Fester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 350

« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2019, 06:29:08 AM »

Gentlemen,

Apologies for using Company vs Squadron CO. Old Army habits die hard.

I should have been more clear. Our cadet Sqdn CO told us that the Cadet Encampment CO was going to put in all of the Encampment Squadron COs for Commanders Commendations if I heard him correctly.  My point was if approved by the Wing CO it would be for a  single week performance plus the prep mentioned above, not several years.

I have asked the O pilot for details on how many O flights he has flown by year if possible. I seem to recall he told me by phone he has had 2 each 100 flight ribbons but we were bouncing a lot of numbers around so I await the details of his log book research.

Spam I was on orders for Vietnam but graduated from flight school 2 days before the cease fire. I did not fly Loaches until 1980 when moved to MA and flew them with the MAARNG for 6 years. I flew them another 2 years 92-94 when I moved to my current home state. Around 95 they replaced them with 58s.  Active duty and ARNG flight service was 20+ years.

Those of you who have commented on what actions should be taken with O pilots who will not fly out of their area etc., you will not get an argument out of me.

Not to beat a dead horse, but CAP doesn't have CO's.  They're CC's.  :)

I still take serious issue with him being the only O Ride pilot that is willing to fly for units other than his own.  If that's true, I think your focus should be more on sending that up the chain to your Group CC and then Wing CC to find out why aircraft are still assigned to units  with pilots who are unwilling to share the benefits of those aircraft with other units that likely don't have an aircraft.
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1stLt, CAP
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Recruit

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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2019, 04:38:47 AM »

Below is a copy of the 120 submitted via eservices on 8/1/19.

On a related topic I hand delivered a package for Air Force Sergeants Association Cadet of the Year for one of our cadets due to Group on 1/15. It could not be done on eservices due to size of the attachments--photos of the cadet, letters of recommendation etc. etc. Our cadet did not get it at a Wing Conference in the spring, and neither did any other cadet. Forgive my Army experience but any award recommendation there got a response. A prior post said I should get a response. Are any of you aware of CAP SOP or anything in 39-3 that mandates a response to an award recommendation? I could find nothing on that topic but maybe I missed it if something is there. By the way when I ask my unit commander what happened the response is a shrug of the shoulders and something like "I don't know".

Thanks to all of you for your help.

OH6 PILOT

__________________________________________________________________________ _____________


Capt.     of the   Region,  Wing, Group , Squadron  distinguished himself  in the performance of outstanding  meritorious service to Civil Air Patrol as the Group  Orientation Pilot Coordinator from January 2016 through the present time.

During this period, Capt. performed his duties as Orientation Pilot Coordinator in an exemplary manner that reflects highly upon himself, Squadron  and the Civil Air Patrol.

Since he began flying Orientation flights on 9/28/2013, Capt.  has flown 277 flights for our cadets as of 7/21/2019. He has been the coordinator for all Group 4 Orientation flights since January of 2016.

While serving as the coordinator he has organized flights for the entire Group in an effective manner allowing units plenty of lead time to fill available slots for flights. This has resulted in maximum possible participation by our cadets and efficient use of aircraft. He has taken the extra time and initiative to try to reschedule flights that are weathered out, of which there have been a high number over the last 2 years. As a result he consistently flies Orientation flights 2 weekends per month when planes are available. He is willing to fly for any of the 8 Squadrons in our Group. 

Capt.   , a teacher in his civilian profession, takes the time to do a thorough preflight with cadets. He explains components of the plane and the instrument panel. He consistently demonstrates the highest level of professionalism, safety awareness, and piloting skill to our members. Our cadets and their parents have the highest regard for him. As a result this reputation has encouraged new members to take advantage of the Orientation Flight program. It has also motivated cadets who stopped flying Orientation flights to start flying again.  I have heard the same evaluation from at least 2 other Squadrons in our Group, which strongly suggests the same is true for all units in our organization. This reputation has no doubt had the impact of increasing Orientation flight participation for other units in addition to ours.

An excellent example of Capt.   dedication to duty is his willingness to try to complete 5 O flights for 1 of our cadets (610) approaching his 18th birthday on 8/1/19 that we have tried to get completed since January of this year. Due mostly to weather cancellations he was not completed by Capt.  until 7/21/19 after 3 weather cancellations from 6/18-7/18/19. He completed the 5th flight for another cadet (574) on 5/27/19 with about 6 weeks to spare, also after many weather delays.  He has consistently driven several extra hours to reach planes when the one at his home station was not available. Since 5/27/19 he has scheduled 7 flights for us of which 4 were not weathered out. Most of these involved trying to get the 2 soon to be 18 year old cadets completed along with other various cadets.  This duty performance is typical of his initiative, dedication, enthusiasm, keen personal interest and tireless efforts to strongly support the Orientation flight program and is outstanding and exceptional when compared to the accomplishments of members of similar rank and responsibility. 

The time he has spent personally flying Orientation flights, managing the Orientation flight program for the Group, adjusting schedules for both routine and soon to turn 18 cadet situations, adapting to plane shortages, and setting an exemplary example of duty performance for someone in his position are all clearly outstanding and exceptional.

Capt.  exemplary performance of duty reflects great credit upon himself, Squadron , Group ,  Wing, the  and the Civil Air Patrol.
     
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Eclipse
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2019, 04:46:25 AM »

Are any of you aware of CAP SOP or anything in 39-3 that mandates a response to an award recommendation?

There is no time or response mandate for decorations.  In most cases, the submitter knows when an OTY award is received (or denied),
when the winner is announced.

Presumably you are speaking of the awards higher then the unit, as each unit is provided with an AFA and AFSA award package each year
to present as they see fit.

With no further comment to the specific dec above, any good Unit CC should be aware of the timing of his Group and Wing award committees
and be able to find out with a phone call or email the status of something he submits.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 06:29:46 AM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


Fester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 350

« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2019, 05:38:01 AM »


On a related topic I hand delivered a package for Air Force Sergeants Association Cadet of the Year for one of our cadets due to Group on 1/15. It could not be done on eservices due to size of the attachments--photos of the cadet, letters of recommendation etc. etc. Our cadet did not get it at a Wing Conference in the spring, and neither did any other cadet. Forgive my Army experience but any award recommendation there got a response. A prior post said I should get a response. Are any of you aware of CAP SOP or anything in 39-3 that mandates a response to an award recommendation? I could find nothing on that topic but maybe I missed it if something is there. By the way when I ask my unit commander what happened the response is a shrug of the shoulders and something like "I don't know".


According to CAPR 39-3, none of the AFSA awards need to be sent to Group or Wing.  They are sent directly to AFSA.
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1stLt, CAP
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GroundHawg
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2019, 02:21:20 PM »

AFA and AFSA and any other non wing level award has always been presented at squadron level in my experience.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2019, 02:34:34 PM »

They do award the AFSA award nationally, but that is separate from the unit award(s).

https://www.cap.news/outstanding-cap-achievers-saluted-at-national-conference/

AFSA Local: https://www.hqafsa.org/jrotc_capawards.html

AFA Local: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/aerospace-education/about-us/cap-ae-alliances/afa/what-does-the-afa-do-for-cap/afas-cap-outstanding-squadron-cadet-recognition

You can order them in advance so you have them, then send the recipients name to the respective org and get one for next year.
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arajca
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2019, 04:49:05 PM »

Are any of you aware of CAP SOP or anything in 39-3 that mandates a response to an award recommendation?

There is no time or response mandate for decorations.  In most cases, the submitter knows when an OTY award is received (or denied),
when the winner is announced.

Presumably you are speaking of the awards higher then the unit, as each unit is provided with an AFA and AFSA award package each year
to present as they see fit.

With no further comment to the specific dec above, any good Unit CC should be aware of the timing of his Group and Wing award committees
and be able to find out with a phone call or email the status of something he submits.
The submitter, providing they use Eservices for it, can check the progress, or lack thereof, in Eservices. Also if it's approved or denied.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2019, 04:56:29 PM »

The submitter, providing they use Eservices for it, can check the progress, or lack thereof, in Eservices. Also if it's approved or denied.

Just noticed the date submitted - 08/01, that's not enough time in CAP World for something like this to be considered, let alone approved.
MSA has to go to Region, assuming it ever gets there, figure at least 4-6 months as this works it's way through the four award committees,
some of which may not meet every month.

OH6 Pilot, do you know if it's even been approved at the unit yet?  If it was submitted via eservices, then the Personnel Officer would have gotten
notification, and if the Unit CC is saying "I dunno", it's probably still sitting there, pending the unit award committee.

Is this a person in your unit?
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2019, 08:31:38 PM »

Most awards committees especially at Echelons above the Squadron deliberate and review the F120 through email to facilitate the processing the award. Once itís approved, the delay is getting it to the individual.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
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Recruit

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« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2019, 01:49:27 AM »

The package I submitted was the AF Sergeants Assoc. COY National award, not local unit. It cannot be processed via eservices due to size limits on required documents plus the requirement to include color photos of the cadet, thereby requiring either color fax or US mail. Or personal delivery. It is due to Wing on 1/15 and National is supposed to decide by 4/15. Our Wing conference was after that date and no one got it. If Wing OKd it common sense suggests it would have been mentioned at the Wing Awards ceremony. The form used is not a 120, I am away from home and forget the number. This award appears in 39-3 in a place away from the other COY awards so it is easy to miss. It is not mentioned on our Wing site. My unit commander had never heard of it which causes me to suspect a lot of other squadrons in the Wing were also unaware of it. IAW Army SOP  for handling of sensitive documents I had the Wing admin officer sign for the package and I scanned that document when I got back home, so nobody is going to tell me it was lost. 

Per 39-3 Wing had to decide by I think 2/15. If correct we are rapidly approaching 6 months from that date and 4 months since National had to decide.   

When I get home on Friday I will post the exact 39-3 paragraph for this award.

If all else fails I can always email the ex Wing CO.
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Fester
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« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2019, 01:53:55 AM »

The package I submitted was the AF Sergeants Assoc. COY National award, not local unit. It cannot be processed via eservices due to size limits on required documents plus the requirement to include color photos of the cadet, thereby requiring either color fax or US mail. Or personal delivery. It is due to Wing on 1/15 and National is supposed to decide by 4/15. Our Wing conference was after that date and no one got it. If Wing OKd it common sense suggests it would have been mentioned at the Wing Awards ceremony. The form used is not a 120, I am away from home and forget the number. This award appears in 39-3 in a place away from the other COY awards so it is easy to miss. It is not mentioned on our Wing site. My unit commander had never heard of it which causes me to suspect a lot of other squadrons in the Wing were also unaware of it. IAW Army SOP  for handling of sensitive documents I had the Wing admin officer sign for the package and I scanned that document when I got back home, so nobody is going to tell me it was lost. 

Per 39-3 Wing had to decide by I think 2/15. If correct we are rapidly approaching 6 months from that date and 4 months since National had to decide.   

When I get home on Friday I will post the exact 39-3 paragraph for this award.

If all else fails I can always email the ex Wing CO.

Again, CAP does not have CO's, it has CC's. 

I'm sorry if you feel like this is beating a dead horse, but it truly seems you are struggling with "the CAP way" and really aren't paying attention to the good advice that is being given you.
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1stLt, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2019, 02:52:46 AM »

The package I submitted was the AF Sergeants Assoc. COY National award, not local unit. It cannot be processed via eservices due to size limits on required documents plus the requirement to include color photos of the cadet, thereby requiring either color fax or US mail. Or personal delivery. It is due to Wing on 1/15 and National is supposed to decide by 4/15. Our Wing conference was after that date and no one got it. If Wing OKd it common sense suggests it would have been mentioned at the Wing Awards ceremony. The form used is not a 120, I am away from home and forget the number. This award appears in 39-3 in a place away from the other COY awards so it is easy to miss. It is not mentioned on our Wing site. My unit commander had never heard of it which causes me to suspect a lot of other squadrons in the Wing were also unaware of it. IAW Army SOP  for handling of sensitive documents I had the Wing admin officer sign for the package and I scanned that document when I got back home, so nobody is going to tell me it was lost. 

Per 39-3 Wing had to decide by I think 2/15. If correct we are rapidly approaching 6 months from that date and 4 months since National had to decide.   

When I get home on Friday I will post the exact 39-3 paragraph for this award.

BLUF: This award is presented at the National Conference. If your cadet had received it, you would know it as he or she would
have been offered hotel accommodations to Baltimore. 

NHQ is not "required to decide" by 15 April, the NHQ Committee is required to present a single nomination by that date.
HEADCAP can take all the time he wants to decide, and occasionally by the time the conferences come around, the
nominee isn't a cadet any more.

It's submitted on a CAPF 58, https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/F058_D5CC76871226E.pdf (the F58
hasn't been updated since '87, and isn't on the current list of Forms, even though it's referenced in the reg),
and if you submitted a huge packet, it may well have been not considered because it was
an improper submission. At >most< it should be 9 or 10 pages, and that's if the cadet in question is old enough for
SAT's and college tests.  A high school age cadet is going to be about 6 pages max.

This is...checking...2019.  There is no such thing as an award nomination packet that is "too big for email",
at least not with modern email systems.

As a CC, if you handed me a huge pack of papers, the response you'd get would be "scan it and email it".
In fact, many wings have a very specific process for awards submission, few if any involve hand-carrying it to the WA.

You absolutely need to walk away from this Army stuff.  You may feel it's somehow relevent... it's not,
and there's a cringe factor whenever that sort of thing is waived about, both for the inference of relevent
experience where none exists, and for the actual issue of not having enough time in CAP to understand why it's not relevant.

Heck, most >Air Force< stuff like this isn't relevent, which drives many current and former USAF people crazy in similar situations.
CAP is it's own "thing", and you have to understand the cadence of not only a different service, but that everyone end-to-end
is a volunteer giving things 1/4 attention.

The blowback you're getting on this is because you have a number of experienced members trying to
give the the practical skinny on how this works, and you're insisting on falling back to irrelevant processes
from an unrelated service.

Few would argue whether CAP does it "right", that won't change how it does it.
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Fester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 350

« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2019, 05:27:33 AM »

It's a moot point anyway.  The AFSA Cadet of the Year Award was awarded this past weekend at the National Conference to:

Air Force Sergeants Association Cadet NCO of the Year
Cadet Chief Master Sgt. Ivy M. Denen
Idaho Wing

https://www.cap.news/national-awards-recognize-major-2018-accomplishments/
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1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
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Eaker - 1996
MSG Mac
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Posts: 2,071
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2019, 12:37:57 PM »

Back to the original question:

Submit your O-pilot for the award you feel he deserves. Make sure you document and back up the reasons he merits recognition. If the upper echelon doesnít agree, they may give him a CC or CA. But in the end youíve recognized someone who has gone above and beyond. Saying Thank You is something that is totally lacking in CAP.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
MSG Mac
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Posts: 2,071
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2019, 12:39:36 PM »

It's a moot point anyway.  The AFSA Cadet of the Year Award was awarded this past weekend at the National Conference to:

Air Force Sergeants Association Cadet NCO of the Year
Cadet Chief Master Sgt. Ivy M. Denen
Idaho Wing

https://www.cap.news/national-awards-recognize-major-2018-accomplishments/

You do know the AFSA gives awards at the Squadron and Wing levels too.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: MERITORIOUS SERVICE/COMMENDATION AWARD FOR AN O PILOT
 


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