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DocJekyll
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« on: June 22, 2019, 09:52:01 PM »

Hello all,

I have looked everywhere I can think, and haven't been able to find it, so I'm reaching out in the hope someone on here knows where it is:

Where would one find regulatory guidance on the protocols for classroom environments? When you call the room to attention/don't call to attention, what are the exceptions, etc.? If a class instructor invokes classroom protocol, is that overridden when certain command staff come in? Like Group CC or Wing CC (or higher)

I was told one thing but am aware it's been done other ways, and wish to do my due diligence if I'm going to quote something or change what I'm doing with regard for protocol.
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NIN
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2019, 10:07:16 PM »

This has generally been on a case by case, unit by unit basis.

Some units demand things like everybody at attention before taking seats, others have everybody pop to when the instructor enters, etc.

Big thing to remember, really, is that it's not appropriate to interrupt a block of instruction to call av room to attention. The focus is on the instruction, and no officer worth his or her salt would expect that.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2019, 10:26:27 PM »

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Respect_On_Display__CAPP_151_A1658A31B2A97.pdf

COMING TO ATTENTION
Key Principle
It is customary for all members to come to attention when the commander enters the room.

Finer Points

• If an officer who is higher ranking than anyone present enters the room, the first person to notice commands, “Room, ATTENTION.” If
only senior members or officers are present, the first to notice the commander uses the more cordial, “Ladies and gentlemen, the commander” instead.

• In a classroom, conference setting, or work environment, these customs are usually relaxed.
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etodd
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2019, 10:41:06 PM »

Still being a relative newbie in CAP as its just been 3 and 1/2 years ... how common is the “Room, ATTENTION.” thing in CAP at all, assuming we are talking about Senior meetings?  I've been to many meetings, SAREXs, Wing meetings and training sessions, and I have never seen it done. For that matter, I have yet to see a Senior salute another. (Do see all this with Cadets)  I'm assuming its a very regional thing maybe, or even varies widely by Squadrons?
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SarDragon
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2019, 10:50:38 PM »

Yell and stand is primarily a cadet thing. I see it once in a while at senior activities if it's something formal, but most of the time meetings are pretty laid back. When I was around cadet activities, I had a signal for the cadet leaders, so they wouldn't need to interrupt proceedings just because I was coming to observe.

As for saluting, it's generally only done in AF-style uniforms, so all the folks in corporates rarely have/get the opportunity. Again, it mostly occurs when there are cadets around, or during ceremonies.
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2019, 01:22:11 AM »

As for saluting, it's generally only done in AF-style uniforms, so all the folks in corporates rarely have/get the opportunity. Again, it mostly occurs when there are cadets around, or during ceremonies.

Disagree with both assertions, though your personal mileage may be different.

Full courtesies are expected regardless of uniform, including golf shirts.

If people don't do it properly, remind them nicely.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2019, 08:30:42 AM »

As for saluting, it's generally only done in AF-style uniforms, so all the folks in corporates rarely have/get the opportunity. Again, it mostly occurs when there are cadets around, or during ceremonies.

Disagree with both assertions, though your personal mileage may be different.

Full courtesies are expected regardless of uniform, including golf shirts.

If people don't do it properly, remind them nicely.

Yes, my mileage varies a bit. I learned - no hat, no salute. Since there is no prescribed hat for corporate uniforms, salutes are not required. Also, since there is no rank insignia worn on the polo shirt, wearers of that  uniform cannot be distinguished as officer or otherwise. Not all SMs rate a salute.
Aside from all that, where does it directly specify that salutes are exchanged in corporate uniforms? Just a paragraph number will do; you don't need to put a whle quote on here.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2019, 09:16:12 AM »

As for saluting, it's generally only done in AF-style uniforms, so all the folks in corporates rarely have/get the opportunity. Again, it mostly occurs when there are cadets around, or during ceremonies.

Disagree with both assertions, though your personal mileage may be different.

Full courtesies are expected regardless of uniform, including golf shirts.

If people don't do it properly, remind them nicely.

Yes, my mileage varies a bit. I learned - no hat, no salute. Since there is no prescribed hat for corporate uniforms, salutes are not required. Also, since there is no rank insignia worn on the polo shirt, wearers of that  uniform cannot be distinguished as officer or otherwise. Not all SMs rate a salute.
Aside from all that, where does it directly specify that salutes are exchanged in corporate uniforms? Just a paragraph number will do; you don't need to put a whle quote on here.

No hat, no salute is a thing in the sea services. Not so in the Army or the Air Force.


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NIN
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2019, 12:43:16 PM »

As for saluting, it's generally only done in AF-style uniforms, so all the folks in corporates rarely have/get the opportunity. Again, it mostly occurs when there are cadets around, or during ceremonies.

Disagree with both assertions, though your personal mileage may be different.

Full courtesies are expected regardless of uniform, including golf shirts.

If people don't do it properly, remind them nicely.

Yes, my mileage varies a bit. I learned - no hat, no salute. Since there is no prescribed hat for corporate uniforms, salutes are not required. Also, since there is no rank insignia worn on the polo shirt, wearers of that  uniform cannot be distinguished as officer or otherwise. Not all SMs rate a salute.
Aside from all that, where does it directly specify that salutes are exchanged in corporate uniforms? Just a paragraph number will do; you don't need to put a whle quote on here.

CAPP 151, page 3.
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LSThiker
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2019, 12:46:23 PM »

Salutes are exchanged only in the white aviator shirt, corporate flightsuit, and corporate field uniform.  Salutes are not exchanged in polo or blazer combinations:

Quote from: CAPP 151
For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).
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PHall
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2019, 03:24:28 PM »

Salutes are exchanged only in the white aviator shirt, corporate flightsuit, and corporate field uniform.  Salutes are not exchanged in polo or blazer combinations:

Quote from: CAPP 151
For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).

In other words, uniforms where grade insignia is worn. (Though there is grade insignia on the blazer nametag, but it's pretty small.)
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NovemberWhiskey
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2019, 03:54:09 PM »

No hat, no salute is a thing in the sea services. Not so in the Army or the Air Force.

OK, but generally no saluting indoors when also no hats ... also let us not forget that there's no saluting in mess dress.
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NIN
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2019, 04:11:26 PM »

Correct: _generally_ you do not exchange salutes indoors, except when reporting.

It is my understanding that the Navy and Marines don't salute when reporting, except when under arms (at which point, they generally have a hat on, which conforms to their "no hat, no salute. Hat, salute" rule)

But we follow the AF rule, which is pretty much "no saluting without a hat, except when reporting."
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Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2019, 04:22:42 PM »

OK, but generally no saluting indoors when also no hats ... also let us not forget that there's no saluting in mess dress.

Cite "no hats" in a CAP context.

"Pretty much" doesn't fly.

Is it irony how "important" this stuff is, except for 1/2 the adult leadership (arguably the ones doing the lion's share) supposedly doesn't get to play?

Or maybe the word I'm looking for is "hypocrisy"?

A butter bar with 15 minutes in gets saluted because he's got a hat on, but the National CC doesn't
because he's wearing the Realtor jacket?

Yeah, no.
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NovemberWhiskey
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2019, 04:28:52 PM »

Cite "no hats" in a CAP context.

I was saying that hats are not generally worn indoors, and there is also generally no saluting indoors. Hence, it is generally the case that one doesn't exchange salutes except when wearing a hat. I'm not saying it's a regulation, nor that is universally the case.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2019, 04:46:52 PM »

Q: Generally based on what?

A: A wives tale, probably propagated by people with a vested interest.

I can't begin to imagine any other reason one member would encourage another not to render a salute or courtesies
based on what they are wearing, and doubly for cadets, who should really be saluting every adult member (except for those
who have self-selected wearing grade-equivalence from another service).
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NovemberWhiskey
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2019, 05:01:16 PM »

Q: Generally based on what?

e.g. CAPP151 "Respect on Display" p. 5: "Indoors, salute officers only when formally reporting (ie: when called forward to receive an award)."?

It's unclear to me whether there is some no-salute cabal within CAP that concerns you; I'm not part of it, but I don't expect cadets to salute me indoors.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2019, 05:14:02 PM »

This isn't about "indoors" it's about the "no hat" nonsense.

Considering a hat isn't required for any corporate uniform, and 2 major variants don't have head gear,
that doesn't fly.

And yes there are members who will ignore a field grade officer in whites, even their CC, while at the same time dressing
down others for not saluting or acknowledging them.
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etodd
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2019, 06:54:56 PM »

What Squadron/ Wing follows all this to the letter. I’d like to visit sometime and see it all in action. Wing Commander walks in a room here and everyone just keeps chatting. My Wing is VERY casual.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2019, 07:18:14 PM »

This is my shocked face.
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JayT
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2019, 09:43:49 PM »

What Squadron/ Wing follows all this to the letter. I’d like to visit sometime and see it all in action. Wing Commander walks in a room here and everyone just keeps chatting. My Wing is VERY casual.

Rules concerning C&C is in sCAP151. It's a super secret pamphlet that has only been released to certain individuals. You understand.
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etodd
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2019, 09:55:08 PM »

What Squadron/ Wing follows all this to the letter. I’d like to visit sometime and see it all in action. Wing Commander walks in a room here and everyone just keeps chatting. My Wing is VERY casual.

