May 25, 2020, 06:52:00 am

Encampment at Scott AFB

Started by xray328, June 17, 2019, 09:17:31 pm

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xray328

Just came across this...

https://www.bnd.com/news/local/community/scott-afb/article231595998.html

Why doesn't ILWG go to Scott AFB for summer encampment? Distance?  It'd sure be nice for them to get exposure to an active duty Air Force installation.


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abdsp51

There is alot that goes into encampments.  The installation has to be able to accomodate the influx and still function and requires alot of coordination.

AZWG hosts it traditionally at an air park and CAWG traditonally hosts theirs at Camp San Luis Obispo but these as usually set up way in advance.   From what I know ILWG usually goes to Great Lakes. 

I was actually trying to get an encampment done at Davis-Monthan but it fell through. 

jeders

Quote from: abdsp51 on June 17, 2019, 09:35:10 pm
From what I know ILWG usually goes to Great Lakes. 


There's a great deal to consider, but my uneducated guess is that this is the main reason why they don't use Scott. No need to go fixing something that isn't broken.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

xray328

June 17, 2019, 09:39:30 pm #3 Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 09:44:20 pm by xray328
ILWG held its Summer Encampment in Springfield for many years and recently moved to Marseilles, both Army NG.  Spring is at Great Lakes.

They don't seem to have an issue hosting AFJROTC cadets from four states.  Maybe something to look into.  Again though, distance might play a part, Scott's not exactly central Illinois.


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Spaceman3750

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2019, 09:39:30 pm
ILWG held its Summer Encampment in Springfield for many years and recently moved to Marseilles, both Army NG.  Spring is at Great Lakes.

They don't seem to have an issue hosting AFJROTC cadets from four states.  Maybe something to look into.  Again though, distance might play a part, Scott's not exactly central Illinois.


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It's been explored by the encampment staff.

Sapper168

I am the Commandant of cadets for IL Summer Encampment.  We looked into Scott AFB.  The factor that made it a no-go is, there are no facilities or lodging available for use of an encampment sized group.  We even looked into being able to set up a 'tent city' for lodging and really the other options available were much better.
Shane E Guernsey, TSgt, CAP
CAP Squadron ESO... "Who did what now?"
CAP Squadron NCO Advisor... "Where is the coffee located?"
US Army 12B... "Sappers Lead the Way!"
US Army Reserve 71L-f5... "Going Postal!"

xray328

Quote from: Sapper168 on June 17, 2019, 09:57:44 pm
I am the Commandant of cadets for IL Summer Encampment.  We looked into Scott AFB.  The factor that made it a no-go is, there are no facilities or lodging available for use of an encampment sized group.  We even looked into being able to set up a 'tent city' for lodging and really the other options available were much better.


I'm interested to see what AFJROTC did, the article said they hosted 120 cadets from four states.


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PHall

Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2019, 10:00:21 pm
Quote from: Sapper168 on June 17, 2019, 09:57:44 pm
I am the Commandant of cadets for IL Summer Encampment.  We looked into Scott AFB.  The factor that made it a no-go is, there are no facilities or lodging available for use of an encampment sized group.  We even looked into being able to set up a 'tent city' for lodging and really the other options available were much better.


I'm interested to see what AFJROTC did, the article said they hosted 120 cadets from four states.


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Air Force Bases usually don't have a barracks or enough vacant billeting rooms available to handle an encampment, especially a large one.
When AFROTC used to have a number of Field Training facilities spread around the country we could usually use those.
But they consolidated all AFROTC Field Training at Maxwell AFB, AL in about 1992 and the other sites were torn down (i.e. Vandenberg AFB), the base it was on closed (i.e. McCllean AFB) or the facilities are not available any more (i.e. Fairchild AFB).

This is why many encampments are now held on Army National Guard facilities. They have barracks, classrooms and messing facilities and are available to us.

xray328

Quote from: PHall on June 17, 2019, 11:24:11 pm
Quote from: xray328 on June 17, 2019, 10:00:21 pm
Quote from: Sapper168 on June 17, 2019, 09:57:44 pm
I am the Commandant of cadets for IL Summer Encampment.  We looked into Scott AFB.  The factor that made it a no-go is, there are no facilities or lodging available for use of an encampment sized group.  We even looked into being able to set up a 'tent city' for lodging and really the other options available were much better.


I'm interested to see what AFJROTC did, the article said they hosted 120 cadets from four states.


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Air Force Bases usually don't have a barracks or enough vacant billeting rooms available to handle an encampment, especially a large one.
When AFROTC used to have a number of Field Training facilities spread around the country we could usually use those.
But they consolidated all AFROTC Field Training at Maxwell AFB, AL in about 1992 and the other sites were torn down (i.e. Vandenberg AFB), the base it was on closed (i.e. McCllean AFB) or the facilities are not available any more (i.e. Fairchild AFB).

This is why many encampments are now held on Army National Guard facilities. They have barracks, classrooms and messing facilities and are available to us.


That's been the reason I've heard in the past as well.  Just surprised that Air Force JUNIOR ROTC is currently making use of the installation.  Same sort of program, probably twice the size of our summer encampment (what'd we have - 60 cadets?) Maybe time to revisit this?  In reading over the article it's pretty much exactly what we'd do there.


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Jester

June 18, 2019, 03:03:53 am #9 Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 03:12:30 am by Jester
I've been trying to find out where AFJROTC puts those kids for 3 years now and haven't gotten an answer.

Lots of people have tried to crack this nut, me included. 




PHall

Quote from: Jester on June 18, 2019, 03:03:53 am
I've been trying to find out where AFJROTC puts those kids for 3 years now and haven't gotten an answer.

Lots of people have tried to crack this nut, me included.


How many billeting rooms does Scott have?  I did an encampment at Norton AFB back in the 70's where we stayed in the Inland House, base billeting.
Norton had about 200 billeting rooms back then.

Jester

It's possible but I can't think of a less encampment-like environment than that. They just opened the new billeting a year or so ago, old one got torn down.



PHall

Quote from: Jester on June 18, 2019, 04:32:02 am
It's possible but I can't think of a less encampment-like environment than that. They just opened the new billeting a year or so ago, old one got torn down.


Beggers aren't choosers. You use what you can get and AFJROTC Leadership Camps are not exactly Basic Training...

xray328

June 18, 2019, 11:55:32 am #14 Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 12:00:02 pm by xray328
Given this "Total Force" deal it'd be nice to see them offer us the opportunity to attend, sounds like a good time.. The RTC has been very good to us over the past 28 years but it is kind of a shame our cadets don't get to see active duty AF operations as much as these AFJROTC cadets do.  I know we have several NCSA's on active duty AF bases, but the ones I've seen don't get the cadets outside the activity and involved in AF as a whole.  Nothing against them of course, just another one of those "it'd be nice" things I guess.


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Slim

June 19, 2019, 08:20:47 am #15 Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 08:32:32 am by Slim
it never used to be that way.

For the better part of 40 years, MIWG has held their encampment at the same facility.  Originally, it was called Phelps-Collins ANGB, but the name changed in the mid 90s to Alpena CRTC.  Also, up until around that same timeframe, we were required to have a "Host" unit, typically air guard, who would support us logistically (food services, billeting, etc).  They were usually guard units deployed there doing their two week's summer training.  But on rare occasions, we'd have an active duty unit; the one year I remember, we had the 380th BMW from Plattsburgh AFB.  We always got all kinds of support from the hosts, including shop tours and mission briefings.  But the big thing was atmosphere; our people interacting with theirs, flight ops in progress (learned to love twilight FB-111 AB takeoffs), orientation flights if they were a tanker or airlift unit, etc.  At the same time, we'd bus every cadet an hour down the road to Wurtsmith AFB (379th BMW, B-52s/KC-135s) for tours.  That all changed when the base decided we could support ourselves easier than relying on a unit (there was a time after Gulf War I where units had no funding to deploy for training).  Also about that time, the first round of 90s era BRAC closures swept up Wurtsmith.  These days, MIWG has the base to itself and it can be kinda quiet.  There are less than 100 permanent party guardsmen on the base, most if it is run by contractors now.  It's nice being alone and not having to fight for support, but the atmosphere just isn't the same.

We went to Wright Patterson in 1991, when Alpena wasn't available.  Great base, lots of cool to see and do, including the AF Museum.  We used the old AFROTC barracks on what was then called the Kitty Hawk area.  We were there for our week, turned the barracks over to Ohio Wing for their encampment the week after, and the Air Force started demolition on those buildings the week after they were done with them.

The two years after that, we went to Wurtsmith and Camp Grayling (an Army guard maneuver center).  Wurtsmth was fine, but was closing.  We got a lot of the old tours and support we used to have.  But there were only about 250 people and maybe four airplanes left there.  We were housed in a three story dorm.  Grayling was ok, but very spartan; bare concrete floors, cinder block walls, and there were a lot of challenges for the cadets to overcome and get used to. 

Looking at it realistically, there aren't many air force bases nowadays that have empty dorms just waiting for CAP to come in for a week every year to use.  The only places that come to mind would be Lackland, and maybe the tech training bases like Keesler and Goodfellow between school cycles.  There are four CRTCs around the country - Alpena in Michigan, Volk Field in Wisconsin (which WIWG uses for their encampment), Savannah, GA and Gulfport MS.  I don't know if GA and MS have ever used either, but they are there.  OTOH, just about every state has at least one Fort or Camp dedicated to Army National Guard training (we're fortunate to have two in MI, Camp Grayling up north, and Fort Custer in the southwest part of the state).  Army facilities are much more readily available, and more plentiful  than Air Force facilities. 


Indiana Wing uses Camp Atterbury, but they aren't really even on the post.  The barracks facilities they use are actually about a mile north of the main post.  Its a great facility, about 4 years old now, but we're out in the middle of nowhere basically.  There are a few things we do that are held on the main post, but for the most part, we're off by ourselves.  If you were at NESA last year, or going this year, it's the same facility.


All that being said, one of my former cadets is a CMSgt at AMC HQ at Scott.  If you really really wanted an answer, I could probably reach out to him and ask.



Slim

GaryVC

Interesting. I was in the 380th BMW from Plattsburgh AFB from 1974 to 1980. Tanker navigator and then wing staff.

xray328

Yeah, just curious.  I've got a feeling they're at the Scott Inn.  Two cadets to a room would only take 1/4 of their availability.  And it's not that we'd need to run an encampment there, but an invitation to join them (maybe 10-15?) would be nice.  They advertise it as a summer leadership seminar vs an encampment anyway. When my daughter went to RCLS in INWG a handful of Navy JROTC cadets were invited to attend. It was a nice gesture.


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jeders

Quote from: xray328 on June 19, 2019, 04:44:15 pm
They advertise it as a summer leadership seminar vs an encampment anyway.


AFJROTC Summer Leadership Seminar is their equivalent to encampment. In fact, CAP cadets who complete AFJROTC SLS are eligible for encampment credit.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

MSG Mac

Quote from: jeders on June 19, 2019, 08:14:10 pm
Quote from: xray328 on June 19, 2019, 04:44:15 pm
They advertise it as a summer leadership seminar vs an encampment anyway.


AFJROTC Summer Leadership Seminar is their equivalent to encampment. In fact, CAP cadets who complete AFJROTC SLS are eligible for encampment credit.


But not the ribbon
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

jeders

Quote from: MSG Mac on June 19, 2019, 08:24:58 pm
Quote from: jeders on June 19, 2019, 08:14:10 pm
Quote from: xray328 on June 19, 2019, 04:44:15 pm
They advertise it as a summer leadership seminar vs an encampment anyway.


AFJROTC Summer Leadership Seminar is their equivalent to encampment. In fact, CAP cadets who complete AFJROTC SLS are eligible for encampment credit.


But not the ribbon


Correct.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

xray328

Having just relocated to Marseilles I'm not sure how interested (if at all) the summer encampment folks are in relocating again.  And of course that's assuming they'd even have us.  This SLS course might be enough for one year for the folks that host it (as in they wouldn't want us there).  The activity could also already be at capacity.


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MSG Mac

Quote from: xray328 on June 19, 2019, 08:29:36 pm
Having just relocated to Marseilles I'm not sure how interested (if at all) the summer encampment folks are in relocating again.  And of course that's assuming they'd even have us.  This SLS course might be enough for one year for the folks that host it (as in they wouldn't want us there).  The activity could also already be at capacity.


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But they don't get the Encampment Ribbon.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Jester

Quote from: xray328 on June 19, 2019, 08:29:36 pm
Having just relocated to Marseilles I'm not sure how interested (if at all) the summer encampment folks are in relocating again.  And of course that's assuming they'd even have us.  This SLS course might be enough for one year for the folks that host it (as in they wouldn't want us there).  The activity could also already be at capacity.


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That's the vibe I got from the base commander. 

For a relatively small base, Scott is insanely busy with AMC HQ, TRANSCOM HQ, AF Reserve and ANG, an active duty mission, etc.

abdsp51

Which goes back to my original post of the base may not be able to support it.

Toad1168

We still have plenty of room at the Missouri Wing encampment.  Its only a short drive down 44 to Fort Leonard Wood.  20-27 July, but registration closes 30 June.  http://ctg.mowgcap.us/
Toad

xray328

Quote from: Toad1168 on June 20, 2019, 01:59:52 pm
We still have plenty of room at the Missouri Wing encampment.  Its only a short drive down 44 to Fort Leonard Wood.  20-27 July, but registration closes 30 June.  http://ctg.mowgcap.us/


That defeats the purpose, again an Army post.  The point was to try to get the cadets to an Air Force installation. ILWG has plenty of room at its summer encampment.


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GroundHawg

I have been to multiple encampments over the years, and all except 91 at WPAFB have been on Army installations.  Ft. Knox, Ft. Campbell, Camp Atterbury, and WHFRTC.  Ironically, I never went to an encampment at the base I was stationed at when on active duty. I loved my time at Army based CAP encampments  and they were very gracious hosts. They loved having us there and went out of their way to accommodate us. We had Kiowa and Blackhawk orientation flights, rode in tanks and had a competition in the tank simulators, went down the rappel towers, qualified on the ranges, pathfinder and sling-load operations classes, had Blackhats run PT with us, got to watch JTACs call in A-10's on the ranges (why I went that route when I enlisted actually), toured the base fire houses and put out fires in full turnout gear, went to the Patton Museum, and tons of other things that we really wouldn't have ever experienced on an AF base. I dont think one is necessarily better than the other, just different.

TheSkyHornet

WPAFB is pretty good for Encampment, considering the activities there are to do in addition to just room inspections and drill: museum tour, security forces, base honor guard, etc.

The issue we have with WPAFB is that we don't have on-post housing. We have to use the nearby Wright State University dormitories, which is a logistical challenge (transporting cadets to and from post by bus multiple times a day), and it's very costly.

The Encampment cost for OHWG this year is $265, which isn't cheap.

tribalelder

ILWG encampment was at Scott in 1966 and at now-gone Chanute  in 1968. Illinois held a Spring encampment for many years at Great Lakes Naval Training Center. Illinois held summer encampments at Alpena (1969 or 1970) Ft. McCoy(at least a ten year run) and Marseilles. It's all about where facilities are available.

WE ARE HERE ON CAPTALK BECAUSE WE ALL CARE ABOUT THE PROGRAM. We may not always agree and we should not always agree.  One of our strengths as an organization is that we didn't all go to the same school, so we all know how to do something different and differently. 
Since we all care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil -- after all, it's in our name.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 20, 2019, 06:21:03 pm

The Encampment cost for OHWG this year is $265, which isn't cheap.


This is what I don't get. Why does Encampment get rated on a scale of cheapness? Who says it has to be cheap?

I just checked a Boy Scout registration website for Ohio. It came in at $315. That's a $50 difference. And...adults get a break in costs for staffing the camps (possibly from Scout registrations subsidizing their own staffing costs, but I don't know. But their is nothing evil in that).

So, BSA in one Ohio Council alone has 7 camps, with people gladly paying $315. Meanwhile, CAP will always show angst when the fee "...isn't cheap."  What could CAP do with an extra $50 (or even $30, $20) per head? Probably a lot, but it takes a leap and good budgeting to find out.

I just don't get it.



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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 25, 2019, 12:04:35 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 20, 2019, 06:21:03 pm

The Encampment cost for OHWG this year is $265, which isn't cheap.


This is what I don't get. Why does Encampment get rated on a scale of cheapness? Who says it has to be cheap?

I just checked a Boy Scout registration website for Ohio. It came in at $315. That's a $50 difference. And...adults get a break in costs for staffing the camps (possibly from Scout registrations subsidizing their own staffing costs, but I don't know. But their is nothing evil in that).

So, BSA in one Ohio Council alone has 7 camps, with people gladly paying $315. Meanwhile, CAP will always show angst when the fee "...isn't cheap."  What could CAP do with an extra $50 (or even $30, $20) per head? Probably a lot, but it takes a leap and good budgeting to find out.

I just don't get it.


Encampment does cost just $265. It costs well beyond that. $265 is just the registration fee alone.

For a first year cadet to attend Encampment:
$40 membership fee
$265 Encampment fee
$633 for uniform items off the Encampment packing list (I subtracted $100 for the Curry voucher)
*Excludes optional items (poncho, camelbak, etc), PT wear, bedding, and hygiene/personal care items

This is the cost for a brand-new parent with zero guidance on shopping around getting mostly everything off Vanguard (CAP's official uniform supplier). Excludes shipping costs.

That's nearing $950 someone might incur, say, if they get their Curry 30 days before Encampment begins. Our last Great Start ran from March through May. In a 90-day period, that's what a parent may have spent.

xSpecialist

In my Squadron 2 new cadets just joined a few weeks ago, and Encampment is this week. So.... not a lot of time.
C/SMSgt Alexander Harrison
Maj Kevin A Adams Memorial Composite Squadron
Alpha Flight Sergeant
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 25, 2019, 01:43:22 am
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 25, 2019, 12:04:35 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 20, 2019, 06:21:03 pm

The Encampment cost for OHWG this year is $265, which isn't cheap.


This is what I don't get. Why does Encampment get rated on a scale of cheapness? Who says it has to be cheap?

I just checked a Boy Scout registration website for Ohio. It came in at $315. That's a $50 difference. And...adults get a break in costs for staffing the camps (possibly from Scout registrations subsidizing their own staffing costs, but I don't know. But their is nothing evil in that).

So, BSA in one Ohio Council alone has 7 camps, with people gladly paying $315. Meanwhile, CAP will always show angst when the fee "...isn't cheap."  What could CAP do with an extra $50 (or even $30, $20) per head? Probably a lot, but it takes a leap and good budgeting to find out.

I just don't get it.


Encampment does cost just $265. It costs well beyond that. $265 is just the registration fee alone.

For a first year cadet to attend Encampment:
$40 membership fee
$265 Encampment fee
$633 for uniform items off the Encampment packing list (I subtracted $100 for the Curry voucher)
*Excludes optional items (poncho, camelbak, etc), PT wear, bedding, and hygiene/personal care items

This is the cost for a brand-new parent with zero guidance on shopping around getting mostly everything off Vanguard (CAP's official uniform supplier). Excludes shipping costs.

That's nearing $950 someone might incur, say, if they get their Curry 30 days before Encampment begins. Our last Great Start ran from March through May. In a 90-day period, that's what a parent may have spent.


and...the Boy Scouts aren't showing up at their camp naked, either. They also have other expenses besides camp registration fees.

I don't know how relevant it is to cite what a parent "...may have spent." There are others who "...may have spent" less. In fact, there are some who "...may have spent" quite little, depending on ability to get uniforms issued/loaned.

At any rate, my point is that CAP has been chasing low costs and trembling in fear of "too expensive" for at least as long as I go back (1967) while other youth programs budget and save where they can, but ultimately charge what it costs without apologizing for it - and people show up.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

TheSkyHornet

That's a fair point. I yield.

I'll say, it's definitely better to discuss this stuff up front before applications are even turned in than to blast them with a supply list 30 days out and get bombarded by parents who start shouting "But I already just paid (x-amount)!"

I had a parent who came up to me a few weeks ago asking about signing up his cadet (didn't matter that Encampment was already closed for registration and additional sign-ups would be waitlisted)...anyway...dad said that the cadet didn't have all of the required items on the packing list and didn't really want to spend the cash in such a tight timeframe. I fully understand. Okay, so don't go to Encampment right now. Go next year, or maybe go to one later in the year and just pick up odds and ends over a few months rather than all at once. Not the end of the world.

One thing that we're blessed with at our unit is an awesome parents booster that helps raise a lot of funds which go to cutting activity costs. We've ran nearly two...three?...years now without cadets having to pay anything at squadron activities. For Encampment, we're covering $125 this year per cadet, which is nearly half the cost. We could probably afford to cover all of it, but then we're eating into the budget for other activities that all squadron cadets can participate in.

Costs can always be offset by fundraising. You just have to know where to get the money.

xSpecialist

C/SMSgt Alexander Harrison
Maj Kevin A Adams Memorial Composite Squadron
Alpha Flight Sergeant
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary