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xray328
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« on: June 17, 2019, 09:17:31 PM »

Just came across this...

https://www.bnd.com/news/local/community/scott-afb/article231595998.html

Why doesnít ILWG go to Scott AFB for summer encampment? Distance?  Itíd sure be nice for them to get exposure to an active duty Air Force installation.


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abdsp51
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2019, 09:35:10 PM »

There is alot that goes into encampments.  The installation has to be able to accomodate the influx and still function and requires alot of coordination.

AZWG hosts it traditionally at an air park and CAWG traditonally hosts theirs at Camp San Luis Obispo but these as usually set up way in advance.   From what I know ILWG usually goes to Great Lakes. 

I was actually trying to get an encampment done at Davis-Monthan but it fell through. 
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jeders
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2019, 09:37:27 PM »

From what I know ILWG usually goes to Great Lakes. 

There's a great deal to consider, but my uneducated guess is that this is the main reason why they don't use Scott. No need to go fixing something that isn't broken.
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xray328
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2019, 09:39:30 PM »

ILWG held its Summer Encampment in Springfield for many years and recently moved to Marseilles, both Army NG.  Spring is at Great Lakes.

They donít seem to have an issue hosting AFJROTC cadets from four states.  Maybe something to look into.  Again though, distance might play a part, Scottís not exactly central Illinois.


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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2019, 09:51:24 PM »

ILWG held its Summer Encampment in Springfield for many years and recently moved to Marseilles, both Army NG.  Spring is at Great Lakes.

They donít seem to have an issue hosting AFJROTC cadets from four states.  Maybe something to look into.  Again though, distance might play a part, Scottís not exactly central Illinois.


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Itís been explored by the encampment staff.
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Sapper168
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2019, 09:57:44 PM »

I am the Commandant of cadets for IL Summer Encampment.  We looked into Scott AFB.  The factor that made it a no-go is, there are no facilities or lodging available for use of an encampment sized group.  We even looked into being able to set up a 'tent city' for lodging and really the other options available were much better.
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xray328
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2019, 10:00:21 PM »

I am the Commandant of cadets for IL Summer Encampment.  We looked into Scott AFB.  The factor that made it a no-go is, there are no facilities or lodging available for use of an encampment sized group.  We even looked into being able to set up a 'tent city' for lodging and really the other options available were much better.

Iím interested to see what AFJROTC did, the article said they hosted 120 cadets from four states.


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PHall
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2019, 11:24:11 PM »

I am the Commandant of cadets for IL Summer Encampment.  We looked into Scott AFB.  The factor that made it a no-go is, there are no facilities or lodging available for use of an encampment sized group.  We even looked into being able to set up a 'tent city' for lodging and really the other options available were much better.

Iím interested to see what AFJROTC did, the article said they hosted 120 cadets from four states.


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Air Force Bases usually don't have a barracks or enough vacant billeting rooms available to handle an encampment, especially a large one.
When AFROTC used to have a number of Field Training facilities spread around the country we could usually use those.
But they consolidated all AFROTC Field Training at Maxwell AFB, AL in about 1992 and the other sites were torn down (i.e. Vandenberg AFB), the base it was on closed (i.e. McCllean AFB) or the facilities are not available any more (i.e. Fairchild AFB).

This is why many encampments are now held on Army National Guard facilities. They have barracks, classrooms and messing facilities and are available to us.
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xray328
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2019, 11:45:36 PM »

I am the Commandant of cadets for IL Summer Encampment.  We looked into Scott AFB.  The factor that made it a no-go is, there are no facilities or lodging available for use of an encampment sized group.  We even looked into being able to set up a 'tent city' for lodging and really the other options available were much better.

Iím interested to see what AFJROTC did, the article said they hosted 120 cadets from four states.


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Air Force Bases usually don't have a barracks or enough vacant billeting rooms available to handle an encampment, especially a large one.
When AFROTC used to have a number of Field Training facilities spread around the country we could usually use those.
But they consolidated all AFROTC Field Training at Maxwell AFB, AL in about 1992 and the other sites were torn down (i.e. Vandenberg AFB), the base it was on closed (i.e. McCllean AFB) or the facilities are not available any more (i.e. Fairchild AFB).

This is why many encampments are now held on Army National Guard facilities. They have barracks, classrooms and messing facilities and are available to us.

Thatís been the reason Iíve heard in the past as well.  Just surprised that Air Force JUNIOR ROTC is currently making use of the installation.  Same sort of program, probably twice the size of our summer encampment (whatíd we have - 60 cadets?) Maybe time to revisit this?  In reading over the article itís pretty much exactly what weíd do there.


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Jester
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2019, 03:03:53 AM »

Iíve been trying to find out where AFJROTC puts those kids for 3 years now and havenít gotten an answer.

Lots of people have tried to crack this nut, me included. 



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PHall
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2019, 04:25:09 AM »

Iíve been trying to find out where AFJROTC puts those kids for 3 years now and havenít gotten an answer.

Lots of people have tried to crack this nut, me included.

How many billeting rooms does Scott have?  I did an encampment at Norton AFB back in the 70's where we stayed in the Inland House, base billeting.
Norton had about 200 billeting rooms back then.
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Jester
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2019, 04:32:02 AM »

Itís possible but I canít think of a less encampment-like environment than that. They just opened the new billeting a year or so ago, old one got torn down.

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xray328
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2019, 04:32:28 AM »

284...

https://www.korteco.com/construction-projects/visitors-quarters-scott-air-force-base/


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PHall
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2019, 05:23:54 AM »

Itís possible but I canít think of a less encampment-like environment than that. They just opened the new billeting a year or so ago, old one got torn down.

Beggers aren't choosers. You use what you can get and AFJROTC Leadership Camps are not exactly Basic Training...
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xray328
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2019, 11:55:32 AM »

Given this ďTotal ForceĒ deal itíd be nice to see them offer us the opportunity to attend, sounds like a good time.. The RTC has been very good to us over the past 28 years but it is kind of a shame our cadets donít get to see active duty AF operations as much as these AFJROTC cadets do.  I know we have several NCSAís on active duty AF bases, but the ones Iíve seen donít get the cadets outside the activity and involved in AF as a whole.  Nothing against them of course, just another one of those ďitíd be niceĒ things I guess.


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Slim
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2019, 08:20:47 AM »

it never used to be that way.

For the better part of 40 years, MIWG has held their encampment at the same facility.  Originally, it was called Phelps-Collins ANGB, but the name changed in the mid 90s to Alpena CRTC.  Also, up until around that same timeframe, we were required to have a "Host" unit, typically air guard, who would support us logistically (food services, billeting, etc).  They were usually guard units deployed there doing their two week's summer training.  But on rare occasions, we'd have an active duty unit; the one year I remember, we had the 380th BMW from Plattsburgh AFB.  We always got all kinds of support from the hosts, including shop tours and mission briefings.  But the big thing was atmosphere; our people interacting with theirs, flight ops in progress (learned to love twilight FB-111 AB takeoffs), orientation flights if they were a tanker or airlift unit, etc.  At the same time, we'd bus every cadet an hour down the road to Wurtsmith AFB (379th BMW, B-52s/KC-135s) for tours.  That all changed when the base decided we could support ourselves easier than relying on a unit (there was a time after Gulf War I where units had no funding to deploy for training).  Also about that time, the first round of 90s era BRAC closures swept up Wurtsmith.  These days, MIWG has the base to itself and it can be kinda quiet.  There are less than 100 permanent party guardsmen on the base, most if it is run by contractors now.  It's nice being alone and not having to fight for support, but the atmosphere just isn't the same.

We went to Wright Patterson in 1991, when Alpena wasn't available.  Great base, lots of cool to see and do, including the AF Museum.  We used the old AFROTC barracks on what was then called the Kitty Hawk area.  We were there for our week, turned the barracks over to Ohio Wing for their encampment the week after, and the Air Force started demolition on those buildings the week after they were done with them.

The two years after that, we went to Wurtsmith and Camp Grayling (an Army guard maneuver center).  Wurtsmth was fine, but was closing.  We got a lot of the old tours and support we used to have.  But there were only about 250 people and maybe four airplanes left there.  We were housed in a three story dorm.  Grayling was ok, but very spartan; bare concrete floors, cinder block walls, and there were a lot of challenges for the cadets to overcome and get used to. 

Looking at it realistically, there aren't many air force bases nowadays that have empty dorms just waiting for CAP to come in for a week every year to use.  The only places that come to mind would be Lackland, and maybe the tech training bases like Keesler and Goodfellow between school cycles.  There are four CRTCs around the country - Alpena in Michigan, Volk Field in Wisconsin (which WIWG uses for their encampment), Savannah, GA and Gulfport MS.  I don't know if GA and MS have ever used either, but they are there.  OTOH, just about every state has at least one Fort or Camp dedicated to Army National Guard training (we're fortunate to have two in MI, Camp Grayling up north, and Fort Custer in the southwest part of the state).  Army facilities are much more readily available, and more plentiful  than Air Force facilities. 


Indiana Wing uses Camp Atterbury, but they aren't really even on the post.  The barracks facilities they use are actually about a mile north of the main post.  Its a great facility, about 4 years old now, but we're out in the middle of nowhere basically.  There are a few things we do that are held on the main post, but for the most part, we're off by ourselves.  If you were at NESA last year, or going this year, it's the same facility.


All that being said, one of my former cadets is a CMSgt at AMC HQ at Scott.  If you really really wanted an answer, I could probably reach out to him and ask.
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Slim
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2019, 04:29:24 PM »

Interesting. I was in the 380th BMW from Plattsburgh AFB from 1974 to 1980. Tanker navigator and then wing staff.
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xray328
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2019, 04:44:15 PM »

Yeah, just curious.  Iíve got a feeling theyíre at the Scott Inn.  Two cadets to a room would only take 1/4 of their availability.  And itís not that weíd need to run an encampment there, but an invitation to join them (maybe 10-15?) would be nice.  They advertise it as a summer leadership seminar vs an encampment anyway. When my daughter went to RCLS in INWG a handful of Navy JROTC cadets were invited to attend. It was a nice gesture.


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jeders
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2019, 08:14:10 PM »

They advertise it as a summer leadership seminar vs an encampment anyway.

AFJROTC Summer Leadership Seminar is their equivalent to encampment. In fact, CAP cadets who complete AFJROTC SLS are eligible for encampment credit.
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2019, 08:24:58 PM »

They advertise it as a summer leadership seminar vs an encampment anyway.

AFJROTC Summer Leadership Seminar is their equivalent to encampment. In fact, CAP cadets who complete AFJROTC SLS are eligible for encampment credit.

But not the ribbon
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jeders
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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2019, 08:25:43 PM »

They advertise it as a summer leadership seminar vs an encampment anyway.

AFJROTC Summer Leadership Seminar is their equivalent to encampment. In fact, CAP cadets who complete AFJROTC SLS are eligible for encampment credit.

But not the ribbon

Correct.
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xray328
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2019, 08:29:36 PM »

Having just relocated to Marseilles Iím not sure how interested (if at all) the summer encampment folks are in relocating again.  And of course thatís assuming theyíd even have us.  This SLS course might be enough for one year for the folks that host it (as in they wouldnít want us there).  The activity could also already be at capacity.


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MSG Mac
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2019, 09:04:45 PM »

Having just relocated to Marseilles Iím not sure how interested (if at all) the summer encampment folks are in relocating again.  And of course thatís assuming theyíd even have us.  This SLS course might be enough for one year for the folks that host it (as in they wouldnít want us there).  The activity could also already be at capacity.


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But they donít get the Encampment Ribbon.
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Michael P. McEleney
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Jester
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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2019, 11:31:50 PM »

Having just relocated to Marseilles Iím not sure how interested (if at all) the summer encampment folks are in relocating again.  And of course thatís assuming theyíd even have us.  This SLS course might be enough for one year for the folks that host it (as in they wouldnít want us there).  The activity could also already be at capacity.


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Thatís the vibe I got from the base commander. 

For a relatively small base, Scott is insanely busy with AMC HQ, TRANSCOM HQ, AF Reserve and ANG, an active duty mission, etc.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2019, 11:45:58 PM »

Which goes back to my original post of the base may not be able to support it.
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Toad1168
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2019, 01:59:52 PM »

We still have plenty of room at the Missouri Wing encampment.  Its only a short drive down 44 to Fort Leonard Wood.  20-27 July, but registration closes 30 June.  http://ctg.mowgcap.us/
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xray328
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2019, 02:06:42 PM »

We still have plenty of room at the Missouri Wing encampment.  Its only a short drive down 44 to Fort Leonard Wood.  20-27 July, but registration closes 30 June.  http://ctg.mowgcap.us/

That defeats the purpose, again an Army post.  The point was to try to get the cadets to an Air Force installation. ILWG has plenty of room at its summer encampment.


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GroundHawg
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2019, 03:45:46 PM »

I have been to multiple encampments over the years, and all except 91 at WPAFB have been on Army installations.  Ft. Knox, Ft. Campbell, Camp Atterbury, and WHFRTC.  Ironically, I never went to an encampment at the base I was stationed at when on active duty. I loved my time at Army based CAP encampments  and they were very gracious hosts. They loved having us there and went out of their way to accommodate us. We had Kiowa and Blackhawk orientation flights, rode in tanks and had a competition in the tank simulators, went down the rappel towers, qualified on the ranges, pathfinder and sling-load operations classes, had Blackhats run PT with us, got to watch JTACs call in A-10's on the ranges (why I went that route when I enlisted actually), toured the base fire houses and put out fires in full turnout gear, went to the Patton Museum, and tons of other things that we really wouldn't have ever experienced on an AF base. I dont think one is necessarily better than the other, just different.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2019, 06:21:03 PM »

WPAFB is pretty good for Encampment, considering the activities there are to do in addition to just room inspections and drill: museum tour, security forces, base honor guard, etc.

The issue we have with WPAFB is that we don't have on-post housing. We have to use the nearby Wright State University dormitories, which is a logistical challenge (transporting cadets to and from post by bus multiple times a day), and it's very costly.

The Encampment cost for OHWG this year is $265, which isn't cheap.
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tribalelder
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« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2019, 09:08:22 PM »

ILWG encampment was at Scott in 1966 and at now-gone Chanute  in 1968. Illinois held a Spring encampment for many years at Great Lakes Naval Training Center. Illinois held summer encampments at Alpena (1969 or 1970) Ft. McCoy(at least a ten year run) and Marseilles. Itís all about where facilities are available.

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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2019, 12:04:35 AM »


The Encampment cost for OHWG this year is $265, which isn't cheap.

This is what I donít get. Why does Encampment get rated on a scale of cheapness? Who says it has to be cheap?

I just checked a Boy Scout registration website for Ohio. It came in at $315. Thatís a $50 difference. And...adults get a break in costs for staffing the camps (possibly from Scout registrations subsidizing their own staffing costs, but I donít know. But their is nothing evil in that).

So, BSA in one Ohio Council alone has 7 camps, with people gladly paying $315. Meanwhile, CAP will always show angst when the fee ď...isnít cheap.Ē  What could CAP do with an extra $50 (or even $30, $20) per head? Probably a lot, but it takes a leap and good budgeting to find out.

I just donít get it.



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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2019, 01:43:22 AM »


The Encampment cost for OHWG this year is $265, which isn't cheap.

This is what I donít get. Why does Encampment get rated on a scale of cheapness? Who says it has to be cheap?

I just checked a Boy Scout registration website for Ohio. It came in at $315. Thatís a $50 difference. And...adults get a break in costs for staffing the camps (possibly from Scout registrations subsidizing their own staffing costs, but I donít know. But their is nothing evil in that).

So, BSA in one Ohio Council alone has 7 camps, with people gladly paying $315. Meanwhile, CAP will always show angst when the fee ď...isnít cheap.Ē  What could CAP do with an extra $50 (or even $30, $20) per head? Probably a lot, but it takes a leap and good budgeting to find out.

I just donít get it.

Encampment does cost just $265. It costs well beyond that. $265 is just the registration fee alone.

For a first year cadet to attend Encampment:
$40 membership fee
$265 Encampment fee
$633 for uniform items off the Encampment packing list (I subtracted $100 for the Curry voucher)
*Excludes optional items (poncho, camelbak, etc), PT wear, bedding, and hygiene/personal care items

This is the cost for a brand-new parent with zero guidance on shopping around getting mostly everything off Vanguard (CAP's official uniform supplier). Excludes shipping costs.

That's nearing $950 someone might incur, say, if they get their Curry 30 days before Encampment begins. Our last Great Start ran from March through May. In a 90-day period, that's what a parent may have spent.
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xSpecialist
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2019, 02:07:06 PM »

In my Squadron 2 new cadets just joined a few weeks ago, and Encampment is this week. So.... not a lot of time.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2019, 03:21:57 PM »


The Encampment cost for OHWG this year is $265, which isn't cheap.

This is what I donít get. Why does Encampment get rated on a scale of cheapness? Who says it has to be cheap?

I just checked a Boy Scout registration website for Ohio. It came in at $315. Thatís a $50 difference. And...adults get a break in costs for staffing the camps (possibly from Scout registrations subsidizing their own staffing costs, but I donít know. But their is nothing evil in that).

So, BSA in one Ohio Council alone has 7 camps, with people gladly paying $315. Meanwhile, CAP will always show angst when the fee ď...isnít cheap.Ē  What could CAP do with an extra $50 (or even $30, $20) per head? Probably a lot, but it takes a leap and good budgeting to find out.

I just donít get it.

Encampment does cost just $265. It costs well beyond that. $265 is just the registration fee alone.

For a first year cadet to attend Encampment:
$40 membership fee
$265 Encampment fee
$633 for uniform items off the Encampment packing list (I subtracted $100 for the Curry voucher)
*Excludes optional items (poncho, camelbak, etc), PT wear, bedding, and hygiene/personal care items

This is the cost for a brand-new parent with zero guidance on shopping around getting mostly everything off Vanguard (CAP's official uniform supplier). Excludes shipping costs.

That's nearing $950 someone might incur, say, if they get their Curry 30 days before Encampment begins. Our last Great Start ran from March through May. In a 90-day period, that's what a parent may have spent.

and...the Boy Scouts arenít showing up at their camp naked, either. They also have other expenses besides camp registration fees.

I donít know how relevant it is to cite what a parent ď...may have spent.Ē There are others who ď...may have spentĒ less. In fact, there are some who ď...may have spentĒ quite little, depending on ability to get uniforms issued/loaned.

At any rate, my point is that CAP has been chasing low costs and trembling in fear of ďtoo expensiveĒ for at least as long as I go back (1967) while other youth programs budget and save where they can, but ultimately charge what it costs without apologizing for it - and people show up.


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Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2019, 12:08:56 AM »

That's a fair point. I yield.

I'll say, it's definitely better to discuss this stuff up front before applications are even turned in than to blast them with a supply list 30 days out and get bombarded by parents who start shouting "But I already just paid (x-amount)!"

I had a parent who came up to me a few weeks ago asking about signing up his cadet (didn't matter that Encampment was already closed for registration and additional sign-ups would be waitlisted)...anyway...dad said that the cadet didn't have all of the required items on the packing list and didn't really want to spend the cash in such a tight timeframe. I fully understand. Okay, so don't go to Encampment right now. Go next year, or maybe go to one later in the year and just pick up odds and ends over a few months rather than all at once. Not the end of the world.

One thing that we're blessed with at our unit is an awesome parents booster that helps raise a lot of funds which go to cutting activity costs. We've ran nearly two...three?...years now without cadets having to pay anything at squadron activities. For Encampment, we're covering $125 this year per cadet, which is nearly half the cost. We could probably afford to cover all of it, but then we're eating into the budget for other activities that all squadron cadets can participate in.

Costs can always be offset by fundraising. You just have to know where to get the money.
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2019, 01:04:01 PM »

lol
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Encampment at Scott AFB
 


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