Rules concerning C&C is in sCAP151. It's a super secret pamphlet that has only been released to certain individuals. You understand.

 ;D ;D ;D

Just another one of those times when its so obvious how wide the gulf is between Squadrons, Wings, and even Regions. Even under the same set of Regs, customs, and courtesies.

As someone on page 1 mentioned, the polo probably does have a lot to do with it. When 90% of the members in a setting are wearing it, then nobody knows who is what rank, and they just stop looking to see if they should stand at attention, salute, or whatever.  Habits are formed, and traditions lost.
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PHall
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« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2019, 03:32:18 AM »

What Squadron/ Wing follows all this to the letter. I’d like to visit sometime and see it all in action. Wing Commander walks in a room here and everyone just keeps chatting. My Wing is VERY casual.

My squadron does. Doesn't do any good to tell people that they need to follow the regs and then not enforce it.
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Brit_in_CAP
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2019, 03:48:45 PM »

Likewise.  Commander has his 'signal' for the cadets so to not interrupt instruction but that's it.
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Lakeshore-CAP-Ret
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« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2019, 10:11:06 PM »


Been involved with CAP for 28 years (recently retired, April 2018). My prior military experience included 25 years of service (8 years Navy, then 17 years ANG, 8 years  of which were as an Active Guard-Reservist).

Where to start?  It starts, top-down.  First, cadets take CAP for granted, until they have a meeting with their parents, and seniors, in a room, to explain in a very professional manner that due to the conduct of their teen, we have to let them go.  Obviously, the program is not for them. 

I've only had to do this twice as senior member since 1991.  Both times, the problem could have been prevented.  The Cadet Staff were not encouraged, nor trained, as to the need to keep control of the cadets.  Cadets pass tests and are promoted, even though they're not active, or attend special activities. 

Inexperienced squadron commanders, without military or civilian management experience, are afraid to do anything that would cause the squadron to fail. Seniors leave because they are ignored. Cadets are allowed to develop "clicks" and goof off (now would be a good time to have the leadership view 12 O’clock High https://youtu.be/nDXNQnD1UsU ) If the cadet commander can't/won't do his job, before you fire him, make sure they know what their job is. Encourage your squadron what good they do, and how they help their community, and the Air Force.

Like I said, I've only had to bring in parents twice in 28 years, regarding the behavior of their teens. Parents, unaware that their teen has been missing meetings and/or goofing off and causing trouble will either help you get your cadet back on track, or pull the cadet from the program.

I loved working with cadets.  Senior cadets who couldn't do the job, and given every opportunity to do so, including training, working with other squadrons or ask for help to send over their cadet commander and their staff to go over what is required (only ask from units that are doing a great job).  It's called leadership.  Try to get your cadets to participate in group and wing activities. Give out "Cadet Outstanding Awards" to deserving cadets, that can be used during promotion boards that can help them out if they're close and need an extra "push" to get promoted. Finally, if your group or wing doesn't participate in the VFW Cadet awards, ask permission from your group commander if the group could start one, then give out these awards during special ceremonies. The other fraternal military orders have the same thing (http://www.vfwnc.com/uploads/CivilAirPatrolBrochure.pdf ).

Teens won't leave if they know you care about them. Have a parents night to explain how CAP develops young adolescents into responsible teens ready to take on the challenge of college, vocation work, or the military. Show parents PowerPoint presentations of what the squadron has been doing. 

I wish more squadrons would put discipline and award performance more often.  Few teens join CAP, but the ones that do, are looking for something that their friends don't.  Cadets leave because they went online and after viewing all the things CAP offers, leave because the local squadron they visited, then joined, never came through with what they were promised by all the recruiting videos they watched.

Make CAP fun and exciting again. Throw in some competition, and your organization will grow.  BTW, I took the Commander's Course twice. I never wanted to be a commander due to my diagnosed health challenges, but I did want to be a help to the commander and the organization.  The Commander's Course, when executed by professional current and former commanders, really help the newly appointed commanders to do the job.

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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2019, 05:44:45 AM »


[Been involved with CAP for 28 years (recently retired, April 2018). My prior military experience included 25 years of service (8 years Navy, then 17 years ANG, 8 years  of which were as an Active Guard-

(LOTS OF TEXT DELETED HERE FOR BREVITY)

I never wanted to be a commander due to my diagnosed health challenges, but I did want to be a help to the commander and the organization.  The Commander's Course, when executed by professional current and former commanders, really help the newly appointed commanders to do the job.

Did you mean for this post to go to another topic? I’m not seeing the relevance to this one.



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CAP9907
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2019, 05:52:41 AM »

There is none, and we are done.

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