By my command

Started by Picy3, June 18, 2019, 12:27:55 am

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Picy3

Greetings,

So I've always been taught that the command "By my command" is used when a lower ranking cadet wants to take control of a flight (used by cadets lower ranking then whoever last called drill). (E.g. "By my command, left face") after the cadet says it once, it's not needed until another higher ranking cadet calls a command.

I never questioned this until I read the drill manual and didn't find any such command. Does it exist or is it just something that was put in (someone at my squadron mentioned it was possibly a misread "at my command" , used to revoke mass commands that kinda morphed into what we know as "by my command".).

This is just a question I've been interested in learning about and making sure we're doing stuff right so if anyone else has this and knows where it comes from that'd be great. Or just anything related to this.
Cadet Second Lieutenant who finally passed his Mitchell.

Rocketry badge, GTM3 badge, Solo Wings at a National Flight Academy, Encampment Cadre and two+ years of CAP in all its greatness.
DFAC - 2019 WRIII
Logistics - 2019 CFXXIV
Alpha Flight Commander - 2019 ACIV

NIN

That's an affectation some people somehow conflated from Mass Commands.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Dwight Dutton

Quote from: NIN on June 18, 2019, 01:19:27 am
That's an affectation some people somehow conflated from Mass Commands.


And you say "By Your Command" in a robot voice when you give it back.

Eclipse

Amazing what people find when they actually read the manual.



baronet68

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on June 18, 2019, 02:09:39 am
And you say "By Your Command" in a robot voice when you give it back.



Click here for a demonstration of the proper technique.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

SarDragon

Quote from: NIN on June 18, 2019, 01:19:27 am
That's an affectation some people somehow conflated from Mass Commands.


And I learned it as a cadet.

I just looked in my Leadership Lab (CAPM 50-3, Second Edition), and it's not in there, either.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Picy3

So question is: is it worth it to stop using it all together or to continue using it because it actually does make some sense and have a purpose?

I vote stop and go by regs but idk if that's just stuff that will be done like that no matter what.
Cadet Second Lieutenant who finally passed his Mitchell.

Rocketry badge, GTM3 badge, Solo Wings at a National Flight Academy, Encampment Cadre and two+ years of CAP in all its greatness.
DFAC - 2019 WRIII
Logistics - 2019 CFXXIV
Alpha Flight Commander - 2019 ACIV

lordmonar

The problem with "going by the regs" and ditching the practice is that the mis-use of the command started with the air force!

I fist herd "by my command" in USAF Basic Training at Lackland AFB in 1986.

As far as "oh this is wrong...we should not do it"   As a way of "unoffically" transferring drill leadership to a new leader....it works.

Since we don't use "by your command" very much (if at all)...I think I have maybe used it as a training aid all of five times in my 15 or so years in CAP. It is really just one of those things that I don't think we get to our pants into a wad about.

YMMV of course.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

NIN

June 18, 2019, 12:33:05 pm #8 Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:34:05 am by NIN
There are of course a couple ways to look at this.

I have always thought that "by my command" was a way of maintaining "unity of command." You are only taking instructions from one leader at a time, and it is made clear who is that leader is by specifying. Kind of like positive transfer of the flight controls. "I have the controls"

That's the same time, in the drill environment, cadets should be responding to the commands given, no matter which voice is giving them. It should be incumbent upon the leaders to avoid issuing conflicting instructions and confusing the subordinates with different commands given simultaneously by different people.

I'm sure there is something somewhere in that leadership text about drill and ceremonies teaching small-unit leadership, right? It is not just instruction for the people being led through the exercise, it is also training for the leaders.

In the 11 weeks I was under the close personal supervision and care of three kind, fine and refined gentlemen wearing the brown campaign hat of an Army Drill Sergeant, never once did I receive conflicting instructions from different leaders on the drill pad.  At the same time, if one of those gentlemen stopped giving commands and the other one started giving commands, there was absolutely no question whose instructions you were listening to: the last command given. We could have switched drill sergeants three times on the way to chow, for whatever reason, and it didn't matter to us. Follow the instructions you are being given. The leaders are the ones who should be sorting out who is in charge.

I see this a lot on the drill pad with cadets: a tendency towards rapid fire "gotcha" drill, where the only goal of the training session seems to be to demonstrate how much cooler the senior cadets are. Never mind that the junior cadets can't seem to execute the commands correctly and are doing poorly at the basics, let's just keep reinforcing bad habits to show them that we know more than they do.

It's been over 30 years since I was a cadet.
I was a know-it-all, thought I knew everything, and didn't seem to need to put my face in the book because I had been taught correctly by my betters, right?

Imagine my surprise on a snowy morning in February at Fort Dix when I realized I really didn't know as much as I thought I did. Actually that's surprise came much later when I poked my nose back into the Air Force drill and ceremonies manual and found out that most of the ways I had been taught as a cadet were wrong.

And to MSgt Harris's point, occasionally even the professionals don't get it right. Almost 20 years ago an editing error introduced in the drill and ceremonies manual was pointed out to the OPR at Lackland. It has been two or three editions later and that error is still in the manual. I am pretty sure that they are teaching the command the way it has always been done, but in theory if some enterprising TI were to actually read that paragraph carefully, they would be teaching that command differently.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Kayll'b

Quote from: lordmonar on June 18, 2019, 06:21:17 am

Since we don't use "by your command" very much (if at all)...I think I have maybe used it as a training aid all of five times in my 15 or so years in CAP. It is really just one of those things that I don't think we get to our pants into a wad about.

YMMV of course.


Really? At my squadron we use it multiple times every meeting.
C/1st Lt

Mitchell # 69847

Squadron Cadet Leadership officer

GCAC Recorder

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Kayll'b on June 19, 2019, 03:23:09 am
Quote from: lordmonar on June 18, 2019, 06:21:17 am

Since we don't use "by your command" very much (if at all)...I think I have maybe used it as a training aid all of five times in my 15 or so years in CAP. It is really just one of those things that I don't think we get to our pants into a wad about.

YMMV of course.


Really? At my squadron we use it multiple times every meeting.


Why? It isn't real. It's in the same category as "Hey diddle-diddle, file from the middle."


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

lordmonar

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 19, 2019, 03:59:04 am
Quote from: Kayll'b on June 19, 2019, 03:23:09 am
Quote from: lordmonar on June 18, 2019, 06:21:17 am

Since we don't use "by your command" very much (if at all)...I think I have maybe used it as a training aid all of five times in my 15 or so years in CAP. It is really just one of those things that I don't think we get to our pants into a wad about.

YMMV of course.


Really? At my squadron we use it multiple times every meeting.


Why? It isn't real. It's in the same category as "Hey diddle-diddle, file from the middle."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No....it's a real command.   It is used to teach people how to develop their command voice cadence and to follow the commands.   

It is not necessary to learn that for any of the CAP drill tests so we don't use it much where I'm at.   Used it at Cadet NCO School and Staff Development for encampment...but that it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2019, 04:39:05 am
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 19, 2019, 03:59:04 am
Quote from: Kayll'b on June 19, 2019, 03:23:09 am
Quote from: lordmonar on June 18, 2019, 06:21:17 am

Since we don't use "by your command" very much (if at all)...I think I have maybe used it as a training aid all of five times in my 15 or so years in CAP. It is really just one of those things that I don't think we get to our pants into a wad about.

YMMV of course.


Really? At my squadron we use it multiple times every meeting.


Why? It isn't real. It's in the same category as "Hey diddle-diddle, file from the middle."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No....it's a real command.   It is used to teach people how to develop their command voice cadence and to follow the commands.   

It is not necessary to learn that for any of the CAP drill tests so we don't use it much where I'm at.   Used it at Cadet NCO School and Staff Development for encampment...but that it.


None of the D&C material I have includes the command, "By my command". There are commands, "At your command" and "At my command", but these are used in a slightly different manner than described above.

See attachment. The text is essentially unchanged from 1963 to 2013. This excerpt is from the 1981 Leadership Laboratory text.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: lordmonar on June 19, 2019, 04:39:05 am
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 19, 2019, 03:59:04 am
Quote from: Kayll'b on June 19, 2019, 03:23:09 am
Quote from: lordmonar on June 18, 2019, 06:21:17 am

Since we don't use "by your command" very much (if at all)...I think I have maybe used it as a training aid all of five times in my 15 or so years in CAP. It is really just one of those things that I don't think we get to our pants into a wad about.

YMMV of course.


Really? At my squadron we use it multiple times every meeting.


Why? It isn't real. It's in the same category as "Hey diddle-diddle, file from the middle."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No....it's a real command.   It is used to teach people how to develop their command voice cadence and to follow the commands.   

It is not necessary to learn that for any of the CAP drill tests so we don't use it much where I'm at.   Used it at Cadet NCO School and Staff Development for encampment...but that it.


If it's real, can you point to it in a reg? I can't find it in anything going back to 1963.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Spam


Fester

In 5 years as a cadet and 2 as a senior member, I've never used or seen used "by my command" when calling Mass Commands.  I have, however, both used it and seen it used to transfer control of a flight, squadron or group from one person to another.  For example, when the Flight Sergeant has been calling commands and the First Sergeant or Flight Commander wants to take control of the flight.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

lordmonar

AFman 36.2203

"2.6.  Mass Commands. 2.6.1.  Mass commands help develop confidence, self-reliance, assertiveness, and enthusiasm by making the individual recall, give, and execute the proper commands.  Mass commands are usually confined to simple movements with short preparatory commands and commands of execution executed simultaneously by all elements of a unit. 2.6.2.  Each person is required to give commands in unison with others as if that person alone were giving commands to the entire element.  The volume of the combined voices encourages every person to perform the movement with snap and precision. 2.6.3.  When the instructor wants to conduct drill by mass commands, the command is AT YOUR COMMAND.  For each exercise and cadence drill, the instructor announces the movement to be executed and commands the element COMMAND.  Personnel then give the commands and execute them in unison. 2.6.4.  The following are examples of mass commands: Instructor:  AT YOUR COMMAND, Call the Flight to Attention, COMMAND.  Mass:  Flight, ATTENTION.  Instructor:  Have the Flight Stand at Parade Rest, COMMAND.  Mass:  Parade, REST.  Instructor:  March the Flight Forward, COMMAND.  Mass:  Forward, MARCH.  Instructor:  Halt the Flight, COMMAND.  Mass:  Flight, HALT 2.6.5.  When desiring to end mass commands, the instructor commands AT MY COMMAND.  "

At My Command is the correct way of saying.

Bottom line is.   

"By My Command" is not a real command.   
Is it a way of showing who is actually in command?  Sure.   Much like pilots saying "your airplane" "My Airplane" when they are passing over responsiblity.

Is it "wrong" to say "By my command"?   Sure if you are a 100% stickler for the regs and manuals.   

Like I said before.   By My Command is not really something that get's my nickers in a wad.

YMMV.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: Spam on June 20, 2019, 05:39:18 am

https://www.scribd.com/document/145306417/1981-CAPM-50-3-Civil-Air-Patrol-Leadership-Laboratory-Volume-1

Section 81, Page 46.

... of this OBSOLETE pub...

;)

V/r
Spam


Check out the attachment in my previous post. While the layout and paragraph numbers have changed, that text is essentially unchanged from 1963 to 2013, which, I believe, is the date of the current AF D&C manual.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Spam on June 20, 2019, 05:39:18 am

https://www.scribd.com/document/145306417/1981-CAPM-50-3-Civil-Air-Patrol-Leadership-Laboratory-Volume-1

Section 81, Page 46.

... of this OBSOLETE pub...

;)

V/r
Spam


That references "At my command." I thought this discussion was about "By my command."


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2019, 06:22:37 am
AFman 36.2203

"2.6.  Mass Commands. 2.6.1.  Mass commands help develop confidence, self-reliance, assertiveness, and enthusiasm by making the individual recall, give, and execute the proper commands.  Mass commands are usually confined to simple movements with short preparatory commands and commands of execution executed simultaneously by all elements of a unit. 2.6.2.  Each person is required to give commands in unison with others as if that person alone were giving commands to the entire element.  The volume of the combined voices encourages every person to perform the movement with snap and precision. 2.6.3.  When the instructor wants to conduct drill by mass commands, the command is AT YOUR COMMAND.  For each exercise and cadence drill, the instructor announces the movement to be executed and commands the element COMMAND.  Personnel then give the commands and execute them in unison. 2.6.4.  The following are examples of mass commands: Instructor:  AT YOUR COMMAND, Call the Flight to Attention, COMMAND.  Mass:  Flight, ATTENTION.  Instructor:  Have the Flight Stand at Parade Rest, COMMAND.  Mass:  Parade, REST.  Instructor:  March the Flight Forward, COMMAND.  Mass:  Forward, MARCH.  Instructor:  Halt the Flight, COMMAND.  Mass:  Flight, HALT 2.6.5.  When desiring to end mass commands, the instructor commands AT MY COMMAND.  "

At My Command is the correct way of saying.

Bottom line is.   

"By My Command" is not a real command.   
Is it a way of showing who is actually in command?  Sure.   Much like pilots saying "your airplane" "My Airplane" when they are passing over responsiblity.

Is it "wrong" to say "By my command"?   Sure if you are a 100% stickler for the regs and manuals.   

Like I said before.   By My Command is not really something that get's my nickers in a wad.

YMMV.


When It comes to drill and ceremonies, yes, I am a 100% stickler. Mostly because I have seen plenty of Squadron level inventions which leech into common use because nobody quashed them when they first emerged.

How many times have you heard somebody in charge of a flight say "belay that" instead of "as you were" to retract a preparatory command? How many times have you heard the command "March time, March?" How about "telling a column of files to go forward, when the intent was to have them do a column left, resulting in "Column of files from the left, forward, into the building, March?" All sloppy, all home-grown.

At any rate, stuff used according to standards should meet those standards. Bogus home-made commands and nonsensical commands deserve knicker wadding when first encountered so as to stop them from spreading, as, once spread, they are hard to undo.

The topic of this discussion is a command which does not exist. I believe the only correct response is to answer, correctly, that it does not exist and therefore should not be used.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Kayll'b

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 19, 2019, 03:59:04 am
Quote from: Kayll'b on June 19, 2019, 03:23:09 am
Quote from: lordmonar on June 18, 2019, 06:21:17 am

Since we don't use "by your command" very much (if at all)...I think I have maybe used it as a training aid all of five times in my 15 or so years in CAP. It is really just one of those things that I don't think we get to our pants into a wad about.

YMMV of course.


Really? At my squadron we use it multiple times every meeting.


Why? It isn't real. It's in the same category as "Hey diddle-diddle, file from the middle."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because we were not aware of that.
C/1st Lt

Mitchell # 69847

Squadron Cadet Leadership officer

GCAC Recorder

Eclipse

Once informed, people interested in doing things
properly adjust and move on.



lordmonar

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 20, 2019, 03:11:04 pm
Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2019, 06:22:37 am
AFman 36.2203

"2.6.  Mass Commands. 2.6.1.  Mass commands help develop confidence, self-reliance, assertiveness, and enthusiasm by making the individual recall, give, and execute the proper commands.  Mass commands are usually confined to simple movements with short preparatory commands and commands of execution executed simultaneously by all elements of a unit. 2.6.2.  Each person is required to give commands in unison with others as if that person alone were giving commands to the entire element.  The volume of the combined voices encourages every person to perform the movement with snap and precision. 2.6.3.  When the instructor wants to conduct drill by mass commands, the command is AT YOUR COMMAND.  For each exercise and cadence drill, the instructor announces the movement to be executed and commands the element COMMAND.  Personnel then give the commands and execute them in unison. 2.6.4.  The following are examples of mass commands: Instructor:  AT YOUR COMMAND, Call the Flight to Attention, COMMAND.  Mass:  Flight, ATTENTION.  Instructor:  Have the Flight Stand at Parade Rest, COMMAND.  Mass:  Parade, REST.  Instructor:  March the Flight Forward, COMMAND.  Mass:  Forward, MARCH.  Instructor:  Halt the Flight, COMMAND.  Mass:  Flight, HALT 2.6.5.  When desiring to end mass commands, the instructor commands AT MY COMMAND.  "

At My Command is the correct way of saying.

Bottom line is.   

"By My Command" is not a real command.   
Is it a way of showing who is actually in command?  Sure.   Much like pilots saying "your airplane" "My Airplane" when they are passing over responsiblity.

Is it "wrong" to say "By my command"?   Sure if you are a 100% stickler for the regs and manuals.   

Like I said before.   By My Command is not really something that get's my nickers in a wad.

YMMV.


When It comes to drill and ceremonies, yes, I am a 100% stickler. Mostly because I have seen plenty of Squadron level inventions which leech into common use because nobody quashed them when they first emerged.

How many times have you heard somebody in charge of a flight say "belay that" instead of "as you were" to retract a preparatory command? How many times have you heard the command "March time, March?" How about "telling a column of files to go forward, when the intent was to have them do a column left, resulting in "Column of files from the left, forward, into the building, March?" All sloppy, all home-grown.

At any rate, stuff used according to standards should meet those standards. Bogus home-made commands and nonsensical commands deserve knicker wadding when first encountered so as to stop them from spreading, as, once spread, they are hard to undo.

The topic of this discussion is a command which does not exist. I believe the only correct response is to answer, correctly, that it does not exist and therefore should not be used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well....there is a difference between doing it wrong.....and using a command that is not covered by the prescribed manual.   But like I said.  YMMV.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: lordmonar on June 21, 2019, 05:11:21 am
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 20, 2019, 03:11:04 pm
Quote from: lordmonar on June 20, 2019, 06:22:37 am
AFman 36.2203

"2.6.  Mass Commands. 2.6.1.  Mass commands help develop confidence, self-reliance, assertiveness, and enthusiasm by making the individual recall, give, and execute the proper commands.  Mass commands are usually confined to simple movements with short preparatory commands and commands of execution executed simultaneously by all elements of a unit. 2.6.2.  Each person is required to give commands in unison with others as if that person alone were giving commands to the entire element.  The volume of the combined voices encourages every person to perform the movement with snap and precision. 2.6.3.  When the instructor wants to conduct drill by mass commands, the command is AT YOUR COMMAND.  For each exercise and cadence drill, the instructor announces the movement to be executed and commands the element COMMAND.  Personnel then give the commands and execute them in unison. 2.6.4.  The following are examples of mass commands: Instructor:  AT YOUR COMMAND, Call the Flight to Attention, COMMAND.  Mass:  Flight, ATTENTION.  Instructor:  Have the Flight Stand at Parade Rest, COMMAND.  Mass:  Parade, REST.  Instructor:  March the Flight Forward, COMMAND.  Mass:  Forward, MARCH.  Instructor:  Halt the Flight, COMMAND.  Mass:  Flight, HALT 2.6.5.  When desiring to end mass commands, the instructor commands AT MY COMMAND.  "

At My Command is the correct way of saying.

Bottom line is.   

"By My Command" is not a real command.   
Is it a way of showing who is actually in command?  Sure.   Much like pilots saying "your airplane" "My Airplane" when they are passing over responsiblity.

Is it "wrong" to say "By my command"?   Sure if you are a 100% stickler for the regs and manuals.   

Like I said before.   By My Command is not really something that get's my nickers in a wad.

YMMV.


When It comes to drill and ceremonies, yes, I am a 100% stickler. Mostly because I have seen plenty of Squadron level inventions which leech into common use because nobody quashed them when they first emerged.

How many times have you heard somebody in charge of a flight say "belay that" instead of "as you were" to retract a preparatory command? How many times have you heard the command "March time, March?" How about "telling a column of files to go forward, when the intent was to have them do a column left, resulting in "Column of files from the left, forward, into the building, March?" All sloppy, all home-grown.

At any rate, stuff used according to standards should meet those standards. Bogus home-made commands and nonsensical commands deserve knicker wadding when first encountered so as to stop them from spreading, as, once spread, they are hard to undo.

The topic of this discussion is a command which does not exist. I believe the only correct response is to answer, correctly, that it does not exist and therefore should not be used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well....there is a difference between doing it wrong.....and using a command that is not covered by the prescribed manual.   But like I said.  YMMV.


If it's wrong, and not in the book, then what is the difference? The easy route is also the correct route - don't use it, right? There really is t any allowance for varying mileage - there is no way to do a wrong thing the right way!


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

SarDragon

Let us see - Q was asked, Q was thoroughly discussed, the usual snarky comments were made, thankfully in moderation, and an almost consensus (majority opinion?) was reached.

Sayonara.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret